"KMAN" wrote in message
.. .

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

How would this self-taught paddler know what path to follow? How do you
know
they won't just plunge into class 4 WW - after all, that's what they see
on
TV.

If your point is that some people are stupid, point taken. As I've said, I
can point you to countless third-party verifiable tales of professionally
trained people who perish doing stupid things. It's possible there are
people who buy a WW kayak and go directly into class 4 and die. Can you
point me to some verifiable stories where this has happened? Is this
common? Or are you just making the point that someone who has done no
learning and goes into a set of class IV rapids would be in a lot of
danger? If so, may I say, once again, you need only ask me:

"Do you think it's a good idea for a new kayaker to plunge into class 4
WW?" because, yet again, I would have replied in the affirmative.

LOL. I mean:

"Don't you think it's a bad idea for a new kayaker to plunge into class 4
WW?" because, yet again, I would have replied in the affirmative.

On 13-Oct-2005, "KMAN" wrote:

It's about learning - you seem to think
people can only learn with professional instruction.

Please quote a single message from me where I have said anything
of the sort.

I can't
imagine how boring and even frightening life must be if there is nothing you
think possible without an "expert" to guide you.

Nothing boring or frightening about my life. I don't need an expert for
everything, but know the value of an expert when I need it. I know when
it's a waste of time to reinvent the wheel. I have never learned anything
in a vacuum and am honest enough to admit it. I learn from others - just
as you do but can't seem to admit.

All I have
said is that it is entirely possible to learn to kayak well and safely
without a professional instructor. Do you disagree?

Possible - yes. It is entirely possible to learn the same from a non-
professional instructor. I have never said otherwise. I have said that
is is unlikely that someone can learn without _any_ instruction in a
reasonable period of time. Most will never learn kayaking - especially
whitewater - to a reasonable skill level without any instruction.

If you refuse to answer yet again, I think it would be fair to assume that
you don't have the evidence.

Again - please post a quote from me where I have made any such claim that you
ask me to prove. You are asking me to prove your statements, not mine.

You are the one that is making the claims that aren't supportable. You
insist on relying on anecdote without specifying the source. You make
blowhard claims about beating the experts without training.

Mike

in article , Michael Daly at
wrote on 10/13/05 6:31 PM:


On 13-Oct-2005, "KMAN" wrote:

It's about learning - you seem to think
people can only learn with professional instruction.

Please quote a single message from me where I have said anything
of the sort.

If that's not what you believe, then I apologize. But just to clarify, are
you agreeing that people can learn without professional instruction? If so,
I'm really not sure what this entire dialogue has been about, because that's
all I am saying.

If you don't agree, then of course my comment stands and the apology is
retracted.

I can't
imagine how boring and even frightening life must be if there is nothing you
think possible without an "expert" to guide you.

Nothing boring or frightening about my life. I don't need an expert for
everything, but know the value of an expert when I need it. I know when
it's a waste of time to reinvent the wheel. I have never learned anything
in a vacuum and am honest enough to admit it. I learn from others - just
as you do but can't seem to admit.

I learn from others all the time. But some people find reinventing the wheel
is exhilerating. For myself, particularly when it comes to leisure
activities, the last thing I want is to "professionalize" the experience. It
saddens me to see people in a kayaking newsgroup talking about paddling the
way I'd talk about economics. But hey, each to his own. But that doesn't
extend to accepting the notion (and apparently it's not what you believe
anyway?) that people are not capable of learning to kayak without
professional instruction.

All I have
said is that it is entirely possible to learn to kayak well and safely
without a professional instructor. Do you disagree?

Possible - yes.

That's all I have been saying.

It is entirely possible to learn the same from a non-
professional instructor. I have never said otherwise. I have said that
is is unlikely that someone can learn without _any_ instruction in a
reasonable period of time.

Maybe for someone who enjoys learning, a reasonable period of time is the
amount of time that it takes.

I taught myself to play guitar. I taught myself to play tennis. I'm pretty
good at both. I am sure with professional lessons I would have attained a
certain skill level more quickly. But I doubt I would have enjoyed the
experience nearly as much, because it was never about the destination, it
was about the journey. And I am sure many people feel the same about their
kayaking.

Most will never learn kayaking - especially
whitewater - to a reasonable skill level without any instruction.

Please provide evidence that the applied skills of self-taught kayakers lags
that of those who have had professional instruction.

If you refuse to answer yet again, I think it would be fair to assume that
you don't have the evidence.

Again - please post a quote from me where I have made any such claim that you
ask me to prove. You are asking me to prove your statements, not mine.

So you are not claiming that self-taught individuals are more at risk than
those with professional training? If you are not making such a claim, I must
again apologize, and there is no need for you to answer. If you do not
agree, then I must again request that you answer the question:

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught
kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?"

