yo-yo, the shock absorbing capability is dependent on how much sag is in the
(inelastic) chain. lots of sag, lots of shock absorbtion. less sag, a hell of
a lot less absorbtion. little sag, almost no shock absorbtion.

"NOYB"
Date: 9/18/2004 10:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
genie, shut up.

Subject: Why need anchor chain?
From: Gene Kearns
Date: 9/18/2004 7:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 18 Sep 2004 21:15:33 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

What happens during the interaction of forces on the rode would be
most fascinating.

a way to simplified look at it is to consider the chain/rode/line to
have
zero
weight pulled between two points (say 100 feet apart), then hang a 1#
weight
in
the center point and check how much strain it put on the end points when
the
weight hangs 20 feet, then 10 feet, then 5 feet, then 1 foot, then 1
inch,
then
1/10th inch. Just use trig to figure the forces.

So.... we just used intuitive trig to figure out why (1) we use scope
with an anchor and (2) why we don't tie boats to the dock with chain.
Now *that* is some real science......

And your "simplified look" does not apply.... an anchor rode does not
employ both ends at the same "Y" value.... therefore assumptions of
Y=Y'=0 do not obtain and is, therefore, the root cause of your lack
of understanding in this area. There isn't *anything* *attached* to
the middle.


the forces get out of hand ********VERY******** quickly. Even worse, is
that
the weight in the middle (or chain) has momentum as the boat rocks, so
the
"natural" position of the weight overshoots and makes for seriously high
g-loads.


There is no weight "in the middle" (other than the weight of the rode)
.... so you put two anchors on the same rode? Odd.

Using that concept, most people use kellets and think it is a good and
useful idea.



http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/anchor.htm

" Having a lot of sag in the rode reduces shock loads "

Isn't that what started this whole argument? Anchor chain introduces sag in
the rode. Sag in the rode reduces shock loads. So I guess I was right when
I said that anchor chain acts as a shock absorber, eh jaxie?

gene, go stand in the corner and keep quiet. the man asked a valid question
and got a valid answer. the fact that you are not capable of understanding
either the question or the answer means not a thing except that you are too
stupid to understand. now, be quiet. adults are having a conversation.

Gene Kearns
Date: 9/18/2004 7:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 18 Sep 2004 21:15:33 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

What happens during the interaction of forces on the rode would be
most fascinating.

a way to simplified look at it is to consider the chain/rode/line to have
zero
weight pulled between two points (say 100 feet apart), then hang a 1# weight
in
the center point and check how much strain it put on the end points when the
weight hangs 20 feet, then 10 feet, then 5 feet, then 1 foot, then 1 inch,
then
1/10th inch. Just use trig to figure the forces.

So.... we just used intuitive trig to figure out why (1) we use scope
with an anchor and (2) why we don't tie boats to the dock with chain.
Now *that* is some real science......

And your "simplified look" does not apply.... an anchor rode does not
employ both ends at the same "Y" value.... therefore assumptions of
Y=Y'=0 do not obtain and is, therefore, the root cause of your lack
of understanding in this area. There isn't *anything* *attached* to
the middle.


the forces get out of hand ********VERY******** quickly. Even worse, is
that
the weight in the middle (or chain) has momentum as the boat rocks, so the
"natural" position of the weight overshoots and makes for seriously high
g-loads.


There is no weight "in the middle" (other than the weight of the rode)
.... so you put two anchors on the same rode? Odd.

Using that concept, most people use kellets and think it is a good and
useful idea.

--



Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/ Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillageinn.com/directions.asp Where Southport,NC
is located.
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats Rec.boats
at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide

tomf123 quips:

-Yep - it's Monday, sure as heck. :)-

Bilge-Yep, all freakin' day.

Say, chum, you seem to have an IQ above room temperature, and to know the
difference between a bow pulpit and a saloon urinal...

What the hell's the deal with this newsgroup...is there a computer terminal in
the day room of some looney bin somewhere?

A lot of the posters in this group seem to sorely lacking in heavy meds and
long term, probing bouts of intensive therapy.

It was those damned movies, right?

Too many booger-eaters saw "The Perfect Storm" and "Pirates of the Carribean"
and decided to "run off to sea" and be Depp, Clooney, and Wahlberg, right?

