Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Skipper wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:


Any auto is inherently dangerous for the occasional user *particularly*
in a stressful situation. The double action is much safer. Further, the
persuasive nature of the laser cannot be underestimated to defuse the
situation. The better *defensive* weapon is the S&W.


Why do you think an auto is more dangerous?


Far more likely to fire an unintended round while aimed at the perp.
Both guns can kill, the double action is the safer gun in the hands of a
nervous owner...for obvious reasons. There must be the threat of bodily
harm *before* pulling the trigger.

--
Skipper

You probably meant to say "Double action only" and they are safer but
too slow for home defense. How much time do you think you have to react
to a threat? If you have enough time, you avoid it and call the cops.

Dan

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Dan Krueger" wrote in message
nk.net...
Skipper wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:


Any auto is inherently dangerous for the occasional user *particularly*
in a stressful situation. The double action is much safer. Further, the
persuasive nature of the laser cannot be underestimated to defuse the
situation. The better *defensive* weapon is the S&W.


Why do you think an auto is more dangerous?


Far more likely to fire an unintended round while aimed at the perp.
Both guns can kill, the double action is the safer gun in the hands of a
nervous owner...for obvious reasons. There must be the threat of bodily
harm *before* pulling the trigger.

--
Skipper

You probably meant to say "Double action only" and they are safer but too
slow for home defense. How much time do you think you have to react to a
threat? If you have enough time, you avoid it and call the cops.

Dan

He was comparing a double action revolver to some other thing. At least
that's how I interpreted what he said.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Dan Krueger" wrote in message
nk.net...
Harry Krause wrote:

Skipper wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

I've fitted Crimson Trace Laser grips to my S/W .357 magnum on the
theory that once the perp realizes there is a bright red dot moving
about the middle of his chest a motivation change will result. Thus,
no
need to pull the trigger...the ultimate *defensive* weapon.


When did you get a pardon? Ex-felons aren't usually allowed ownership
of
handguns. Even wheel guns.


So, which is the better *defensive* handgun, a S&W .357 mag fitted with
laser grips or a Glock auto?

--
Skipper


I'd take a Glock 34 any day over that wheelgun. Fully legal mag on the
Glock holds 17 rounds, standard barrel is 5" long, and if you need them,
lasergrips are available. Oh, and my guess is the semi-auto mechanism is
inherently more accurate than the wheelgun's.

You have a single or double action wheelgun? If double, you keep a
chamber empty for safety's sake? If so, that means the G34 mag holds more
than three times the number of rounds.


How is that 17 round magazine legal? Pre-ban?

I'm not sure how you can say the semi-auto is "inherently" more accurate
than a revolver. A barrel is a barrel. The same bullets pass through
them.

Dan

I think Harry never saw Elmer Keith shoot moving dishes out of the air using
a 4" or 6" revolver. Very quickly, too.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Don White" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Don White" wrote in message
...

Lord Reginald Smithers wrote:

Bill,
Harry is not anti-handgun, he likes to shot handguns. He just doesn't
want anyone else to own a handgun.



..or at least, none of the gun happy righties.


I resent that remark. I own a gun primarily to deal with a situation
which I know is coming soon: I will walk into the living room to
discuss something briefly with my son, who will be in TV coma mode. His
only response will be "Uh huh.....OK". You've seen this - you know the
teenager has absolutely no idea what you just said. I will then hand
him the shooting glasses and hearing protector things and tell him to
put them on. He'll say "Uh huh" and mindlessly obey. I will then shoot
the TV.

Televisions are so cheap that it would be worth $300 bucks just to see
the look on his face, and get perhaps get a week or three of
attentiveness out of him.

:-)
Might be better to take your angle cutter pliers and cut the plug off.

That would be cheaper, I guess, and not so much cleanup afterward.


But not point making!


I'm open to any and all theatrical suggestions. :)

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Bill McKee wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
John H. wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:26:50 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Don White wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
Bert Robbins wrote:

"Jim Carter" wrote in message
...

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
. ..

It means they were properly trained to handle and use firearms.

One shot, one kill.
I had heard on the news today that there were many shots fired.
Does that
mean that several people were killed that we don't know about?
It means that when you fire your weapon you hit what you are
aiming at.

If six guys aimed at the same person then that person should have
six bullets in him.


Something you learned from your years of weekend warrior combat
experience guarding the loo, Bertie?

Bert would have lobbed half a dozen artillery shells at the
hapless victim...from a safe distance of course.

I have a feeling Bert would need a half dozen boxes of ammo to hit
the side of a barn. Accuracy with firearms requires regular practice.
I go to one of three ranges at least once a month, year-around. Most
of the cops I see at the ranges are there about every other week.
I've asked them about that. It's fun to shoot with cops, because they
sometimes have "unusual" guns with them, and they'll let you pop off
a few rounds if they recognize you and you ask.
LOL!

What a joke!

--


You planning to meet me at the Gilbert range near you, to show off your
military prowess with a handgun, Herring?

I also go out to the Blue Ridge facility in Chantilly. I've not seen
you there, either. Or at the MSAR.

I suspect what you shoot off these days is...your mouth.

This, by a person who is anti-handgun?

I'm not anti-handgun.
I'm anti-any-idiot-who-can-breathe-being-able-to-buy-one.
I used to be totally against private ownership of handguns, but
unlike your president, I am capable of learning and have modified my
views over the years. I am still, however, opposed to private citizens
owning fully auto handguns or rifles.
I prefer shotguns for home defense.
I've shot firearms for fun most of my life, mostly shotguns.



