Michael says:
=============
I've learned a lot over the years from lots of people. I'm not
going to pretend that I don't owe them a great deal. That doesn't mean
that I desperately need a professional instructor - even a single
word from an experienced person can turn on a light.
=============

I concur 100%.

Why do I have this funny feeling (trying not to speak for KMAN here)
KMAN wouldn't disagree either.

On 15-Oct-2005, "BCITORGB" wrote:

Why do I have this funny feeling (trying not to speak for KMAN here)
KMAN wouldn't disagree either.

If he did, he'd find a way to insult me in the process. He's been
doing that in all the years since we first crossed paths on Usenet.

Mike

in article , Steve Cramer at
wrote on 10/15/05 8:47 AM:

KMAN:

I was wondering why I couldn't find your original posts on my newsreader
yesterday, and I have realized that it was because I plonked you in my
bitbucket a long time ago preceisely because of your willful insistence
on misrepresenting what other people say.

Example?

As I pointed out below, NO ONE
has said that you need professional instruction. In fact, I wasn't even
talking about instruction as much as your apparent desire to progress in
learning as slowly as possible.

Oops. Pot - kettle - black. When did I say this?

You won't address what I said at all,
and unlike Mike, I don't really get any thrills out of fencing with you, so
PLONK.

Steve

Sorry you unplonked me in the first place. Judging by your reaction you
could benefit from some cognitive therapy.

Plonking is the act of the weakest of individuals. Also rather silly, since
unless you plonk anyone and everyone that replies to me, you are going to
see the content of my posts anyone. You are pathetic, like the overwraught
parent in the grocery store screaming at their child "I'M IGNORING YOU!"
Sad.



KMAN wrote:
"Steve Cramer" wrote in message
...

"KMAN" wrote

My part in the discussion came about because I felt that opinions were
being expressed to suggest that one cannot learn to kayak without
professional instruction.

Who ever said such a thing? Could you please quote that post? Mike has
been pretty clear that instruction is a good thing, and you have been
pretty clear on the opposite sentiment, that it's better to figure out
things on your own.

In another thread you said "The common assumption is often that learning
is something to rush through in order to arrive at enjoyment. Well, if you
like sex that last about 30 seconds, then I guess that's the right
philosophy! Personally I find the journey is just as important as the
destination, and that goes for paddling too :-) " and "Learning is
exciting. The problem is some people think it is something to
avoid or get past as quickly as possible. "

That's rather far from my ideas. I'll suggest a couple a things that I
believe, that you apparently don't.

1. Knowledge and skill are beter than ignorance. We begin every new
activity in a state of ignorance. Most people do in fact choose to get
past that state fairly rapidly, because...

2. Activities pursued skillfully are more fun than those pursued clumsily.
This is certainly true for boating. Being able to place the boat where you
want it, to play, to surf: that's great fun. More fun than just floating
down the river because you don't know how to paddle skillfully.


You are falling into the same trap of assuming that learners who do not hire
professionals to teach them are incapable of advancing beyond floating down
the river. Thus my participation in this thread, as this is wholly untrue.


"Learning is exciting," you say, which is certainly true, but then you say
"some people think it is something to avoid or get past as quickly as
possible." You NEVER get past learning. All the same, I can't imagine
anyone saying, as you seem to, "I'm in no hurry to get skillful; I'd like
to remain ignorant and clumsy as long as possible."


I've said no such thing. I've been trying to explain that people can and to
become skillful without professional instructino. I think I've been pretty
clear about that. Maybe take a read through again.


I'm not criticizing you for that belief, just pointing out that I think
you're in a distinct minority. Certainly the people who come to me don't
think so. In fact, many have said things like "I had been paddling on my
own for along time and didn't seem to be making much progress, but this
class showed me how to improve."


I can believe that. Because, sadly, our society has become rather dependent
on structured learning and many people have lost the ability to learn on
their own.


3. Activities pursued skillfully are safer than those pursued clumsily.


Agreed.


You are clearly concerned with safety, so this should be persuasive even
if the earlier comments weren't. The more challenging the water, the more
important this point is. If you're content with a protracted, casual
learning progress, you limit the number of places you can go safely. Of
course, if you don't want to do challenging water, that's fine, but don't
denigrate people who do want to develop skills to get on something like
the Chatooga. As someone said earlier "There are lots of rivers out there
and not much time to enjoy them."


You are missing the point again. All I am saying is it is possible to become
skillful without professional instruction.


