"John H" wrote:

Doug, why do you find name-calling necessary? Do you feel it legitimizes
your
argument?

You, Kevin, and Harry are one and the same. Goodbye.


Interesting hypothesis. It may have some merit.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Jack Goff" wrote in message
m...


I've lead *you* by the nose, provided specifics, and you still don't seem
to
get it, moron. Do you *now* understand *where* the increased demand for
petroleum is coming from? Or are you stupid?


We are their biggest market.

China on global hunt to quench its thirst for oil
- Robert Collier, Chronicle Staff Writer
Sunday, June 26, 2005


Move over, Big Oil. There's a new oilman on the world stage -- China.

China's takeover bid for Unocal Corp. makes clear to sticker-shocked
Americans that the 1.3 billion Chinese people are demanding an ever-larger
supply of the world's energy to fuel their booming economy and are willing
to get it wherever necessary.

From Central Asia to Latin America, Africa, the Middle East and even Canada,
Chinese firms are pumping oil and natural gas in many areas that the United
States was counting on to meet its own record-high demand.

"We need to supply our people, and like every country we need to buy oil
from around the world," said Zhou Dadi, director general of the Energy
Research Institute, the central government's main policy agency on the
subject. "This is part of globalization. It is a strategy of sustainable
development. It is part of a historical process."

While China's supply network does not yet rival the global clout of U.S.-
based oil corporations, the shift raises concerns of politicians and
analysts in the United States and Southeast Asia who see China as a future
global giant motivated by the same powerful self-interest as American Big
Oil.

China's thirst for energy has been a major factor driving up the
international price of oil. Light, sweet crude closed at $59.84 a barrel
Friday, the fourth record-high day in a row and a sign that American
motorists will feel increasing pain at the pump in coming months.

Chinese petroleum imports are expected to rise by about 8 percent this
year -- accounting for about one-third the total worldwide consumption
increase, as it has in recent years. Because China's domestic oil production
is in a long-term decline, its imports are expected to surpass the U.S.
import levels within two decades.

U.S. officials have been increasingly uneasy as China has signed major deals
with Iran, Sudan, Burma and Venezuela, all countries that have strained
relations with the United States.

While the Bush administration tries to build international pressure against
Iran over its nuclear aspirations, China has signed a $70 billion long- term
oil and gas supply deal with the Tehran government. China has also signed
agreements to develop heavy oil reserves in Venezuela, where President Hugo
Chavez has emerged as one of Washington's most vocal opponents.



Even in Canada, the top U.S. oil supplier, Chinese firms have signed three
deals this year to tap Alberta's vast oil-sands reserves and to join a
pipeline venture to bring crude to the Pacific coast, where it can be
shipped to China.

In many of these new deals, the webs of alliances and rivalries are
overlapping. CNOOC Ltd., the 70 percent state-owned company that last week
offered $18.5 billion for Unocal, is scheduled to begin imports of liquefied
natural gas next year from Australia, in a project that CNOOC co-owns with
Chevron, its rival suitor for Unocal. CNOOC also is involved with Chevron in
offshore oil production in the Bohai Bay of northeast China.

Western energy analysts in Beijing say that as the government-owned Chinese
oil firms scour the globe for deals, they often have a leg up on the likes
of Chevron and ExxonMobil, which are privately owned.

Because about 80 percent of the world's oil reserves are in the hands of
governments, which usually prefer to deal with other state-owned
enterprises, Chinese firms can gain favor, said Gavin Thompson, China
country manager for Wood Mackenzie, a British energy consulting firm.
Although Chinese companies cannot offer the same high-tech methods for
exploration, drilling and extraction as the U.S. majors, they gain a
negotiating edge by being willing to assume unprofitable side deals that
function basically as development aid.

In 2003 and 2004, for example, the Chinese firm Sinopec signed a series of
deals with Saudi Arabia to develop natural gas fields. Sinopec's investment,
which ultimately could be worth $4 billion, commits the firm to a wide
variety of welfare-state activities, such as building sewage treatment
plants and schools.

Some analysts say this broad brush has served Beijing's foreign policy needs
rather than the companies' bottom line.

"China's acquisition strategy is that it can go anywhere and buy almost
anything," Thompson said. "But as a consequence, its asset portfolio has
become quite random and scattered."

Throughout East Asia, even close allies of Beijing show nervousness about
its energy appetites.