You are the one that is making the claims that aren't supportable.

My only claim is that it is possible to learn to kayak without professional
instruction. You seemed to have agreed with this above. Thus I am not sure
what you are talking about, since yet again you've made a non-specific
statement coupled with a generalized accusation.

You
insist on relying on anecdote without specifying the source. You make
blowhard claims about beating the experts without training.

Mike

So forget about me. In a group like this it is common to share personal
experiences. I thought it relevant to our discussion to share my personal
experience with self-taught successes. You apparently think this makes me a
"blowhard." I have no problem with that.

I'll explain it differently.

Do you not think it possible for a self-taught person (in kayaking, cooking,
tennis, business, guitar, etc) to have success beyond what a person with
professional instruction achieves? Obviously it is possible. Such people are
all around us every day. Don't you agree?

On 13-Oct-2005, KMAN wrote:

That's all I have been saying.

Bull****. You are constantly berating instruction. That's
how this whole discussion got started.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 13-Oct-2005, KMAN wrote:

That's all I have been saying.

Bull****. You are constantly berating instruction.

As usual, you are making a claim without foundation. If I am always saying
it, it is easy enough for you to quote me.

That's how this whole discussion got started.

Mike

My part in the discussion came about because I felt that opinions were being
expressed to suggest that one cannot learn to kayak without professional
instruction. That is not true. I have not "berated instruction" that is pure
and rather typical Michael Daly fantastical thinking.

"KMAN" wrote in message
news

My part in the discussion came about because I felt that opinions were
being expressed to suggest that one cannot learn to kayak without
professional instruction.

As the guy who started the whole thing by asking why the subject boat was
hard for a "beginner" to control, I must express my sincerest apologies for
ever having posted. The group seems to be wound fairly tightly, with a few
pretty helpful people and a bunch of people with a lot of free-floating
hostility.

Most of the "paddling" that goes on here is on one another's butts.

Anyone on here have a canoe?

"Roger Houston" wrote in message
...

"KMAN" wrote in message
news

My part in the discussion came about because I felt that opinions were
being expressed to suggest that one cannot learn to kayak without
professional instruction.

As the guy who started the whole thing by asking why the subject boat was
hard for a "beginner" to control, I must express my sincerest apologies
for ever having posted.

Don't be silly now...

The group seems to be wound fairly tightly

That's the outcome of the professionalization of recreation.

with a few pretty helpful people and a bunch of people with a lot of
free-floating hostility.

Often they are the same people.

Most of the "paddling" that goes on here is on one another's butts.

Sometimes, yes.

Anyone on here have a canoe?

Yeah, me :-)

I learned to paddle it myself. Haven't died yet. Its'a 17" wenonah royalex.
My wife and I use it as a tripping canoe for routes where a kayak is less
than handy (i.e. lots of portaging).

When I was younger I did a lot of whitewater canoeing with my father in a
Scott kevlar. Didn't die then either. We had a great time all across
Northern Ontario while visiting my grandparents (deceased, but for the
record, neither of them died due to lack of professional instruction).

"KMAN" wrote

My part in the discussion came about because I felt that opinions were
being expressed to suggest that one cannot learn to kayak without
professional instruction.

Who ever said such a thing? Could you please quote that post? Mike has
been pretty clear that instruction is a good thing, and you have been
pretty clear on the opposite sentiment, that it's better to figure out
things on your own.

In another thread you said "The common assumption is often that learning
is something to rush through in order to arrive at enjoyment. Well, if
you like sex that last about 30 seconds, then I guess that's the right
philosophy! Personally I find the journey is just as important as the
destination, and that goes for paddling too :-) " and "Learning is
exciting. The problem is some people think it is something to
avoid or get past as quickly as possible. "

That's rather far from my ideas. I'll suggest a couple a things that I
believe, that you apparently don't.

1. Knowledge and skill are beter than ignorance. We begin every new
activity in a state of ignorance. Most people do in fact choose to get
past that state fairly rapidly, because...

2. Activities pursued skillfully are more fun than those pursued
clumsily. This is certainly true for boating. Being able to place the
boat where you want it, to play, to surf: that's great fun. More fun
than just floating down the river because you don't know how to paddle
skillfully. "Learning is exciting," you say, which is certainly true,
but then you say "some people think it is something to avoid or get past
as quickly as possible." You NEVER get past learning. All the same, I
can't imagine anyone saying, as you seem to, "I'm in no hurry to get
skillful; I'd like to remain ignorant and clumsy as long as possible."
I'm not criticizing you for that belief, just pointing out that I think
you're in a distinct minority. Certainly the people who come to me don't
think so. In fact, many have said things like "I had been paddling on my
own for along time and didn't seem to be making much progress, but this
class showed me how to improve."