I swear to Almighty, some of these drooling half-wits should have a mast
riveted to their foreheads and be flying 4 black balls from it.

I wouldn't trust some of these clowns to captain a rubber duck in a sitz bath,
let alone a motor or sailing vessel on the high seas.

WTF?






Mutiny is a Management Tool
Select Your Tattoo while Sober

to those who don't know who the scum bag Bilge Rat is, he makes a living --
such as it is -- crawling around the lowest spots in a filthy cargo ships to
replace worn electrical wiring. this, of course, makes him an expert in
recreational boats and how they are used.

(Bilgeman)
Date: 9/20/2004 7:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

tomf123 quips:

-Yep - it's Monday, sure as heck. :)-

Bilge-Yep, all freakin' day.

Say, chum, you seem to have an IQ above room temperature, and to know the
difference between a bow pulpit and a saloon urinal...

What the hell's the deal with this newsgroup...is there a computer terminal
in
the day room of some looney bin somewhere?

A lot of the posters in this group seem to sorely lacking in heavy meds and
long term, probing bouts of intensive therapy.

It was those damned movies, right?

Too many booger-eaters saw "The Perfect Storm" and "Pirates of the
Carribean"
and decided to "run off to sea" and be Depp, Clooney, and Wahlberg, right?

I swear to Almighty, some of these drooling half-wits should have a mast
riveted to their foreheads and be flying 4 black balls from it.

I wouldn't trust some of these clowns to captain a rubber duck in a sitz
bath,
let alone a motor or sailing vessel on the high seas.

WTF?






Mutiny is a Management Tool
Select Your Tattoo while Sober

jaxashby quibbles:

-to those who don't know who the scum bag Bilge Rat is, he makes a living
--such as it is -- crawling around the lowest spots in a filthy cargo ships to
replace worn electrical wiring. this, of course, makes him an expert in
recreational boats and how they are used.-

Bilge- Never claimed any expertise in that area...unless someone else 'round
here has spent more time on Diego Garcia than I have, then I guess I'm the
local expert on "Dodge",(God help me).

Y'know, I love the kind of putrid little ****-lick who thinks that being a
seaman is somewhat akin to serving time for a felony conviction.

Ain't it strange that Christ could left his church in the care of any of his
apostles, among the ones we know of were tax collectors,farmers, tradesmen,
prostitutes(reformed), and fishermen.

And to whom did He hand the Keys?

So, yeah pallie, I play with some fairly dangerous crap in some fairly nasty
places, and the money isn't quite enough to innoculate me from that "Won the
Mega Millions Lotto" dream.

What of it? Care to try it? How many 40 and 50 year olds do you know who walk
the equivalent of a 15 story building every damned day?

Judging by your attitude, I'd say your maritime expertise is job-related
also...you must be the bozo who sucks farts outta the seats of the Staten
Island Ferry.

GFY;



Mutiny is a Management Tool
Select Your Tattoo while Sober

On 20 Sep 2004 11:16:45 GMT, (Bilgeman) wrote:

tomf123 quips:

-Yep - it's Monday, sure as heck. :)-

Bilge-Yep, all freakin' day.

Say, chum, you seem to have an IQ above room temperature, and to know the
difference between a bow pulpit and a saloon urinal...

What the hell's the deal with this newsgroup...is there a computer terminal in
the day room of some looney bin somewhere?

A lot of the posters in this group seem to sorely lacking in heavy meds and
long term, probing bouts of intensive therapy.

It was those damned movies, right?

Too many booger-eaters saw "The Perfect Storm" and "Pirates of the Carribean"
and decided to "run off to sea" and be Depp, Clooney, and Wahlberg, right?

I swear to Almighty, some of these drooling half-wits should have a mast
riveted to their foreheads and be flying 4 black balls from it.

I wouldn't trust some of these clowns to captain a rubber duck in a sitz bath,
let alone a motor or sailing vessel on the high seas.

ROTFLMAO!!!

Man, I love a good turn of phrase and some of those are classics. Mind
if I put them in my "All Time Great Sentences" folder? With proper
credit of course.

Well, it's like this. Over the years, long time denizens of Usenet
have basically run out of things to say. They pretty much have seen
every on-topic question four times and the net result is the Off Topic
musing and wanderings that currently infest most of the more popular
newsgroups. There are even newsgroups designed just for random
musings - alt.fan.tom-servo is one of the more notable ones. You
think this newsgroup is the day room of a cracker box palace, try that
one for a while.