China has been wrangling with Japan over natural gas reserves in the East
China Sea, and with Vietnam over suspected oil deposits near the Spratly
Islands in the South China Sea, setting off worries that such conflicts
could turn violent.

"Throughout all of East Asia, there is a rising new concern about energy
security," said Chin Kin Wah, deputy director of the Institute of Southeast
Asian Studies, a government-backed think tank in Singapore. "From Russia to
China down to Indonesia, there is a new generation of possible conflicts."

Malaysia's Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi sounded a warning at a Kuala
Lumpur energy conference June 14: "As governments and companies continue to
pour in more and more money to secure additional oil and gas assets, some of
these assets may also, unfortunately, lead to various geopolitical
maneuverings, disputes and conflicts."

Chinese officials say that no matter how rich and powerful their country
becomes, their need for oil will never turn into U.S.-style gunboat
diplomacy.

"You must realize that China will never be expansionist for the reason of
oil," said Xie Feng, a deputy director-general for China's Ministry of
Foreign Affairs who is in charge of North American relations. "It will never
act like a superpower.

"It might become a regional power. In all its history over the past
thousands of years, China has never sent troops abroad, to have colonies, to
seize resources. This is not part of the Chinese character. You must
understand our culture. We are not like that."

On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:47:31 -0400, "NOYB" wrote:


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Jack Goff" wrote in message
m...


I've lead *you* by the nose, provided specifics, and you still don't seem
to
get it, moron. Do you *now* understand *where* the increased demand for
petroleum is coming from? Or are you stupid?


We are their biggest market.

China on global hunt to quench its thirst for oil
- Robert Collier, Chronicle Staff Writer
Sunday, June 26, 2005


Move over, Big Oil. There's a new oilman on the world stage -- China.

China's takeover bid for Unocal Corp. makes clear to sticker-shocked
Americans that the 1.3 billion Chinese people are demanding an ever-larger
supply of the world's energy to fuel their booming economy and are willing
to get it wherever necessary.

From Central Asia to Latin America, Africa, the Middle East and even Canada,
Chinese firms are pumping oil and natural gas in many areas that the United
States was counting on to meet its own record-high demand.

"We need to supply our people, and like every country we need to buy oil
from around the world," said Zhou Dadi, director general of the Energy
Research Institute, the central government's main policy agency on the
subject. "This is part of globalization. It is a strategy of sustainable
development. It is part of a historical process."

While China's supply network does not yet rival the global clout of U.S.-
based oil corporations, the shift raises concerns of politicians and
analysts in the United States and Southeast Asia who see China as a future
global giant motivated by the same powerful self-interest as American Big
Oil.

China's thirst for energy has been a major factor driving up the
international price of oil. Light, sweet crude closed at $59.84 a barrel
Friday, the fourth record-high day in a row and a sign that American
motorists will feel increasing pain at the pump in coming months.

Chinese petroleum imports are expected to rise by about 8 percent this
year -- accounting for about one-third the total worldwide consumption
increase, as it has in recent years. Because China's domestic oil production
is in a long-term decline, its imports are expected to surpass the U.S.
import levels within two decades.

U.S. officials have been increasingly uneasy as China has signed major deals
with Iran, Sudan, Burma and Venezuela, all countries that have strained
relations with the United States.

While the Bush administration tries to build international pressure against
Iran over its nuclear aspirations, China has signed a $70 billion long- term
oil and gas supply deal with the Tehran government. China has also signed
agreements to develop heavy oil reserves in Venezuela, where President Hugo
Chavez has emerged as one of Washington's most vocal opponents.



Even in Canada, the top U.S. oil supplier, Chinese firms have signed three
deals this year to tap Alberta's vast oil-sands reserves and to join a
pipeline venture to bring crude to the Pacific coast, where it can be
shipped to China.

In many of these new deals, the webs of alliances and rivalries are
overlapping. CNOOC Ltd., the 70 percent state-owned company that last week
offered $18.5 billion for Unocal, is scheduled to begin imports of liquefied
natural gas next year from Australia, in a project that CNOOC co-owns with
Chevron, its rival suitor for Unocal. CNOOC also is involved with Chevron in
offshore oil production in the Bohai Bay of northeast China.

Western energy analysts in Beijing say that as the government-owned Chinese
oil firms scour the globe for deals, they often have a leg up on the likes
of Chevron and ExxonMobil, which are privately owned.