BTW, earlier you called me "a professional who isn't an asshole" (which
may be one of the sweeter things ever said to me on Usenet), but I'm not
really a professional, even though I do receive money for classes
sometimes. I'm not really a super expert paddler, either. Mainly what I am
is an inveterate, incorrigible instructor. People who paddle with me get
instruction even if they aren't paying for it. I just can't help myself.
You probably don't want to paddle with me.


Not if you give me instruction when I haven't asked for it. Otherwise, no
problem.

And I still don't think you are an asshole, but you have done a terrible job
of interpreting my position, and unfortunately, you may also be a victim of
our over-structured culture where you sincerely believe that people cannot
be proficient learners without a professional to teach them.

in article , Grip at
wrote on 10/15/05 2:03 PM:

And BTW, although a white water guy through and through, I also own 2 Mohawk
XL-13's ok so they are WW canoes but....I still have a Prijopn Yukon
Expedition from my touring days which I will still take out twice a year or
so and support the flat water side of my club. And YES, it has a rudder, but
I NEVER EVER use it, I swear!!!

LOL. Good for you. One of the first kayaks I ever paddled was a Prijon.

"Grip" wrote in message
...
I dunno.....I've quite enjoyed it
"Roger Houston" wrote in message
...

"KMAN" wrote in message
news
My part in the discussion came about because I felt that opinions were
being expressed to suggest that one cannot learn to kayak without
professional instruction.

As the guy who started the whole thing by asking why the subject boat
was
hard for a "beginner" to control, I must express my sincerest apologies
for
ever having posted. The group seems to be wound fairly tightly, with a
few
pretty helpful people and a bunch of people with a lot of free-floating
hostility.

Most of the "paddling" that goes on here is on one another's butts.

Anyone on here have a canoe?

in article , BCITORGB
at wrote on 10/15/05 2:59 PM:

I find myself torn between Mike's approaches to many topics and those
of KMAN. Mike speaks to the geeky nerd in me while KMAN addresses my
tendencies to anarchy and resistance to all things organized. While
they do tend to go on and on, I find a little something of value on
both their contributions.

My rational side agrees with Mike on this issue. However, hell will be
frozen over before I'll ever find myself enrolled in a kayaking course
(you will, however, see me lurking on the fringes of such classes
picking up whatever bons mots I can); could be that I'm just plain
cheap.

So, as far as I'm concerned, Mike and KMAN; carry on but perhaps figure
out when you're starting to flog dead horses GRIN... and I will
continue to enjoy my rudder even though I could paddle straight if I
wanted to. Really! I could! And without lessons!

Cheers

Cheers. I think.

in article , Michael Daly at
wrote on 10/15/05 3:01 PM:


On 14-Oct-2005, "KMAN" wrote:

That's the outcome of the professionalization of recreation.

And you claim that you don't denigrate professionals.

You're so full of ****, Keenan.

Mike

That's KMAN. And you are full of rage, it seems. Or certainly the inability
to have a discussion without resorting to personal attacks.

How am I denigrating professionals? I'm a professional myself. Although I am
pretty good at auto mechanics, I take my car to a professional. And I speak
highly of their work. I have a lawyer and an accountant. I speak highly of
them and their work too.

But I don't think the professionalization of recreation is a good thing.
It's supposed to be recreation, not work that happens outside!

I feel sorry for many children today who find themselves professionally
scheduled for every waking hour. They are in leagues and lessons, rushed
from one to the other, and nobody ever just goes out and plays anymore. It's
not healthy. And some of the attitudes express here are consistent with that
same problem - the thinking that learning without a professional instructor
is somehow inferior. I find it sad.

in article , Michael Daly at
wrote on 10/15/05 3:04 PM:


On 14-Oct-2005, "KMAN" wrote:

I've been trying to explain that people can and do
become skillful without professional instruction.

"Can" isn't the same thing as "will".

I know. I didn't say all people. I can formally amend the above to say "I've
been trying to explain that some people can and do become skillful without
professional instruction" if that will help you.

That's the part you
refuse to accept and what Steve is trying to explain.

I agreed with that a long time ago, you just don't listen.

As I have said repeatedly - _some_ people can learn without
instruction; _most_ people cannot.

Mike

That sounds exactly like the statement I agreed to some time ago.

I would consider people incapable of learning without professional
instruction to be victims. It's a basic instinct for human beings to learn
through experience and observation. It's evidence that the culture of
professinalization has gone to far when we can now produce human beings
incapable of learning without professional instruction.

in article , BCITORGB
at wrote on 10/15/05 4:49 PM:

Michael:
==============
That's the outcome of the professionalization of recreation.

And you claim that you don't denigrate professionals.