3. Activities pursued skillfully are safer than those pursued clumsily.
You are clearly concerned with safety, so this should be persuasive even
if the earlier comments weren't. The more challenging the water, the
more important this point is. If you're content with a protracted,
casual learning progress, you limit the number of places you can go
safely. Of course, if you don't want to do challenging water, that's
fine, but don't denigrate people who do want to develop skills to get on
something like the Chatooga. As someone said earlier "There are lots of
rivers out there and not much time to enjoy them."

BTW, earlier you called me "a professional who isn't an asshole" (which
may be one of the sweeter things ever said to me on Usenet), but I'm not
really a professional, even though I do receive money for classes
sometimes. I'm not really a super expert paddler, either. Mainly what I
am is an inveterate, incorrigible instructor. People who paddle with me
get instruction even if they aren't paying for it. I just can't help
myself. You probably don't want to paddle with me.

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

"Steve Cramer" wrote in message
...
"KMAN" wrote
My part in the discussion came about because I felt that opinions were
being expressed to suggest that one cannot learn to kayak without
professional instruction.

Who ever said such a thing? Could you please quote that post? Mike has
been pretty clear that instruction is a good thing, and you have been
pretty clear on the opposite sentiment, that it's better to figure out
things on your own.

In another thread you said "The common assumption is often that learning
is something to rush through in order to arrive at enjoyment. Well, if you
like sex that last about 30 seconds, then I guess that's the right
philosophy! Personally I find the journey is just as important as the
destination, and that goes for paddling too :-) " and "Learning is
exciting. The problem is some people think it is something to
avoid or get past as quickly as possible. "

That's rather far from my ideas. I'll suggest a couple a things that I
believe, that you apparently don't.

1. Knowledge and skill are beter than ignorance. We begin every new
activity in a state of ignorance. Most people do in fact choose to get
past that state fairly rapidly, because...

2. Activities pursued skillfully are more fun than those pursued clumsily.
This is certainly true for boating. Being able to place the boat where you
want it, to play, to surf: that's great fun. More fun than just floating
down the river because you don't know how to paddle skillfully.

You are falling into the same trap of assuming that learners who do not hire
professionals to teach them are incapable of advancing beyond floating down
the river. Thus my participation in this thread, as this is wholly untrue.

"Learning is exciting," you say, which is certainly true, but then you say
"some people think it is something to avoid or get past as quickly as
possible." You NEVER get past learning. All the same, I can't imagine
anyone saying, as you seem to, "I'm in no hurry to get skillful; I'd like
to remain ignorant and clumsy as long as possible."

I've said no such thing. I've been trying to explain that people can and to
become skillful without professional instructino. I think I've been pretty
clear about that. Maybe take a read through again.

I'm not criticizing you for that belief, just pointing out that I think
you're in a distinct minority. Certainly the people who come to me don't
think so. In fact, many have said things like "I had been paddling on my
own for along time and didn't seem to be making much progress, but this
class showed me how to improve."

I can believe that. Because, sadly, our society has become rather dependent
on structured learning and many people have lost the ability to learn on
their own.

3. Activities pursued skillfully are safer than those pursued clumsily.

Agreed.

You are clearly concerned with safety, so this should be persuasive even
if the earlier comments weren't. The more challenging the water, the more
important this point is. If you're content with a protracted, casual
learning progress, you limit the number of places you can go safely. Of
course, if you don't want to do challenging water, that's fine, but don't
denigrate people who do want to develop skills to get on something like
the Chatooga. As someone said earlier "There are lots of rivers out there
and not much time to enjoy them."

You are missing the point again. All I am saying is it is possible to become
skillful without professional instruction.

BTW, earlier you called me "a professional who isn't an asshole" (which
may be one of the sweeter things ever said to me on Usenet), but I'm not
really a professional, even though I do receive money for classes
sometimes. I'm not really a super expert paddler, either. Mainly what I am
is an inveterate, incorrigible instructor. People who paddle with me get
instruction even if they aren't paying for it. I just can't help myself.
You probably don't want to paddle with me.

Not if you give me instruction when I haven't asked for it. Otherwise, no
problem.

And I still don't think you are an asshole, but you have done a terrible job
of interpreting my position, and unfortunately, you may also be a victim of
our over-structured culture where you sincerely believe that people cannot
be proficient learners without a professional to teach them.

I have a whitewater canoe and a flat water canoe and even have a sea kayak
as well as my whitewater kayaks. What can I say, I just love paddling all
types of water. Are you thinking of going with a canoe instead?

Courtney


"Roger Houston" wrote in message
...

Anyone on here have a canoe?