Because about 80 percent of the world's oil reserves are in the hands of
governments, which usually prefer to deal with other state-owned
enterprises, Chinese firms can gain favor, said Gavin Thompson, China
country manager for Wood Mackenzie, a British energy consulting firm.
Although Chinese companies cannot offer the same high-tech methods for
exploration, drilling and extraction as the U.S. majors, they gain a
negotiating edge by being willing to assume unprofitable side deals that
function basically as development aid.

In 2003 and 2004, for example, the Chinese firm Sinopec signed a series of
deals with Saudi Arabia to develop natural gas fields. Sinopec's investment,
which ultimately could be worth $4 billion, commits the firm to a wide
variety of welfare-state activities, such as building sewage treatment
plants and schools.

Some analysts say this broad brush has served Beijing's foreign policy needs
rather than the companies' bottom line.

"China's acquisition strategy is that it can go anywhere and buy almost
anything," Thompson said. "But as a consequence, its asset portfolio has
become quite random and scattered."

Throughout East Asia, even close allies of Beijing show nervousness about
its energy appetites.

China has been wrangling with Japan over natural gas reserves in the East
China Sea, and with Vietnam over suspected oil deposits near the Spratly
Islands in the South China Sea, setting off worries that such conflicts
could turn violent.

"Throughout all of East Asia, there is a rising new concern about energy
security," said Chin Kin Wah, deputy director of the Institute of Southeast
Asian Studies, a government-backed think tank in Singapore. "From Russia to
China down to Indonesia, there is a new generation of possible conflicts."

Malaysia's Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi sounded a warning at a Kuala
Lumpur energy conference June 14: "As governments and companies continue to
pour in more and more money to secure additional oil and gas assets, some of
these assets may also, unfortunately, lead to various geopolitical
maneuverings, disputes and conflicts."

Chinese officials say that no matter how rich and powerful their country
becomes, their need for oil will never turn into U.S.-style gunboat
diplomacy.

"You must realize that China will never be expansionist for the reason of
oil," said Xie Feng, a deputy director-general for China's Ministry of
Foreign Affairs who is in charge of North American relations. "It will never
act like a superpower.

"It might become a regional power. In all its history over the past
thousands of years, China has never sent troops abroad, to have colonies, to
seize resources. This is not part of the Chinese character. You must
understand our culture. We are not like that."


Well, a little more proof. Now you'll have earned the right to join the 'moron'
pool with the rest of us.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

Jack Goff wrote:
"John H" wrote:

Doug, why do you find name-calling necessary? Do you feel it legitimizes
your
argument?

You, Kevin, and Harry are one and the same. Goodbye.


Interesting hypothesis. It may have some merit.

Hehe! If you really think that's an "interesting hypothesis", you're
easily amused.

John H wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:36:51 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Jack Goff" wrote in message
om...


I've lead *you* by the nose, provided specifics, and you still don't seem
to
get it, moron. Do you *now* understand *where* the increased demand for
petroleum is coming from? Or are you stupid?


We are their biggest market. If you have a moment, perhaps you could explain
the dangers of this arrangement to your president.





Naturally, the common people do not want war, but they can always be brought
to the bidding of the leaders. Tell them they are being attacked and
denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and endangering the country.
It works the same in every country. -Herman Goering

Doug, why do you find name-calling necessary? Do you feel it legitimizes your
argument?

You, Kevin, and Harry are one and the same. Goodbye.
--
John H

Gee, John, would that be the same as you calling Harry a "****ing liar"
hundreds of times in a couple of days?

"Jack Goff" wrote in message
om...

"Doug Kanter" wrote:


We are their biggest market. If you have a moment, perhaps you could
explain
the dangers of this arrangement to your president.


I don't disagree that the fact that we are buying tons of Chinese crap is
a
problem. I would also hope that you understand that the problem did not
start under *your* President Bush (he is your President as well, unless
you
do not live in the US) , and will not end under him either.

You do realize that is not the question you were asking, right? You were
doubting everyone that place the location of the "increased demand on oil"
as China. You never asked *why* that happened, you only asked that people
back up *where* they said it was happening.


Prices have risen as investors bet refiners and producers will struggle to
meet winter demand in the fourth quarter.

Prices have risen as investors bet refiners and producers will struggle to
meet winter demand in the fourth quarter.

