In article oTndf.5414$GB1.4443@trndny06,
Brian Nystrom wrote:

Mike Beede wrote:
In article 3FFcf.7336$941.840@trndny02,
Brian Nystrom wrote:


It's illegal to sell "used" kayak plans. When you purchase plans, you
purchase the right to build one boat with them. Designers have a right
to expect to be paid for their expertise. They have to make a living, too.


Do you have a citation for this law? I'd have imagined that
like any other copyrighted material that you could resell it to
your heart's content.

Then you apparently have no idea what a "copyright" means. What do you
think all the lawsuits over distributing music over the internet and
pirating software are about? Do you think you can just copy a book or
video and sell it?

I assume we're talking about the United States here. I don't know
what the law is elsewhere. In the U.S., if I buy a copyrighted work,
I have the absolute right to sell it to anyone I like. I didn't see
you say anything about selling copies of plans. You said "it's illegal
to sell `used' kayak plans." Perhaps you took my "to your heart's content"
to mean copying. That wasn't my intent.

I'd still like a citation on what law prevents the sale of used
kayak plans.

Mike Beede

k wrote:

Is there a way I can delete this post? It was not my intent to cause a
problem. I have two threads going. I really would like to kill this
thread.

k, you have nothing to be embarrassed about. Your post was an
opportunity for people to learn something about the $$ side of boat
design. It'll die on its own soon.

Steve


Brian Nystrom wrote:

Mike Beede wrote:

In article 3FFcf.7336$941.840@trndny02,
Brian Nystrom wrote:



It's illegal to sell "used" kayak plans. When you purchase plans, you
purchase the right to build one boat with them. Designers have a right
to expect to be paid for their expertise. They have to make a living, too.


Do you have a citation for this law? I'd have imagined that
like any other copyrighted material that you could resell it to
your heart's content.

Then you apparently have no idea what a "copyright" means. What do you
think all the lawsuits over distributing music over the internet and
pirating software are about? Do you think you can just copy a book or
video and sell it? Try that sometime and see how long it is before you
receive a "cease and desist" order and/or the authorities come knocking
on your door. A copyright gives the owner exclusive rights to sell their
intellectual property. How they sell it an what rights the purchaser has
is up to the copyright holder.

As it applies to kayak designs, the majority clearly state that
purchasing their plans gives you the right to build one boat using them.
Building more requires you to pay a licensing fee for each one. However,
some designers allow their customers to build multiple boats and there
are some plans that are distributed freely, In such cases it's clearly
stated as such.




--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

Mike Beede wrote:

In article oTndf.5414$GB1.4443@trndny06,
Brian Nystrom wrote:

Mike Beede wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote:

It's illegal to sell "used" kayak plans. When you purchase plans, you
purchase the right to build one boat with them. Designers have a right
to expect to be paid for their expertise. They have to make a living, too.

Do you have a citation for this law? I'd have imagined that
like any other copyrighted material that you could resell it to
your heart's content.

Then you apparently have no idea what a "copyright" means. What do you
think all the lawsuits over distributing music over the internet and
pirating software are about? Do you think you can just copy a book or
video and sell it?

I assume we're talking about the United States here. I don't know
what the law is elsewhere. In the U.S., if I buy a copyrighted work,
I have the absolute right to sell it to anyone I like. I didn't see
you say anything about selling copies of plans. You said "it's illegal
to sell `used' kayak plans." Perhaps you took my "to your heart's content"
to mean copying. That wasn't my intent.

I'd still like a citation on what law prevents the sale of used
kayak plans.

It's not criminal law, it's contract. When you buy the plans, you accept
a licensing agreement for a specific number of boats, usually one. You
may also have to explicitly agree not to sell the plans. Here's how Nick
Schade puts it:
http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/Buil...e.html#license

If you buy a copy of M$-Word, load it on your computer, then sell the
install disk, Microsoft could legitimately prosecute you for piracy.
They mostly don't, because you are one user among billions. Kayak
designers sell in the 10's to 100's. Read the End User License Agreement
you agreed to sometime.

Of course, some people will choose to rip off designers by buying plans,
building boats, and then selling the plans. Often the designer never
knows about it. But the river and ocean gods do, and they pay attention.

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

In article ,
Steve Cramer wrote:

I'd still like a citation on what law prevents the sale of used
kayak plans.

It's not criminal law, it's contract.

I've never bought one, so I have no idea what kind
of contract they're sold under. That answers the
question. Thanks.

Mike Beede

Steve Cramer wrote:
k wrote:

Is there a way I can delete this post? It was not my intent to cause a
problem. I have two threads going. I really would like to kill this
thread.

Exactly. It was a legitimate question. If you didn't know it wasn't
legal, you didn't know. No big deal.

Mike Beede wrote:
In article oTndf.5414$GB1.4443@trndny06,
Brian Nystrom wrote:


Mike Beede wrote:

In article 3FFcf.7336$941.840@trndny02,
Brian Nystrom wrote:



It's illegal to sell "used" kayak plans. When you purchase plans, you
purchase the right to build one boat with them. Designers have a right
to expect to be paid for their expertise. They have to make a living, too.


Do you have a citation for this law? I'd have imagined that
like any other copyrighted material that you could resell it to
your heart's content.

Then you apparently have no idea what a "copyright" means. What do you
think all the lawsuits over distributing music over the internet and
pirating software are about? Do you think you can just copy a book or
video and sell it?


I assume we're talking about the United States here. I don't know
what the law is elsewhere. In the U.S., if I buy a copyrighted work,
I have the absolute right to sell it to anyone I like. I didn't see
you say anything about selling copies of plans. You said "it's illegal
to sell `used' kayak plans." Perhaps you took my "to your heart's content"
to mean copying. That wasn't my intent.

Sorry if I misunderstood. Yes, you can sell a used book, CD or whatever,
but you cannot copy it and sell the copies.

I'd still like a citation on what law prevents the sale of used
kayak plans.

Read the information that comes with the plans you buy. The copyright
holder has to right to limit you or anyone else to construction of one
boat per set of plans. What you're doing is "licencing" the plans for
that purpose. Legally, I guess you can sell the plans to someone else,
but it's illegal for them to build a boat using them, since they did not
purchase a license for them. It's essentially the same as copying. OTOH,
I have some plans that I never built a boat from, so I can sell them and
the new owner can legally use the license I purchased, since I didn't
use it.