However, that's off the point.

It would seem that once the long time members of any given newsgroup
get bored, all bets are off. It usually starts with a random comment
like "You know, those freakin' losers on the" and it degenerates from
there. Those who can turn a phrase and have some practice at
hyperbole annoy the hell out of those who don't think as fast or as
well (and I'm not casting any aspersions there - some just aren't as
practiced as others) - the name calling starts and their off running
the great game of "did not - did so".

All of the OT posts, name calling and puffy tall talk mask the great
store of knowledge and skill hidden between the other posts. Even
there, however, there can be conflict - there is a poster here who
hates FICHTS, for example, and will go to extreme lengths to make sure
that everybody knows it.

Other forums have taken up the slack of handing out knowledge in a
moderated and civil fashion - message, email and other groups tend,
usually sponsored by one thing or another leaving Usenet to it's
unusual brand of universal anarchy cleverly disguised as democracy in
action.

Last, the participants in a Usenet group have to be willing to engage
in this type of behavior. There are groups where there is a certain
amount of self and group enforced discipline keep things on-topic and
rolling merrily along. This is not one of them.

I wandered in here a while back to ask a question about a Christ Craft
I was thinking of restoring, received an answer and have been in and
out as time permits. There are plenty of lurkers here who
occasionally pop out, answer a question, then fade back into the
woodwork. Others multi-task on-topic and off-topic inbetween other
things. I am here because I'm on a new medicine for my arthritis and
it isn't working as well as it should so instead of being on my boats,
I'm hanging here during the day and inbetween working in my shop tying
flies, fixing/making rods and the occasional woodworking project.

To tell you the truth, I like this bunch. Compared to other
newsgroups, this is pretty sane in the long run.

You just have to seperate the wheat from the chaff if you will.

And with that, I'm off taking our new wards to school, play with the
dogs and I might take a ride down to the shore and watch the waves go
by.

Peace, love, knockwurst and beer.

All the best,

Tom
--------------

"What the hell's the deal with this newsgroup...
is there a computer terminal in the day room of
some looney bin somewhere?"

Bilgeman - circa 2004

tomf123 and Chris Newport (not-me):

Gents:

Thanx for the skinny.
Boating is a high-dollar hobby and folks who "muck about with boats" have
something in common..they measure themselves, their crafts and their wits and
muscle, against the eternal sea...and she's not very forgiving in her "****ier"
moods...or of the prideful and ignorant who think they're "above all
that"...you do it right, or you don't come home...unless you're one lucky
s.o.b.

Silly freakin' me...I thought that with such minor trifles as lives and
fortunes at stake, there'd be something of a more serious discourse hereabouts.
I've "plowed the same furrow" on Usenet since 1995/6 or thereabouts, so I'm
passingly familiar with the netiquette...or lack thereof.

Anyway, y'all, thanks for the trouble to point out the local rocks n'
shoals...just proof of the adage that a good pilot is worth twice his weight in
gold, whilst a bad one makes a passable expedient chafing gear for your anchor
chain.

Tom, feel free to use my nasty-ass bon mots to clobber the Neanderthals
with...heck, if I didn't coin 'em then I stole 'em from some other poor
slob...and BTW, tyin' flies and fishin' don't exactly sound like a purgatorial
rehab regimen, y'know?

Hope yer "ticklin the ivories" again real soon, chum.

Regards;
Mutiny is a Management Tool
Select Your Tattoo while Sober

On Monday 20 September 2004 12:16 pm in rec.boats Bilgeman wrote:

tomf123 quips:

-Yep - it's Monday, sure as heck. :)-

Bilge-Yep, all freakin' day.

Say, chum, you seem to have an IQ above room temperature, and to know the
difference between a bow pulpit and a saloon urinal...

What the hell's the deal with this newsgroup...is there a computer
terminal in
the day room of some looney bin somewhere?

A lot of the posters in this group seem to sorely lacking in heavy meds
and
long term, probing bouts of intensive therapy.

It was those damned movies, right?

Too many booger-eaters saw "The Perfect Storm" and "Pirates of the
Carribean"
and decided to "run off to sea" and be Depp, Clooney, and Wahlberg, right?

