Bill McKee wrote:
"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
BTW you might want to take a gander (if the facts aren't too painful) at
the blurb on President Bush's Social Security policy right below this.

"Most Democrats and some Republicans are critical of such ideas, partly
because of the large federal borrowing the plan would require ($1
trillion or more) to finance the transition..."

DSK



Jeff Rigby wrote:
Yes that's true because there is NO SS money in the treasury, it's all
been spent.

More total horse manure. I guess you believe that US Treasury debt
instruments are "worthless pieces of paper" and "empty IOUs."

If you believe that, then go ahead and try to drive across that bridge
Bush is selling you. I ain't buying it, nor is anyone with a lick of
sense.

DSK



What real money does government generate?

Tariffs. Port fees. To name a couple.

NOYB wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...


NOYB wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Why to ****...

I can't take it any longer! The damn saying is "Why *the* ****..." and
"Why
*the* hell..."

It's NOT "Why *to* ****..." and "Why *to* hell..."

Now go back to beating on your keyboard, Kevin.

Really? Show me how you came to that conclusion, NOYB. What piece of
literary information do you have that says that "why TO ****" isn't
proper, and "why THE **** is"?

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jlawler/aue/thehell.html

Thank you for making my point, NOYB! Um, did you even READ what you
gave? First, it deals with Hell, being a place. **** is not a place.
Second, it CLEARLY says EITHER "in" or "to" but not both. So, dimwit,
you just gave a URL that proves yourself wrong!!! Good job!

Bill McKee wrote:
What real money does government generate?


I take it that your endorsing the theory that US Treasury note, bills,
bonds, etc etc are just "worthless IOUs" and "empty promises"?

The government "generates" all money, in the sense that the US Mint
prints it. The Federal Reserve tells them how much, the US Treasury
keeps Uncle Sam's checking & savings account(s).

'But but but,' you protest, 'Uncle Sam doesn't have a savings account,
the U.S. is running a deficit and is carrying a huge national debt.'
True, but the Treasury debt instruments are the US savings account in
the same way that an individual may have savings even if he's carrying a
huge credit card debt. Cash flow & cash balance are two different things.

Does the government generate *wealth*? No. Other than the way they hand
out favors to certain corporate interests, which is a whole 'nother topic.

What makes a US Treasury debt instrument not worhtless? It's just a
printed piece of paper. Well so is a twenty dollar bill. If the U.S.
gov't does not default on it's debts, then a Treasury bond or bill is
the most secure interest-bearing investment in the world, bar none. OTOH
if the gov't does default, then both the Treasury and the twenty are
worthless pieces of paper.

DSK

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
nk.net...

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
BTW you might want to take a gander (if the facts aren't too painful) at
the blurb on President Bush's Social Security policy right below this.

"Most Democrats and some Republicans are critical of such ideas, partly
because of the large federal borrowing the plan would require ($1
trillion or more) to finance the transition..."

DSK



Jeff Rigby wrote:
Yes that's true because there is NO SS money in the treasury, it's all
been spent.

More total horse manure. I guess you believe that US Treasury debt
instruments are "worthless pieces of paper" and "empty IOUs."

If you believe that, then go ahead and try to drive across that bridge
Bush is selling you. I ain't buying it, nor is anyone with a lick of
sense.

DSK



What real money does government generate?

Anyone that believes that the paper sitting in SS files has any real value
doesn't have a 'lick of sense"

P.Fritz wrote:
Anyone that believes that the paper sitting in SS files has any real value
doesn't have a 'lick of sense"

OK, send me all your ten & twenty dollar bills. Why do you want to keep
them? They are just worthless pieces of paper.

DSk

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
Bill McKee wrote:
What real money does government generate?

I take it that your endorsing the theory that US Treasury note, bills,
bonds, etc etc are just "worthless IOUs" and "empty promises"?

The government "generates" all money, in the sense that the US Mint prints
it. The Federal Reserve tells them how much, the US Treasury keeps Uncle
Sam's checking & savings account(s).

'But but but,' you protest, 'Uncle Sam doesn't have a savings account, the
U.S. is running a deficit and is carrying a huge national debt.' True, but
the Treasury debt instruments are the US savings account in the same way
that an individual may have savings even if he's carrying a huge credit
card debt. Cash flow & cash balance are two different things.

Does the government generate *wealth*? No. Other than the way they hand
out favors to certain corporate interests, which is a whole 'nother topic.

What makes a US Treasury debt instrument not worhtless? It's just a
printed piece of paper. Well so is a twenty dollar bill. If the U.S. gov't
does not default on it's debts, then a Treasury bond or bill is the most
secure interest-bearing investment in the world, bar none. OTOH if the
gov't does default, then both the Treasury and the twenty are worthless
pieces of paper.

DSK


Printing excess paper does not generate wealth. Mostly, it generates
inflation. Where is the money for those IOU's going to come from?

wrote in message
ups.com...


Bill McKee wrote:
"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
BTW you might want to take a gander (if the facts aren't too painful)
at
the blurb on President Bush's Social Security policy right below this.

"Most Democrats and some Republicans are critical of such ideas,
partly
because of the large federal borrowing the plan would require ($1
trillion or more) to finance the transition..."

DSK



Jeff Rigby wrote:
Yes that's true because there is NO SS money in the treasury, it's all
been spent.