So gun nut lefties are OK.


Nobody remembers the Weathermen?

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Harry Krause wrote:

Dan Krueger wrote:


I'd take a Glock 34 any day over that wheelgun. Fully legal mag on
the Glock holds 17 rounds, standard barrel is 5" long, and if you
need them, lasergrips are available. Oh, and my guess is the
semi-auto mechanism is inherently more accurate than the wheelgun's.

You have a single or double action wheelgun? If double, you keep a
chamber empty for safety's sake? If so, that means the G34 mag holds
more than three times the number of rounds.


How is that 17 round magazine legal? Pre-ban?


Nope. Perfectly legal in Maryland.


I'm not sure how you can say the semi-auto is "inherently" more
accurate than a revolver. A barrel is a barrel. The same bullets
pass through them.

Dan

Dan


How they get to the barrel matters.



How does that affect the accuracy? They still all pass though a barrel.

I know how that can affect the reliability, but that tend to favor the
revolver.

Dan

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Harry Krause wrote:

Dan Krueger wrote:


I'd take a Glock 34 any day over that wheelgun. Fully legal mag on
the Glock holds 17 rounds, standard barrel is 5" long, and if you
need them, lasergrips are available. Oh, and my guess is the
semi-auto mechanism is inherently more accurate than the wheelgun's.

You have a single or double action wheelgun? If double, you keep a
chamber empty for safety's sake? If so, that means the G34 mag holds
more than three times the number of rounds.


How is that 17 round magazine legal? Pre-ban?


Nope. Perfectly legal in Maryland.


I always thought that was a federal law. Here's what I found on it:

"When Browning had to come up with a ten round magazine to satisfy the
demands of Clinton's 1994 law, they put a little spring on the bottom. I
don't mean to be uncomplimentary when I say it resembles a rat-trap."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...112128013/pg_2

Dan

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 21:20:51 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:


Dan Krueger wrote:

I'd take a Glock 34 any day over that wheelgun. Fully legal mag on the
Glock holds 17 rounds, standard barrel is 5" long, and if you need them,
lasergrips are available. Oh, and my guess is the semi-auto mechanism is
inherently more accurate than the wheelgun's.

You have a single or double action wheelgun? If double, you keep a
chamber empty for safety's sake? If so, that means the G34 mag holds
more than three times the number of rounds.


How is that 17 round magazine legal? Pre-ban?

Nope. Perfectly legal in Maryland.


I'm not sure how you can say the semi-auto is "inherently" more accurate
than a revolver. A barrel is a barrel. The same bullets pass through them.

How they get to the barrel matters.


True. However, I much prefer revolvers because they are simpler,
easier to reload (quicker actually) and easier to handle.

Their major disadvantage is number of rounds, but accuracy more than
makes up for it.

I own more than a few guns and I use them for sport. I do keep one or
two around for self defense but that's another thread.

I have revolvers and semi-auto's. How do you figure that the revolvers
are more accurate? Trigger pull is similar as are the lengths of the
barrels. What am I missing?

Dan

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

Doug Kanter wrote:


Sounds better the more I think about it.

About 6 years ago, my son hit me in the cohones with a hardball during
pitching practice and I ripped him a new asshole, as was appropriate. He
learned some new words that day. I felt terrible, though, and a few days
later, I was discussing it with some friends over beer. My friend Mike made
an interesting observation based on his experiences in his enormous extended
family. When things get bad with a kid, mothers will *usually* ramp up the
response slowly, from calmly correcting the kid, through various levels, and
finally blowing up. Fathers usually go from calm to "holy ****" much faster.
I think this is true, and it's not a problem. Kids should know that in a
previous life, their fathers were cave men, and might react in "interesting"
ways. Not violent toward the kids, but interesting.

I think my son learned well. Three years ago, we were at a boat launch in
the Adirondacks. The boat was out of the water, I was securing things, and
he was mindlessly staring at the sky or some chick in a bikini, when I saw
two pit bulls running toward him. The gun was out of the holster instantly,
I yelled to the owner to stop the dogs, and he did. If those dogs had come
within 20 feet of my son, they would've been dropped, followed closely by
their owner sucking on the barrel until the police arrived. My son flipped
out at the idea that I was ready to kill the dogs. But, as I explained,
there was no other possible option, other than wait and see if they were
vicious. It took him a couple of days to see the logic, but he finally did.


You were packin' a gun in it's holster at a boat launch?
Up here that would cause some commotion!

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Don White" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:


Sounds better the more I think about it.

About 6 years ago, my son hit me in the cohones with a hardball during
pitching practice and I ripped him a new asshole, as was appropriate. He
learned some new words that day. I felt terrible, though, and a few days
later, I was discussing it with some friends over beer. My friend Mike
made an interesting observation based on his experiences in his enormous
extended family. When things get bad with a kid, mothers will *usually*
ramp up the response slowly, from calmly correcting the kid, through
various levels, and finally blowing up. Fathers usually go from calm to
"holy ****" much faster. I think this is true, and it's not a problem.
Kids should know that in a previous life, their fathers were cave men,
and might react in "interesting" ways. Not violent toward the kids, but
interesting.

I think my son learned well. Three years ago, we were at a boat launch in
the Adirondacks. The boat was out of the water, I was securing things,
and he was mindlessly staring at the sky or some chick in a bikini, when
I saw two pit bulls running toward him. The gun was out of the holster
instantly, I yelled to the owner to stop the dogs, and he did. If those
dogs had come within 20 feet of my son, they would've been dropped,
followed closely by their owner sucking on the barrel until the police
arrived. My son flipped out at the idea that I was ready to kill the
dogs. But, as I explained, there was no other possible option, other than
wait and see if they were vicious. It took him a couple of days to see
the logic, but he finally did.
You were packin' a gun in it's holster at a boat launch?
Up here that would cause some commotion!