Prices have risen as investors bet refiners and producers will struggle to
meet winter demand in the fourth quarter.

If you need your farm stand to produce X dollars per season, and something
wipes out 1/3 of your tomatoes before they ripen, you may raise your prices
a certain amount to get you closer to "X". The key word here is YOU. YOU
raise the price, not some speculator halfway around the globe. This is quite
different from the oil situation we're discussing. You and others are making
a DIRECT, CAUSATIVE connection between China and current prices.

Read:

http://money.excite.com/ht/nw/bus/20...n27319237.html
By Richard Mably
LONDON (Reuters) - Oil prices hit a new record above $60 a barrel on Monday,
driven by demand growth resilience in the face of high fuel costs and
worries about oil policy under Iran's new hardline president.

U.S. August crude traded as high as $60.64 a barrel and by 1200 GMT was up
55 cents at $60.39. U.S. crude is above $60 for every month until August
2006 with December 2005 setting a peak $61.90 a barrel.

London Brent set a record $59.21 a barrel before easing to $58.91, up 55
cents.

"The market is testing higher to see what price levels this demand can
endure," said Naohiro Niimura, vice president at the derivative products
division of Mizuho Corporate Bank.

Prices have risen as investors bet refiners and producers will struggle to
meet winter demand in the fourth quarter.



While high prices are eroding some strength from the world economy, the
overall growth picture remains solid, central bankers meeting in Switzerland
said at the weekend.

"There was a general consensus that we will have high oil prices for at
least the next two or three years," said Martin Redrado, Argentina's central
bank governor.

That economic resilience has encouraged speculators to test consumers'
ability to absorb higher costs, with only a significant pull-back in demand
from an economic slowdown seen likely to tame prices.

Victory in Iran's presidential election for ultra-conservative Mahmoud
Ahmadinejad also helped support prices.

Ahmadinejad has vowed to flush out corruption from the country's oil sector
and favor domestic investors, although analysts do not expect a big shift in
production policy.

"We don't know in practice yet what Ahmadinejad means for foreign oil policy
or Iran's role in OPEC but there could well be months of uncertainty which
will further delay progress on production capacity," said Iranian consultant
Mehdi Varzi.

Held back by U.S. sanctions, Iran has struggled to lift output capacity with
foreign investment still severely restricted.

"I think Iran's capacity is actually falling," said Varzi. "It will take
time but Ahmadeinejad may be able to streamline policy decisions which would
encourage foreign investors."

The president-elect said his nation would press ahead with its controversial
nuclear program, which the United States sees as part of an effort to build
atomic weapons.

That is likely to stir geopolitical worries on oil markets sensitive to the
chance of output disruptions when spare capacity is limited to small unused
volumes in Saudi Arabia.

Dealers see tight market conditions running for at least another year,
especially for distillate products such as heating oil and diesel.

Over the past four weeks, demand for distillates in the United States has
risen nearly 7 percent from last year while gasoline consumption is up 2.5
percent.

The growth in distillate usage reflects strong consumption in the industrial
and transport sectors, particularly in the trucking business used to ferry
goods around the United States.

Dealers were undeterred by OPEC's largely symbolic output hike earlier this
month. Now producers are consulting on another modest increase of 500,000
barrels a day, cartel president Sheikh Ahmad al-Fahd al-Sabah said on
Saturday.

Saudi Arabia, the only OPEC producer with any spare capacity, says it is
already meeting customer demand for crude.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message Prices have
risen as investors bet refiners and producers will struggle to
meet winter demand in the fourth quarter.

Duh! Why do you think demand is increasing? (and it's not just a one-time
quarterly surge) Hint: Is it just US demand?

"NOYB" wrote in message
link.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message Prices have
risen as investors bet refiners and producers will struggle to
meet winter demand in the fourth quarter.

Duh! Why do you think demand is increasing? (and it's not just a
one-time quarterly surge) Hint: Is it just US demand?


Duh? "As investors bet....". The key word is "bet". The price hike is not
related to the REALITY OF THE PHYSICAL ASSETS THEMSELVES.

Just whatch what happens when the Chinese buy out Unocal.....

"Tim" wrote in message
oups.com...
Just whatch what happens when the Chinese buy out Unocal.....


If that's allowed to happen, we should reinstate the firing squad as a
method of justice. But, that would empty out the Senate completely. Hmmm....