More total horse manure. I guess you believe that US Treasury debt
instruments are "worthless pieces of paper" and "empty IOUs."

If you believe that, then go ahead and try to drive across that bridge
Bush is selling you. I ain't buying it, nor is anyone with a lick of
sense.

DSK



What real money does government generate?

Tariffs. Port fees. To name a couple.


I guess you figure income taxes are real money generated by the government.

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
... Current battery technology is terrible.

Only in comparison to fossil fuel technology. It may be physically
impossible to store as much energy in electro-chemical bonds per pound as
is available in a pound of gasoline.


Jeff Rigby wrote:
For fixed storage, weight is not the issue, it's economics. IF you have
10 batterys in a state like Arizona for for use at night, that might work
but for Florida where we get cloudy days you might need 30 batterys.
And every 2-3 years you need to replace those batterys. Not economical
at the current cost for fuel unless you live outside the power grid and
transporting fuel is too prohibative in cost economics again.


Well, Jeff, a lot of people are doing it. I assume they've weighed out the
cost & benefit; if it doesn't actually save them significant cash then
maybe they value independence that much.

You seem to overestimate the need for batteries, probably their cost too,
and how much a household that is set up to run efficiently would use.

I'm not trying to sell you such a system, but they exist, they're
practical, and they're more popular than you'd think.





I'd love to live in N. Carolina by a stream that I could use to provide
hydo-electic power, to be totally self contained. Ain't happening.

Not many suitable locations, and what there are, the land is expensive
enough that you'd be much better off with an off-the-shelf battery/solar
charge 24V DC system.


Homes are a LONG term investment and people need to look out 30 years into
the future when they are designing them. Assume that energy costs are going
to become the biggest expense for the home owner and try to make the house
energy efficient. High ceilings, ceiling fans, lots of insulation, solar
water heaters, appliances that turn on at night to use energy when it's less
expensive, Driers that pull air out of the attic that's already 130 degrees
and doesn't have to be heated, lcd panel tv's instead of plasma (80 watts vs
900 watts), solar powered refrigerators, and more that could be developed.
All of these are doable NOW.

You still need the power grid in most areas at least for some of the
seasons. But you could reduce energy needs by about 50%. An economic
payoff that at todays energy cost would pay for it'self in 20 years and if
energy costs increase allow you to maintain the same comfort level without
damaging your pocketbook.

"Jeff Rigby" wrote in message
...

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
... Current battery technology is terrible.

Only in comparison to fossil fuel technology. It may be physically
impossible to store as much energy in electro-chemical bonds per pound
as is available in a pound of gasoline.


Jeff Rigby wrote:
For fixed storage, weight is not the issue, it's economics. IF you have
10 batterys in a state like Arizona for for use at night, that might
work but for Florida where we get cloudy days you might need 30
batterys. And every 2-3 years you need to replace those batterys. Not
economical at the current cost for fuel unless you live outside the
power grid and transporting fuel is too prohibative in cost economics
again.


Well, Jeff, a lot of people are doing it. I assume they've weighed out
the cost & benefit; if it doesn't actually save them significant cash
then maybe they value independence that much.

You seem to overestimate the need for batteries, probably their cost too,
and how much a household that is set up to run efficiently would use.

I'm not trying to sell you such a system, but they exist, they're
practical, and they're more popular than you'd think.





I'd love to live in N. Carolina by a stream that I could use to provide
hydo-electic power, to be totally self contained. Ain't happening.

Not many suitable locations, and what there are, the land is expensive
enough that you'd be much better off with an off-the-shelf battery/solar
charge 24V DC system.


Homes are a LONG term investment and people need to look out 30 years into
the future when they are designing them. Assume that energy costs are
going to become the biggest expense for the home owner and try to make the
house energy efficient. High ceilings, ceiling fans, lots of insulation,
solar water heaters, appliances that turn on at night to use energy when
it's less expensive, Driers that pull air out of the attic that's already
130 degrees and doesn't have to be heated, lcd panel tv's instead of
plasma (80 watts vs 900 watts), solar powered refrigerators, and more that
could be developed. All of these are doable NOW.

You still need the power grid in most areas at least for some of the
seasons. But you could reduce energy needs by about 50%. An economic
payoff that at todays energy cost would pay for it'self in 20 years and if
energy costs increase allow you to maintain the same comfort level without
damaging your pocketbook.



You need to the power grid to make in financially feasible. Most ot the
solar powered houses and businesses, feed excess power into the grid. The
power companies pay the generator for the power. So, during the day, you
generate an extra 5kw, and at night, you use 6 KW. You only have to pay for
1kw of power. And in California, the power company is required to pay you
at their highest cost to generate power.

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
P.Fritz wrote:
Anyone that believes that the paper sitting in SS files has any real
value doesn't have a 'lick of sense"

OK, send me all your ten & twenty dollar bills. Why do you want to keep
them? They are just worthless pieces of paper.

DSk


You missed the point dude, The money is not there if Bush has to borrow
dollars to finance the private accounts. IF it was there then he wouldn't
have to borrow the money.

For one department of the federal government to come up with the money to
redeem the Treasury notes another has to borrow money by issuing more
treasury notes. You try to do that and you will go to jail, it's called
floating a check.