In NY, they have to be concealed. No commotion before, and only a bit
surprisingly, not much after, either. There were just 3 "sets" of people
there, and it's a place where guns are seen more often than in cities. The
gun was along for the ride because we were tying up to shore to fish, and
bears have been known to express an interest in fishermen in that area. I
have no delusions about this particular gun being a great solution in such a
scenario, but some rangers say just the noise is enough to scare a bear
away. Or, it ****es off the bear and she shoves the gun up your ass. :-)

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:

Skipper wrote:

So, which is the better *defensive* handgun, a S&W .357 mag fitted with
laser grips or a Glock auto?

.357 mag revolver or a .44 mag revolver.

Simple, effective and never break down.

"I know what you're thinkin', punk. You're thinkin', did he fire six
shots or only five? And to tell you the truth, I forgot myself in all
this excitement. But bein' this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful
handgun in the world, and it'll blow your head clean off, you could ask
yourself a question. Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

- Harry Callahan

--
Skipper

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Dan Krueger wrote:

Laser sights are worthless in the daytime. They are also worthless for
a gun purchased for personal or home protection.

Read...and learn:

http://www.crimsontrace.com/5things.pdf

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/crimson_trace.htm

http://www.uws.com/LASERGRIPS/HomePage.html

http://hunting.about.com/library/wee...lasergrips.htm

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...1/ai_n14936942

Laser sights project a tiny dot on the target. Unlike the movies, there
is no fog or smoke to project a beam. It's a dot and the target would
have to see it. By that time you're dead unless you are confronting an
unarmed assailant or someone with a butcher knife who is 100 feet away.

Incorrect, the dot can be seen.

--
Skipper

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Doug Kanter wrote:

Far more likely to fire an unintended round while aimed at the perp.
Both guns can kill, the double action is the safer gun in the hands of a
nervous owner...for obvious reasons. There must be the threat of bodily
harm *before* pulling the trigger.

Think about what you just said. "Far more likely to fire an unintended
round..."

Yes, the double action requires a determined trigger pull, while many
autos have hair triggers.

If you have a 6 shot revolver with 6 rounds loaded, it is ready to fire if
you pull the trigger. Unless it's one of the newer ones with a built-in key
lock, there is no safety. YOU are the safety.

Both my double action .38 Special and .357 S&Ws have a thumb safety.
Even my single action .44 Ruger has safety indents *between* the
chambered cartridges.

--
Skipper

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Bill McKee wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
John H. wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:26:50 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Don White wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
Bert Robbins wrote:

"Jim Carter" wrote in message
...

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
. ..

It means they were properly trained to handle and use firearms.

One shot, one kill.
I had heard on the news today that there were many shots fired.
Does that
mean that several people were killed that we don't know about?
It means that when you fire your weapon you hit what you are
aiming at.

If six guys aimed at the same person then that person should have
six bullets in him.


Something you learned from your years of weekend warrior combat
experience guarding the loo, Bertie?

Bert would have lobbed half a dozen artillery shells at the
hapless victim...from a safe distance of course.

I have a feeling Bert would need a half dozen boxes of ammo to hit
the side of a barn. Accuracy with firearms requires regular
practice. I go to one of three ranges at least once a month,
year-around. Most of the cops I see at the ranges are there about
every other week. I've asked them about that. It's fun to shoot with
cops, because they sometimes have "unusual" guns with them, and
they'll let you pop off a few rounds if they recognize you and you
ask.
LOL!

What a joke!

--


You planning to meet me at the Gilbert range near you, to show off
your military prowess with a handgun, Herring?

I also go out to the Blue Ridge facility in Chantilly. I've not seen
you there, either. Or at the MSAR.

I suspect what you shoot off these days is...your mouth.

This, by a person who is anti-handgun?

I'm not anti-handgun.
I'm anti-any-idiot-who-can-breathe-being-able-to-buy-one.
I used to be totally against private ownership of handguns, but
unlike your president, I am capable of learning and have modified my
views over the years. I am still, however, opposed to private citizens
owning fully auto handguns or rifles.
I prefer shotguns for home defense.
I've shot firearms for fun most of my life, mostly shotguns.



So gun nut lefties are OK.


Nobody remembers the Weathermen?


Actually we had a slew of those groups at the time. Besides the Weathermen
and the SLA.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 21:20:51 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Dan Krueger wrote:

I'd take a Glock 34 any day over that wheelgun. Fully legal mag on the
Glock holds 17 rounds, standard barrel is 5" long, and if you need
them,
lasergrips are available. Oh, and my guess is the semi-auto mechanism
is
inherently more accurate than the wheelgun's.

You have a single or double action wheelgun? If double, you keep a
chamber empty for safety's sake? If so, that means the G34 mag holds
more than three times the number of rounds.


How is that 17 round magazine legal? Pre-ban?

Nope. Perfectly legal in Maryland.


I'm not sure how you can say the semi-auto is "inherently" more accurate
than a revolver. A barrel is a barrel. The same bullets pass through
them.

How they get to the barrel matters.

True. However, I much prefer revolvers because they are simpler,
easier to reload (quicker actually) and easier to handle.

Their major disadvantage is number of rounds, but accuracy more than
makes up for it.