I swear to Almighty, some of these drooling half-wits should have a mast
riveted to their foreheads and be flying 4 black balls from it.

I wouldn't trust some of these clowns to captain a rubber duck in a sitz
bath,
let alone a motor or sailing vessel on the high seas.

WTF?

You are (relatively) new around here.

The first thing to do is to plonk Jax into a nice padded
killfile. The second is to kill/ignore any thread
containing responses to him. Jax is a clueless boatless
troll who deliberately posts garbage in order to stir up
an argument. This is a form of attention seeking disorder.

Once you have our number one problem sorted you should take
similar action against all threads beginning OT and the
idiots who post political crap KNOWING that it is off topic.

--
My real address is crn (at) netunix (dot) com
WARNING all messages containing attachments or html will be silently
deleted. Send only plain text.

genei, knock it off. you have no idea what the mathematical term catenary
means, nor any idea of the physics behind it, and sure as hell no understanding
just how ******************VERY***************** quickly the forces can become
HUGE.

go sleep it off.

"Gene Kearns"
Date: 9/20/2004 10:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 00:10:39 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:46:04 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On 18 Sep 2004 21:15:33 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

What happens during the interaction of forces on the rode would be
most fascinating.

a way to simplified look at it is to consider the chain/rode/line to have
zero
weight pulled between two points (say 100 feet apart), then hang a 1#
weight in
the center point and check how much strain it put on the end points when
the
weight hangs 20 feet, then 10 feet, then 5 feet, then 1 foot, then 1 inch,
then
1/10th inch. Just use trig to figure the forces.

So.... we just used intuitive trig to figure out why (1) we use scope
with an anchor and (2) why we don't tie boats to the dock with chain.
Now *that* is some real science......

And your "simplified look" does not apply.... an anchor rode does not
employ both ends at the same "Y" value.... therefore assumptions of
Y=Y'=0 do not obtain and is, therefore, the root cause of your lack
of understanding in this area. There isn't *anything* *attached* to
the middle.

But wouldn't the strain be equal at the arthimetical center and can be
equated to weight? It's really just another to figure energy
transfer, right?

I'm not totaly familiar with this so if I mess this up, it's an
electronic engineer with a math degree playing at mechanics, but
catenary defined means the shape of the line (or in this case rode) as
a curve. A funciton of strain would be weights at either end. Strain
can be defined as stored energy which is, I would think, distributed
evenly along the line to the end points. One way to define how much
strain is being applied would be to add weight to the middle and
measure the deflection.

At that point, it becomes a trig function - yes/no?


Yes. My point is that Jax keeps talking about this particular catenary
(and if properly applied, it isn't truly a catenary) as though both
ends are supported and hanging.... they aren't. The point of the
anchor rode is to fall from the boat at some small angle and end up at
the anchor at least parallel to the sea bed.

*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*

*********************ANCHOR

Don't know if this "graphic" will work, but this is what one should
have, not a true catenary..... if this is expected to hold the
anchor.


the forces get out of hand ********VERY******** quickly. Even worse, is
that
the weight in the middle (or chain) has momentum as the boat rocks, so the
"natural" position of the weight overshoots and makes for seriously high
g-loads.


There is no weight "in the middle" (other than the weight of the rode)
.... so you put two anchors on the same rode? Odd.

Using that concept, most people use kellets and think it is a good and
useful idea.

What's a kellet?


A kellet is "that weight" we've been talking about. If you don't
incorporate "the weight" in the anchor rode, via chain, it can be
artificially applied by using a kellet. Weight is what makes the
catenary functional. As the following link describes, once the
catenary is pulled tight enough to start lifting the shank of the
anchor, the holding ability of the anchor *rapidly* decays. The
greater the weight of the rode, the more holding power and (within
reason) the more shock absorbing power .

see:

http://www.anchorbuddy.co.nz/index.html




Later,

Tom

--



Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/ Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillageinn.com/directions.asp Where Southport,NC
is located.
http://www.southharbourvillageinn.linksysnet.com Real Time
Pictures at My Marina
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats Rec.boats
at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide

Catenary is a mathematical "term"? Term?

Yes.

I thought a mathematical
term was any distinct quantity contained in a polynomial.......

you were wrong. again. and again. and again. and again. and again.