I persuaded my friend to buy a used Dagger Animas as a first boat. I had
read reviews that it was a great first boat. The guy at the counter of the
store whose owner put it in stock for sale said that it was not for
whitewater, and not for sea kayaking, but great for everything in between.

We took it out today where a river feeds into a lake, still a bit of
current, and some wind. The boat just spins on its center of rotation and
is very difficult to control as to direction of travel. She'd be paddling
(an experienced canoeist new to kayaks), and it would yaw right and left,
and when she finally got going it would suddenly switch ends, doing an
uncommanded 180 degree turn. It caused her no end of frustration, and in
the end, I had to tow her back to where we put in. The boat at the end of a
toe line was as undisciplined as had been the case when paddled freely,
yawing and yanking at the tow line.

I must say I am disappointed, and the beginner is discouraged. I've got to
find her another used boat.

For what purpose is the Animas actually designed. Or was it designed at
all, vs being put together to look cool?

"Roger Houston" wrote in message
...
I persuaded my friend to buy a used Dagger Animas as a first boat. I had
read reviews that it was a great first boat.

With friends like you, who needs Animas ...

On 6-Oct-2005, "Roger Houston" wrote:

The guy at the counter of the
store whose owner put it in stock for sale said that it was not for
whitewater, and not for sea kayaking, but great for everything in between.

Don't listen to that guy again. The Animas is a WW kayak. It may not
be the latest and greatest playboat, but it was a popular kayak at one
time.

The boat just spins on its center of rotation and
is very difficult to control as to direction of travel.

That sounds about right for a WW kayak. They are designed to handle in
rough water and will change directions fast. The price you pay is that
you have to learn how to control it. Every WW kayak will spin out of
control when paddled on fla****er unless you learn to correct the
motion with pretty much every other stroke. Tell your friend that she
will have to spend a lot of time in the kayak to get used to it.
If you switch it for a kayak that will track well, that will be a
kayak that is difficult to use in WW.

If she didn't want to do WW, then definitely get a different kayak.
WW kayaks are for WW.

Mike

Roger Houston wrote:

I persuaded my friend to buy a used Dagger Animas as a first boat. I had
read reviews that it was a great first boat. The guy at the counter of the
store whose owner put it in stock for sale said that it was not for
whitewater, and not for sea kayaking, but great for everything in between.

The guy at the store doesn't quite know what he's talking about. The
Dagger Piedra is the Animas scaled down for smaller people; everything
I shall say about the Piedra with my 150# & 120# friends applies to the
Animas with a heavier paddler. My friends Jon and Karen love the
Piedra for (up to) Class IV/V whitewater in both the Rockies and the
Appalachians. The Piedras were not their first boats, nor are they
their only whitewater boats (they have Micro-235s for steep creekin')
but if they had to keep just one boat each I believe they would keep
the Piedras because the Piedras are so stable and predictable in
turbulent whitewater yet versatile enough for all but the gnarliest
creeks -- which is why the reviews called the Animas a good first boat.
[Don't don't seize upon the weight/size issue; at yer friend's level
of boating it is NOT an issue; at her experience level, on flat moving
water, the Animas and the Piedra might as well be interchangable.]

We took it out today where a river feeds into a lake, still a bit of
current, and some wind. The boat just spins on its center of rotation and
is very difficult to control as to direction of travel. She'd be paddling
(an experienced canoeist new to kayaks), and it would yaw right and left,
and when she finally got going it would suddenly switch ends, doing an
uncommanded 180 degree turn. It caused her no end of frustration, and in
the end, I had to tow her back to where we put in. The boat at the end of a
toe line was as undisciplined as had been the case when paddled freely,
yawing and yanking at the tow line.

Though the salesman was not right about the Animas being unsuitable for
whitewater, and though he should have broadened the "sea-kayaking"
category to "touring" (to include lake and flat-river paddling) He was
right about it being a good boat for swif****er paddling, and if he is
a young hot-dog whitewater boater he probably included everything up to
Class III whitewater in the "in between" category.

If she is experienced in tripping canoes, the Animas would
understandably have been a problem for her. If she had been
experienced in whitewater canoes she should have had no trouble (I have
to consciously keep my whitewater canoe on track when I'm on flat
stretches, and my canoe will spin out just like her kayak if I stop
paddling and don't keep the blade in the water for control). Jon &
Karen have no trouble paddling their Piedras across the lakes we
encounter at the bottoms of some whitewater runs, because J&K have
cleared the learning curve.

I must say I am disappointed, and the beginner is discouraged. I've got to
find her another used boat.

Absolutely, if she is looking for a fla****er touring boat. Absolutely
not if she wants to become a whitewater boater; if she wants to become
a whitewater boater she needs to learn how to make it go straight when
she needs to go straight, and how to take advantage of its high
maneuverability when she needs to maneuver in variable currents. But
you would know all this if you were a whitewater boater, and I am
guessing she wants to learn the kind of boating you do, so you are
probably right: you probably need to find her another boat. A Dagger
Blackwater, perhaps: 10.5' long (if I remember correctly) with a slight
keel or skeg to help it track.