Revolvers are inherently more accurate due to construction. The barrel is
fixed. The older 1911 mdl colt 45 auto, suffered accuracy as the barrel
floated in the slide. It could move with the force of the propellant
expanding. They fixed this by adding a collet at the front of the barrel.
When the slide went forward, it locked the barrel in position. Is the Gold
Cup model.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Dan Krueger" wrote in message
nk.net...
Skipper wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:


Any auto is inherently dangerous for the occasional user *particularly*
in a stressful situation. The double action is much safer. Further, the
persuasive nature of the laser cannot be underestimated to defuse the
situation. The better *defensive* weapon is the S&W.


Why do you think an auto is more dangerous?


Far more likely to fire an unintended round while aimed at the perp.
Both guns can kill, the double action is the safer gun in the hands of a
nervous owner...for obvious reasons. There must be the threat of bodily
harm *before* pulling the trigger.

--
Skipper

You probably meant to say "Double action only" and they are safer but too
slow for home defense. How much time do you think you have to react to a
threat? If you have enough time, you avoid it and call the cops.

Dan

Single action would not be the greatest for home protection. May be safer.
Single action means you have to cock the gun, pull back the hammer for each
shot. A double action can be cocked like a single action, or pulling the
trigger also cocks the gun first. Cocking a revolver, also indexes the
cylinder to have the next chamber under the hammer. The single action would
be safer, as a kid would have to cock the gun first, instead of just pulling
the trigger to fire a round.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Skipper" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:

Far more likely to fire an unintended round while aimed at the perp.
Both guns can kill, the double action is the safer gun in the hands of a
nervous owner...for obvious reasons. There must be the threat of bodily
harm *before* pulling the trigger.

Think about what you just said. "Far more likely to fire an unintended
round..."

Yes, the double action requires a determined trigger pull, while many
autos have hair triggers.

If you have a 6 shot revolver with 6 rounds loaded, it is ready to fire
if
you pull the trigger. Unless it's one of the newer ones with a built-in
key
lock, there is no safety. YOU are the safety.

Both my double action .38 Special and .357 S&Ws have a thumb safety.
Even my single action .44 Ruger has safety indents *between* the
chambered cartridges.

--
Skipper

A double action revolver can also have a "hair trigger" Same as a single
action. The double if you are also using the trigger to cock the pistol,
does require more effort, but once the hammer is cocked, any gun can be set
up with a "hair trigger" And most autos don't have hair triggers as well as
revolvers. Just file the trigger sear a little and you can make it that
way, but most people don't.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Bill McKee wrote:

Yes, the double action requires a determined trigger pull, while many
autos have hair triggers.

A double action revolver can also have a "hair trigger" Same as a single
action. The double if you are also using the trigger to cock the pistol,
does require more effort, but once the hammer is cocked, any gun can be set
up with a "hair trigger" And most autos don't have hair triggers as well as
revolvers. Just file the trigger sear a little and you can make it that
way, but most people don't.

"Fill your hands you son of a b****".

- Rooster Cogburn

--
Skipper

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Harry Krause wrote:

A wheel gun isn't necessarily simpler than a modern semi-auto. When you
take the grip off a wheel gun, you see all sorts of pieces and parts to
operate the trigger and hammer, usually. And I would contend that a
semi is easier and faster to reload. With my thumb, I can push a button,
drop out an empty mag, and then slam in a full mag and rack the slide
faster than you can get six rounds into the average wheel gun.

Apparently, Krause has not even heard of speed loaders for revolvers.
But are they even needed in most defensive situations? Also noteworthy
that he had no retort to the key points being made he
http://www.crimsontrace.com/5things.pdf

--
Skipper

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Harry Krause wrote:

I've shot a couple of Browning HP's. They are fine pistols. But if I
were going to buy a handgun for defense, the first one on my list would
be a Glock in 9 mm, full frame. They are sturdy, elegantly simple,
reliable and accurate. They're not a race gun, but they're ideal for
their purpose.

Apparently Krause missed the following statement in that second URL I
sent him:

A SWAT Team Captain and Instructor writes:

"I teach basic to advanced building search classes and SWAT tactics. I
have been using the Crimson Trace laser on my Glock 17 for almost five
years now. [We will forgive the captain for his poor taste in guns for
now...] I use my weapon each time I instruct to demonstrate the use of
white light as well as the tactical advantage a laser sight has in a
CQB/building search environment."

--
Skipper

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Harry Krause wrote:

"I know what you're thinkin', punk. You're thinkin', did he fire six
shots or only five? And to tell you the truth, I forgot myself in all
this excitement. But bein' this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful
handgun in the world, and it'll blow your head clean off, you could ask
yourself a question. Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

- Harry Callahan

Great line, great delivery, but inaccurate. The .454 Casull, for one.
was and is "more powerful."

Let's see here...The .44 Mag will "blow his head clean off", and the
..454 Casull is *more* powerful...does that really make a difference?

--
Skipper

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:39:30 +0000, Bill McKee wrote:


And loaded with wad cutters with the hollow bottom. With the bullet
upside down. Otherwise you kill some poor neighbor 3 houses away after
the bullet has gone through the intruder and a few walls.

Anyone familiar with frangible bullets? I'm guessing that's what the Air
Marshals were using.

http://www.frangiblebullets.com/

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Harry Krause wrote:

Yes, the double action requires a determined trigger pull, while many
autos have hair triggers.