You're so full of ****, Keenan.
===============

I don't denigrate professionals, but, I too, wonder at the
"professionalization of recreation".

Why can't kids play soccer (hockey, basketball, etc) anymore, without
going to camps lead by ex-pro athletes?

LOL. I just wrote something similar.

Apparently the lowly parent
subbing players as required in games isn't good enough for some.

I coach and have coached a number of children in sports. It has come to the
point where I have to have a meeting with all the parents and explain to
them that all the children are going to get equal playing time, and that if
this is a problem for any parent, they should move their child to another
team now, rather than put them in the middle of a situation where coach and
parent cannot agree. And, believe it or not, about 10% of parents actually
pull their kids of the team.

Why
must people assume they have to take lessons to ski? I skiied for
several years, having a great deal of fun, putting the weight on the
wrong foot when turning (I assumed it was like skating); lessons would
have sped up the learning of that fact, but I'm not sure I would have
had more fun.

I learned how to downhill ski when my buddies took me up to the top of the
hill and pushed me. I was a little upset at the time, but I always had a
blast, right from that first moment. In some sports (like tennis) I decided
I really wanted to become technically proficient, so I worked at my game.
But in skiing, I stuck with my original technique. Good times.

Michael, I'm not opposed to lessons, but I think our society
occasionally gets carried away with the formalization of recreation
(just look at all the people signing up for cooking lessons; fer
crissakes, it's not rocket science!!!! -- read a friggin' cookbook!!!).

My $0.02 -- and no denigration of professionals

Agree, agree.

I am ashamed to say I now have several acquaintances who feel they need
"personal trainers" because they can't stop eating like pigs or get off
their asses to go for walk. They honestly believe it is not possible for
them to lose weight without a professional to help them. The professionals
who do this work are not to blame. It's the culture that has produced such a
belief that is to blame.

in article , Michael Daly at
wrote on 10/15/05 6:22 PM:


On 15-Oct-2005, "BCITORGB" wrote:

Why can't kids play soccer (hockey, basketball, etc) anymore, without
going to camps lead by ex-pro athletes? Apparently the lowly parent
subbing players as required in games isn't good enough for some.

There is a problem with organized sports and that problem is parents.
They want to live the successful athlete's life vicariously through
their kids.

However, most organized sports consists of well-meaning dads and moms
helping their kids play for fun.

Do you go and watch kids in organized sports? Those well-meaning moms and
dads - a lot of them - are screaming for their kid to do things that aren't
very nice.

Those moms and dads may not be as
obvious as the loud-mouthed nutcase parents, but they are by far in
the majority. Friends and relatives of mine are in that category.
My brother-in-law has done a lot of good with kids in curling. If
it isn't fun, he makes sure the kids make the right decision about
whether to continue.

See my other post about coaching. Although only 10% of the parents actually
walk out, I've learned about 50% of those who remain ain't happy.

Michael, I'm not opposed to lessons, but I think our society
occasionally gets carried away with the formalization of recreation
(just look at all the people signing up for cooking lessons; fer
crissakes, it's not rocket science!!!! -- read a friggin' cookbook!!!).

That's fine - you can take lessons if you want. Otherwise you can
learn on your own. But that's not the same thing as saying that
professional instructors are somehow bad.

Who has said this?

in article , BCITORGB
at wrote on 10/15/05 8:27 PM:

Michael says:
=============
I've learned a lot over the years from lots of people. I'm not
going to pretend that I don't owe them a great deal. That doesn't mean
that I desperately need a professional instructor - even a single
word from an experienced person can turn on a light.
=============

I concur 100%.

Why do I have this funny feeling (trying not to speak for KMAN here)
KMAN wouldn't disagree either.

I wouldn't :-)

I've been trying to make the simple point that SOME people are capable of
learning on their own.

I further understand and agree that with some people and/or with certain
skills being self-taught could mean a longer learning curve than would be
epxerienced with professional instruction.

But I firmly believe ALL people SHOULD be capable of learning without
professional instruction. The fact that some are not (or think they are not)
is evidence for me of a problem in our culture - that the learning instinct
has been beaten out of some of the human beings in our society.

My own approach to supporting the learning of others is to view my role as a
facilitator. I am not "teaching" them. Teaching from that perspective is
something you "do to" someone. I prefer to understand it is a process we are
sharing together. I am going to learn things from them as well (and that's
for me the most rewarding thing about supporting people to learn).

I facilitate their learning - making sure they are in charge, rather than
adopting a superior instructor vs inferior learner approach. Professional or
otherwise, that's the perspective I look for in choosing professionals that
help me in my own life.