For what purpose is the Animas actually designed. Or was it designed at
all, vs being put together to look cool?

Please don't insult the boat because you received less than perfect
advice from the salesman. The Animas and the Piedra were never cool;
they were always workhorse kayaks for the less-extreme whitewater
boater, but Jon & Karen lovvvvvvvve the predictable performance of the
Animas' little-brother boat.


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. Winston-Salem, NC, USA
.. . . Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll . . ..
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net . . . . . . . . . .. cell: (301) 775-0471
.. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters ..
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu . . . . . . . . . . . office: (336) 713-5077
================================================== ====================

"John" wrote in message
...

"Roger Houston" wrote in message
...
I persuaded my friend to buy a used Dagger Animas as a first boat. I had
read reviews that it was a great first boat.

With friends like you, who needs Animas ...

Or for that matter enemas. But what about the boat? Why does it do that?

"Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message
oups.com...

For what purpose is the Animas actually designed. Or was it designed at
all, vs being put together to look cool?

Please don't insult the boat because you received less than perfect
advice from the salesman.

Yeah, that was harsh. I guess the motive power for the boat is in the
current, and the paddle inputs are for directional control. At any rate,
both the salesman and on online review I consulted prior to making the
recommendation were seriously in error.

I am more optimistic now that we can get her money or most of it out of the
Animas by selling it to someone for whom it is better suited, or trading it
in on a boat more suitable to fla****er touring which I guess is the other
name for paddling up and down the river and through its impoundments
watching the trees change colors.

Thanks.

It was designed as a whitewater boat and was popular about 10 or 11 years
ago. It's definitely not a flat water boat. I would call the person back
that you bought it from and have a few words with him. If he's decent he
should take the boat back and sell you a recreational boat. If you're not
sure about the boats they have but are interested in a few there, just write
us back here and we'll give you input.

Courtney

"Roger Houston" wrote in message
...
I persuaded my friend to buy a used Dagger Animas as a first boat. I had
read reviews that it was a great first boat. The guy at the counter of
the
store whose owner put it in stock for sale said that it was not for
whitewater, and not for sea kayaking, but great for everything in between.

We took it out today where a river feeds into a lake, still a bit of
current, and some wind. The boat just spins on its center of rotation and
is very difficult to control as to direction of travel. She'd be paddling
(an experienced canoeist new to kayaks), and it would yaw right and left,
and when she finally got going it would suddenly switch ends, doing an
uncommanded 180 degree turn. It caused her no end of frustration, and in
the end, I had to tow her back to where we put in. The boat at the end of
a
toe line was as undisciplined as had been the case when paddled freely,
yawing and yanking at the tow line.

I must say I am disappointed, and the beginner is discouraged. I've got
to
find her another used boat.

For what purpose is the Animas actually designed. Or was it designed at
all, vs being put together to look cool?

Why don't you check out www.dagger.com and www.wildernesssystems.com to name
just two and research their touring and recreational boats. That should
help you with your choices.

Courtney

"Roger Houston" wrote in message
...

"Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message
oups.com...

For what purpose is the Animas actually designed. Or was it designed
at
all, vs being put together to look cool?

Please don't insult the boat because you received less than perfect
advice from the salesman.

Yeah, that was harsh. I guess the motive power for the boat is in the
current, and the paddle inputs are for directional control. At any rate,
both the salesman and on online review I consulted prior to making the
recommendation were seriously in error.

I am more optimistic now that we can get her money or most of it out of
the
Animas by selling it to someone for whom it is better suited, or trading
it
in on a boat more suitable to fla****er touring which I guess is the other
name for paddling up and down the river and through its impoundments
watching the trees change colors.

Thanks.

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 6-Oct-2005, "Roger Houston" wrote:

The guy at the counter of the
store whose owner put it in stock for sale said that it was not for
whitewater, and not for sea kayaking, but great for everything in
between.

Don't listen to that guy again.

Sound advice. The store has since gone out of business. Wonder why?

The Animas is a WW kayak. It may not
be the latest and greatest playboat, but it was a popular kayak at one
time.

I wish I'd sought the expertise of paddlers rather than the patter of the
salesman or even the vague statements of Dagger's own page at
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257
which says

"Stable, all-around river runner . comfortable cockpit for larger paddlers .
long waterline for speed and tracking . for those who prefer a longer, more
predictable kayak . choice beginner kayak or big water boat for anyone"

"Long waterline for ... tracking" "more predictable kayak" would seem to
imply a broader spectrum of usability than is actually the case.

"Courtney" wrote in message
ink.net...
Why don't you check out www.dagger.com and www.wildernesssystems.com to
name
just two and research their touring and recreational boats. That should
help you with your choices.

As I mentioned in another post, I won't check out Dagger's site as a source
of primary information. Not knowing anything else about the boat, what is
written on their site at
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257
would lead one to believe that the boat tracks and is predictable for
beginners, neither of which proved to be the case with the boat in question.

I think I'll ask on here; the ng seems to have been a source of pretty
reliable information in other respects.