Hair trigger? You mean a trigger that requires an extremely light pull?
Almost any handgun can be modified so that it has what you probably mean
by "hair trigger." Trigger pulls on many revolvers are easily
adjustable. There are huge "sections" on many gunsmithing discussion
groups on lightening trigger pull on "sixguns" used in cowboy action
competition. Your premise is wrong, as is your conclusion. More
misinformed Skipper b.s.

Did you miss the mention of double action? Do you know what that means?
Next time, please put your brain in gear before engaging that keyboard.

Both my double action .38 Special and .357 S&Ws have a thumb safety.
Even my single action .44 Ruger has safety indents *between* the
chambered cartridges.

The handguns I shoot have a better safety.

Oh, I'm sure you have better 'stuff' than anyone else, Krause.

I keep my finger off the trigger until I am ready to fire. That way,
the gun cannot go off unless I make it go off.

And I'm sure you'll remember that in the heat of battle.

One of the Ruger semis I play with has a thumb safety. I never bother
with it. Again, if my finger is not inside the trigger guard,
I am not planning to shoot. If it is, I am about to shoot.

Must be a terrible burden to be so gifted, Krause.

Even though I had years of experience with shotguns before taking up
handguns, I still enrolled in an eight hour individual handgun training
course taught by a an experienced instructor. We spent most of the first
session on semi auto handgun safety, including clearing jams, stovepipes,
misfires, et cetera. The last hour of that first session was on the
range, where he'd hand me mags "with problems" to slap into the
handgun I was using.

Very commendable that you enrolled in a basic gun safety course.

On the outdoor ranges I visit, if the range master sees anyone walking
or standing around with their finger inside the trigger guard, they're
told to leave for the day.

You're allowed to walk away from shooting positions with a gun in your
hand AND clip or cylinder engaged? Interesting range master you have
there, Krause.

Methinks your handgun experience is like your boating experience,
Snipper. You haven't any.

Whatever.

BTW, J. Curtis Earl was an old family friend we knew for over 4 decades.
It was through him that I initially got involved in shooting sports. Do
you know who he was or about his guns?

--
Skipper

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Skipper" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:

Far more likely to fire an unintended round while aimed at the perp.
Both guns can kill, the double action is the safer gun in the hands of a
nervous owner...for obvious reasons. There must be the threat of bodily
harm *before* pulling the trigger.

Think about what you just said. "Far more likely to fire an unintended
round..."

Yes, the double action requires a determined trigger pull, while many
autos have hair triggers.

If you have a 6 shot revolver with 6 rounds loaded, it is ready to fire
if
you pull the trigger. Unless it's one of the newer ones with a built-in
key
lock, there is no safety. YOU are the safety.

Both my double action .38 Special and .357 S&Ws have a thumb safety.
Even my single action .44 Ruger has safety indents *between* the
chambered cartridges.

--
Skipper

Your DA revolvers have a mechanical switch that moves, thereby preventing
them from firing?

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 02:43:53 GMT, Dan Krueger
wrote:

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 21:20:51 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:


Dan Krueger wrote:

I'd take a Glock 34 any day over that wheelgun. Fully legal mag on the
Glock holds 17 rounds, standard barrel is 5" long, and if you need
them,
lasergrips are available. Oh, and my guess is the semi-auto mechanism
is
inherently more accurate than the wheelgun's.

You have a single or double action wheelgun? If double, you keep a
chamber empty for safety's sake? If so, that means the G34 mag holds
more than three times the number of rounds.


How is that 17 round magazine legal? Pre-ban?

Nope. Perfectly legal in Maryland.


I'm not sure how you can say the semi-auto is "inherently" more
accurate
than a revolver. A barrel is a barrel. The same bullets pass through
them.

How they get to the barrel matters.


True. However, I much prefer revolvers because they are simpler,
easier to reload (quicker actually) and easier to handle.

Their major disadvantage is number of rounds, but accuracy more than
makes up for it.

I own more than a few guns and I use them for sport. I do keep one or
two around for self defense but that's another thread.

I have revolvers and semi-auto's. How do you figure that the revolvers
are more accurate? Trigger pull is similar as are the lengths of the
barrels. What am I missing?

Call it an old man's preference. Bill pretty much explained it,
revolvers have a fixed barrel where the old semi-autos didn't. Back
in the day, I couldn't hit the side of a barn with the venerable .45
Navy 1911. In fact, I had a hard time qualifying with it. With a
revolver, I had no problem. I know other guys who had the same
problem.

I've found that most folks who don't shoot on a regular basis can
focus better on the end of an open barrel than along a rail like a
semi-auto has. Another issue in accuracy is the tendency for people
with high capacity mags tend to spray rather than aim - a revolver
forces you to aim - you just can't spray bullets all over the place.

As to reload, 8 out of 10 times, I can reload my .357 mag and .44 mag
faster than the top state cop who just happens to belong to my rod and
gun club. I won't even begin to tell you that I can shoot more
rounds than he can, but under pressure, I'm more accurate.

Later,

Tom

I think some of these people have never seen or used a speedloader. They
work just fine. But, the real issue is this: In the vast majority of gun
confrontations involving citizens, only 2-3 rounds are fired. If anyone
needs documentation for this, all they need to do is read the reports in the
monthly NRA magazine. High capacity magazines are fun to use, but their
tactical advantage is really only for cops.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Dan Krueger wrote:
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 21:20:51 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:


Dan Krueger wrote:

I'd take a Glock 34 any day over that wheelgun. Fully legal mag on
the Glock holds 17 rounds, standard barrel is 5" long, and if you
need them, lasergrips are available. Oh, and my guess is the
semi-auto mechanism is inherently more accurate than the wheelgun's.

You have a single or double action wheelgun? If double, you keep a
chamber empty for safety's sake? If so, that means the G34 mag holds
more than three times the number of rounds.

How is that 17 round magazine legal? Pre-ban?
Nope. Perfectly legal in Maryland.


I'm not sure how you can say the semi-auto is "inherently" more
accurate than a revolver. A barrel is a barrel. The same bullets
pass through them.
How they get to the barrel matters.

True. However, I much prefer revolvers because they are simpler,
easier to reload (quicker actually) and easier to handle.

Their major disadvantage is number of rounds, but accuracy more than
makes up for it.

I own more than a few guns and I use them for sport. I do keep one or
two around for self defense but that's another thread.

I have revolvers and semi-auto's. How do you figure that the revolvers
are more accurate? Trigger pull is similar as are the lengths of the
barrels. What am I missing?

Dan


In a revolver, there is a bit of space between the business end of the
cylinder and the back end of the barrel, where the bullet enters after the
hammer strikes the round. The lineup between the bullet and the barrel
isn't always perfect. Off even a bit matters, especially in match
contents. In a semi auto, the round is fully in the barrel before it is
set off.

That's mostly a problem with either cheap guns, or old guns that have
digested thousands of rounds. It's called "timing". Once fixed, it stays
fixed for quite a long time.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Dan Krueger wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:

Dan Krueger wrote:

I'd take a Glock 34 any day over that wheelgun. Fully legal mag on the
Glock holds 17 rounds, standard barrel is 5" long, and if you need
them, lasergrips are available. Oh, and my guess is the semi-auto
mechanism is inherently more accurate than the wheelgun's.

You have a single or double action wheelgun? If double, you keep a
chamber empty for safety's sake? If so, that means the G34 mag holds
more than three times the number of rounds.

How is that 17 round magazine legal? Pre-ban?

Nope. Perfectly legal in Maryland.


I always thought that was a federal law. Here's what I found on it:

"When Browning had to come up with a ten round magazine to satisfy the
demands of Clinton's 1994 law, they put a little spring on the bottom. I
don't mean to be uncomplimentary when I say it resembles a rat-trap."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...112128013/pg_2

Dan


Thanks for the article. Massad Ayoob is definitely "the man," or at least
one of them. The "law" limiting the capacity of magazines expired. States
now regulate the max capacity. In Maryland, a 17-rounder is ok. I think
the limit here is a 20-rounder. There are 33-round mags available (in
Virginia, for example), but not in this state.

I've shot a couple of Browning HP's. They are fine pistols. But if I were
going to buy a handgun for defense, the first one on my list would be a
Glock in 9 mm, full frame. They are sturdy, elegantly simple, reliable and
accurate. They're not a race gun, but they're ideal for their purpose.

The rule is that you're better off carrying a gun you're comfortable with,
as opposed to no gun. But still, you'd be better off with a .40 cal or .45
cal Glock. 9mm is a pretty anemic round for defense, which is why so many
police departments have abandoned it.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:39:30 +0000, Bill McKee wrote:


And loaded with wad cutters with the hollow bottom. With the bullet
upside down. Otherwise you kill some poor neighbor 3 houses away after
the bullet has gone through the intruder and a few walls.

Anyone familiar with frangible bullets? I'm guessing that's what the Air
Marshals were using.

http://www.frangiblebullets.com/

They use something like that, although not necessarily from that
manufacturer, and they don't concern themselves with the lead-free aspect.
Glaser makes one called the Safety Slug, designed to disintegrate completely
in the body and not pass through. And, Remington's versions are more
traditional hollow points which tend not to pass through, either. It's a
matter of matching exactly the right ammo with the gun in question, in order
to achieve the right velocity to produce good expansion.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Skipper wrote:
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:

Skipper wrote:

So, which is the better *defensive* handgun, a S&W .357 mag fitted with
laser grips or a Glock auto?

.357 mag revolver or a .44 mag revolver.

Simple, effective and never break down.

"I know what you're thinkin', punk. You're thinkin', did he fire six
shots or only five? And to tell you the truth, I forgot myself in all
this excitement. But bein' this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful
handgun in the world, and it'll blow your head clean off, you could ask
yourself a question. Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

- Harry Callahan

--
Skipper


Great line, great delivery, but inaccurate. The .454 Casull, for one. was
and is "more powerful."

Not sure, but I don't think that load existed at the time the movie was
made.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Skipper wrote:

Methinks your handgun experience is like your boating experience,
Snipper. You haven't any.

Whatever.

BTW, J. Curtis Earl was an old family friend we knew for over 4 decades.
It was through him that I initially got involved in shooting sports. Do
you know who he was or about his guns?

Here is a streaming video of what's left of his collection:

http://www.idahohistory.net/earl.html

The video really doesn't do the collection justice. He'd been harassed
by liberals in the ATF for decades and they'd confiscated his collection
several times. His collection was *much* larger before these
confiscation's, and included the Midas Thompson, arms from Hitler's
bunker, and the original machine guns from Folsom Prison.

Curtis died a couple years ago...I miss that great guy! Here's some more
info on him and his collection: http://tinyurl.com/aue2l Can you
imagine...250 Thompsons in one collection!

--
Skipper

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Harry Krause wrote:

Your average Happy Homeowner who hears something go bump in the night in
his house isn't going to be adept with speedloaders, and I doubt you
are, either. Remember, we were talking about ease of use.

I believe most folks who own handguns *are* familiar with
speedloaders...and they are easy to use.

As for your pimping for little red lights, that's your business. Anyone
who breaks into my house at night is going to be facing the business end
of a 12-gauge shotgun. If that isn't enough to give him pause, I doubt a
little red light held by a limpwristed old fart like you is going to do
the job.

As usual, we disagree again...this time on the better defensive arm. And
as usual, you are wrong yet again!

--
Skipper

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

Gotta wonder if those sky marshalls were ever in the National Guard or
Reserves. They sure do seem gun happy.

"Gun happy?"

This is the firest incident I've ever heard of an air marshal pulling a
gun...let alone shooting someone....

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Bill,
Do they still make single action. I thought the invention of the double
action saw the end of the single action.


"Bill McKee" wrote in message
k.net...

"Dan Krueger" wrote in message
nk.net...
Skipper wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:


Any auto is inherently dangerous for the occasional user *particularly*
in a stressful situation. The double action is much safer. Further, the
persuasive nature of the laser cannot be underestimated to defuse the
situation. The better *defensive* weapon is the S&W.


Why do you think an auto is more dangerous?


Far more likely to fire an unintended round while aimed at the perp.
Both guns can kill, the double action is the safer gun in the hands of a
nervous owner...for obvious reasons. There must be the threat of bodily
harm *before* pulling the trigger.

--
Skipper

You probably meant to say "Double action only" and they are safer but too
slow for home defense. How much time do you think you have to react to a
threat? If you have enough time, you avoid it and call the cops.

Dan

Single action would not be the greatest for home protection. May be
safer. Single action means you have to cock the gun, pull back the hammer
for each shot. A double action can be cocked like a single action, or
pulling the trigger also cocks the gun first. Cocking a revolver, also
indexes the cylinder to have the next chamber under the hammer. The
single action would be safer, as a kid would have to cock the gun first,
instead of just pulling the trigger to fire a round.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Dan Krueger wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:

Dan Krueger wrote:

I'd take a Glock 34 any day over that wheelgun. Fully legal mag on
the Glock holds 17 rounds, standard barrel is 5" long, and if you
need them, lasergrips are available. Oh, and my guess is the
semi-auto mechanism is inherently more accurate than the wheelgun's.

You have a single or double action wheelgun? If double, you keep a
chamber empty for safety's sake? If so, that means the G34 mag holds
more than three times the number of rounds.

How is that 17 round magazine legal? Pre-ban?
Nope. Perfectly legal in Maryland.

I always thought that was a federal law. Here's what I found on it:

"When Browning had to come up with a ten round magazine to satisfy the
demands of Clinton's 1994 law, they put a little spring on the bottom.
I don't mean to be uncomplimentary when I say it resembles a rat-trap."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...112128013/pg_2

Dan

Thanks for the article. Massad Ayoob is definitely "the man," or at
least one of them. The "law" limiting the capacity of magazines expired.
States now regulate the max capacity. In Maryland, a 17-rounder is ok. I
think the limit here is a 20-rounder. There are 33-round mags available
(in Virginia, for example), but not in this state.

I've shot a couple of Browning HP's. They are fine pistols. But if I
were going to buy a handgun for defense, the first one on my list would
be a Glock in 9 mm, full frame. They are sturdy, elegantly simple,
reliable and accurate. They're not a race gun, but they're ideal for
their purpose.

The rule is that you're better off carrying a gun you're comfortable
with, as opposed to no gun. But still, you'd be better off with a .40 cal
or .45 cal Glock. 9mm is a pretty anemic round for defense, which is why
so many police departments have abandoned it.

Well, there's always lots of discussion about police and calibers. From
what I have seen on the local police range, the problem is not throw
weight but lack of practice.

There's a store here that sells only police accessories. There's a sign on
the door saying "No Loaded Guns Except Police". The owner says he's seen the
cops violate far more safety rules than civilians as they remove their guns
to try them in new holsters. But, his wife wants the sign left up.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Skipper wrote:
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:

Skipper wrote:
So, which is the better *defensive* handgun, a S&W .357 mag fitted
with
laser grips or a Glock auto?
.357 mag revolver or a .44 mag revolver.
Simple, effective and never break down.
"I know what you're thinkin', punk. You're thinkin', did he fire six
shots or only five? And to tell you the truth, I forgot myself in all
this excitement. But bein' this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful
handgun in the world, and it'll blow your head clean off, you could ask
yourself a question. Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

- Harry Callahan

--
Skipper

Great line, great delivery, but inaccurate. The .454 Casull, for one.
was and is "more powerful."

Not sure, but I don't think that load existed at the time the movie was
made.


Dick Casull developed the .454 Casull in 1957 and announced it in 1959 in
Guns and Ammo magazine. If I'm on your "holiday shopping list," I'd like a
454 wheelgun from Freedom Arms.

I stand corrected!

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Harry,
This is a great thread. It is nice to see rec.boats rabid anti-handgun
promoter, rabid anti-owners of handguns has become such a big promoter of
the sport of target shooting targets.

What happened to bring about this conversion?


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Dan Krueger wrote:
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 21:20:51 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:


Dan Krueger wrote:

I'd take a Glock 34 any day over that wheelgun. Fully legal mag on
the Glock holds 17 rounds, standard barrel is 5" long, and if you
need them, lasergrips are available. Oh, and my guess is the
semi-auto mechanism is inherently more accurate than the wheelgun's.

You have a single or double action wheelgun? If double, you keep a
chamber empty for safety's sake? If so, that means the G34 mag holds
more than three times the number of rounds.

How is that 17 round magazine legal? Pre-ban?
Nope. Perfectly legal in Maryland.


I'm not sure how you can say the semi-auto is "inherently" more
accurate than a revolver. A barrel is a barrel. The same bullets
pass through them.
How they get to the barrel matters.

True. However, I much prefer revolvers because they are simpler,
easier to reload (quicker actually) and easier to handle.

Their major disadvantage is number of rounds, but accuracy more than
makes up for it.

I own more than a few guns and I use them for sport. I do keep one or
two around for self defense but that's another thread.

I have revolvers and semi-auto's. How do you figure that the revolvers
are more accurate? Trigger pull is similar as are the lengths of the
barrels. What am I missing?

Dan


In a revolver, there is a bit of space between the business end of the
cylinder and the back end of the barrel, where the bullet enters after the
hammer strikes the round. The lineup between the bullet and the barrel
isn't always perfect. Off even a bit matters, especially in match
contents. In a semi auto, the round is fully in the barrel before it is
set off.

--
SUPPORT BUSH'S ENEMIES BUY CITGO GAS.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

So, which is the better *defensive* handgun, a S&W .357 mag fitted with
laser grips or a Glock auto?

Either.

I ahve my .357 loaded with .38's because I can do without the racket.
and at close range they both do the same damage.

i ahve my .44 loaded with .44 Smith's for the same reason.

If I can't do it with a Special, I'm not going to do it with a magnum
either.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Skipper wrote:
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:

Skipper wrote:
So, which is the better *defensive* handgun, a S&W .357 mag fitted
with
laser grips or a Glock auto?
.357 mag revolver or a .44 mag revolver.
Simple, effective and never break down.
"I know what you're thinkin', punk. You're thinkin', did he fire six
shots or only five? And to tell you the truth, I forgot myself in all
this excitement. But bein' this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful
handgun in the world, and it'll blow your head clean off, you could
ask
yourself a question. Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

- Harry Callahan

--
Skipper
Great line, great delivery, but inaccurate. The .454 Casull, for one.
was and is "more powerful."
Not sure, but I don't think that load existed at the time the movie was
made.

Dick Casull developed the .454 Casull in 1957 and announced it in 1959
in Guns and Ammo magazine. If I'm on your "holiday shopping list," I'd
like a 454 wheelgun from Freedom Arms.

I stand corrected!

I'll email you the name of my FFL fella.

Why?

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Narcissists are grandiose. They live in an artificial self invented from
fantasies of absolute or perfect power, genius, beauty, etc. Normal
people's
fantasies of themselves, their wishful thinking, take the form of
stories --
these stories often come from movies or TV, or from things they've read or
that were read to them as children. They involve a plot, heroic activity
or
great accomplishments or adventu normal people see themselves in
action,
however preposterous or even impossible that action may be -- they see
themselves doing things that earn them honor, glory, love, riches, fame,
and
they see these fantasy selves as personal potentials, however tenuous"

"Lord Reginald Smithers" Ask me about my driveway leading up to my
manor. wrote in message ...
Wow, Harry, you really seem to be great at everything you do.

I am impressed.

Not only are you great at everything you do, but your health is perfect.
Are you still 165 lbs?
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
John H. wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:00:53 -0500, Harry Krause

wrote:

*JimH* wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
John H. wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:26:50 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Don White wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
Bert Robbins wrote:

"Jim Carter" wrote in message
...

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
. ..

It means they were properly trained to handle and use
firearms.

One shot, one kill.
I had heard on the news today that there were many shots
fired.
Does that
mean that several people were killed that we don't know
about?
It means that when you fire your weapon you hit what you are
aiming at.

If six guys aimed at the same person then that person should
have
six bullets in him.


Something you learned from your years of weekend warrior combat
experience guarding the loo, Bertie?

Bert would have lobbed half a dozen artillery shells at the
hapless victim...from a safe distance of course.
I have a feeling Bert would need a half dozen boxes of ammo to
hit
the side of a barn. Accuracy with firearms requires regular
practice. I go to one of three ranges at least once a month,
year-around. Most of the cops I see at the ranges are there about
every other week. I've asked them about that. It's fun to shoot
with
cops, because they sometimes have "unusual" guns with them, and
they'll let you pop off a few rounds if they recognize you and
you
ask.
LOL!

What a joke!

--

You planning to meet me at the Gilbert range near you, to show off
your military prowess with a handgun, Herring?

I also go out to the Blue Ridge facility in Chantilly. I've not
seen
you there, either. Or at the MSAR.

I suspect what you shoot off these days is...your mouth.
You are proud of your guns, rifles and shotguns, and rightfully so.
You stated you will use them to protect you and your wife against an
intruder, perhaps whose sole intention is only to steal your super
fast
computer.

Yet air marshals who are assigned to protect us should not use their
guns when confronting a suicide bomber.

Interesting.


A. I believe in home defense.

B. I would only shoot an intruder whom I perceived to
be a physical threat.

C. The dead guy was not a suicide bomber. Or any other kind of
bomber.

D. I suspect Herring, with his vision, would not be able to hit a
man-sized target with a handgun from 25 yards.

Not on the first shot, but I've learned how to adjust. Of course, I
don't
go bragging about what I
shoot, how well I shoot, where I shoot, and with whom I shoot.

--

Gosharoonie. I can hit a small pie-plate sized target at 25 yards with
a
semi-auto handgun the first shot and almost every shot, if I
concentrate,
and you have to adjust to hit a "man-sized" target?

I suspect you don't "shoot" at all, with a handgun or otherwise.

Is your bad aim another reason why we lost in Vietnam?




--
January 20th, 2009: Hang in there, America!