On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:26:51 -0500, Jim wrote:

In 1946, the Nuremberg Tribunal concluded: "To initiate a war of
aggression is not only an international crime; it is the supreme
international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it
contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

Nuremberg also taught us that "just following orders" is not an excuse
for what the winning side declares to be war crimes. So while the
Germans couldn't get off the hook, neither can the Iraqis, who have been
told from the beginning of the invasion that if they DID follow their
leaders' orders, they would be tried for war crimes. And yet, the
sensitive American soldier who is told to drop bombs on undefended Iraqi
villages -- well, he must do what he is told to do and there's no wiggle
room. He is ruled by people with divine rights; the power that comes
from holding one hand on a bible and keeping the other outstretched to
the oil oligarchy.

What is the wing opening in the sky? What is darkening the clouds? When
does it descend in all its ominous power?
"The best lack all convictions, while the worst Are full of passionate
intensity." (Yeats)

Can you provide an instance where an American soldier was told that he
was to drop bombs on an undefended village and then proceeded to do
so?

I thought not. Now, what is the rest of your post worth?

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

John H wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:26:51 -0500, Jim wrote:

In 1946, the Nuremberg Tribunal concluded: "To initiate a war of
aggression is not only an international crime; it is the supreme
international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it
contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

Nuremberg also taught us that "just following orders" is not an excuse
for what the winning side declares to be war crimes. So while the
Germans couldn't get off the hook, neither can the Iraqis, who have been
told from the beginning of the invasion that if they DID follow their
leaders' orders, they would be tried for war crimes. And yet, the
sensitive American soldier who is told to drop bombs on undefended Iraqi
villages -- well, he must do what he is told to do and there's no wiggle
room. He is ruled by people with divine rights; the power that comes
from holding one hand on a bible and keeping the other outstretched to
the oil oligarchy.

What is the wing opening in the sky? What is darkening the clouds? When
does it descend in all its ominous power?
"The best lack all convictions, while the worst Are full of passionate
intensity." (Yeats)

Can you provide an instance where an American soldier was told that he
was to drop bombs on an undefended village and then proceeded to do
so?

I thought not. Now, what is the rest of your post worth?

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!


We've dropped plenty of bombs on plenty of villages in Iraq, and, by the
standards of modern warfare, these villages were either undefended
entirely, or were "defended" by a small rabble of irregulars whose
actions were small-scale and had nothing to do with the village, but,
rather, with saving their own skins. There are counts kept of the
non-combatant Iraqi civilians we have killed. The numbers are in the
thousands.

You think playing your "literalist" games gives you an argument? It only
makes you the bigger fool.

Is this what they taught you in the military? Amorality?

Harry, do you know how many thousands of lives have been saved? Would you
rather have allowed Saddam to continue his killing? Come on there Harry, you
enjoy freedom of speech here in the west,,,, yes?? I mean your always
barking at the government for what you think is not efficient or not right.
Do you know what would happen to you in Iraq? Well, first, they would rape
your daughters and rape your wife right in front of you, all this would
happen right before they killed you in a most efficient method.
Besides there scarry harry, they are not targeting civilians, these babies
and innocent who are being killed are mostly a result of the suicide bombers
who do not care about collateral damage. The U.S. does every thing possible
to limit or eliminate collateral damage.
So why are you so against saving the lives of so many more humans? Do you
realize that the majority if Iraqi people are appreciative of the U.S.'s
presence there? Are you aware that over 75% of recent polled Iraqi people
now see a better future, better schools, better hospitals, and the medicine
that was once supplied to the Iraqi people by the U.S. is now going to those
who need it and not Saddam's black market. The schools are modernized and
even the women are allowed to go to school.
So scarry harry, what was your point again? It seems selfishly aimed towards
your own personal interests, your not Iraqi and you do not live there, but
you disagree with what is happening. LOL,,, once again there Harry, you are
the limit,,,speed limit..
It is humanitarian efforts, and your right, the U.S. shouldn't have to do
this alone, the coalition forces need to have more membership and the U.S.
taxpayer shouldn't have to pay for this, there is no excuse why more nations
are not financially involved.






"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
John H wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:26:51 -0500, Jim wrote:

In 1946, the Nuremberg Tribunal concluded: "To initiate a war of
aggression is not only an international crime; it is the supreme
international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it
contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

Nuremberg also taught us that "just following orders" is not an excuse
for what the winning side declares to be war crimes. So while the
Germans couldn't get off the hook, neither can the Iraqis, who have been
told from the beginning of the invasion that if they DID follow their
leaders' orders, they would be tried for war crimes. And yet, the
sensitive American soldier who is told to drop bombs on undefended Iraqi
villages -- well, he must do what he is told to do and there's no wiggle
room. He is ruled by people with divine rights; the power that comes
from holding one hand on a bible and keeping the other outstretched to
the oil oligarchy.

What is the wing opening in the sky? What is darkening the clouds? When
does it descend in all its ominous power?
"The best lack all convictions, while the worst Are full of passionate
intensity." (Yeats)

Can you provide an instance where an American soldier was told that he
was to drop bombs on an undefended village and then proceeded to do
so?

I thought not. Now, what is the rest of your post worth?

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!


We've dropped plenty of bombs on plenty of villages in Iraq, and, by the
standards of modern warfare, these villages were either undefended
entirely, or were "defended" by a small rabble of irregulars whose
actions were small-scale and had nothing to do with the village, but,
rather, with saving their own skins. There are counts kept of the
non-combatant Iraqi civilians we have killed. The numbers are in the
thousands.

You think playing your "literalist" games gives you an argument? It only
makes you the bigger fool.

Is this what they taught you in the military? Amorality?

Tuuk wrote:
Harry, do you know how many thousands of lives have been saved? Would you
rather have allowed Saddam to continue his killing?

You mean, as opposed to us doing our killing, or the insurgents in Iraq
now doing their killing. Funny thing about killing...if you're the
victim, you're just as dead, no matter who does it.

No harry, you missed the point.
It must have gone right over your head.

Because of the U.S. and the coalition forces, lives have been saved. The
objective and long term outcome of this campaign is that lives will be saved
and the quality of life will be much greater.

So there harry, don't make a stupid statement like the U.S. is intentionally
targeting civilians or innocent lives, that is what the suicide bombers are
doing. The U.S. is putting a stop to this terrorism. Saddam would reward the
suicide bombers with money for their lives and so these brainwashed
simpletons just walk into a disco like Bali, or motels or airports or
embassies or Red Cross stations or simply crowded markets. Crowded with as
many people as possible. These people's objective is to kill as many
Americans or Christians as possible. Now, Harry, your government is trying
to put a stop to this and what was your objection to that?
This is war there Harry, in war there are deaths, but the longer term
objective there Harry is lives saved. Do you get that point? The U.S. isn't
targeting innocent, or civilians there Harry, where did you even get that
idea? Why would you even suggest such a thing. Sorry harry but you asked for
this one,,,,,,,,
Ya gotta give the head a shake for this one.......






"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Tuuk wrote:
Harry, do you know how many thousands of lives have been saved? Would
you
rather have allowed Saddam to continue his killing?

You mean, as opposed to us doing our killing, or the insurgents in Iraq
now doing their killing. Funny thing about killing...if you're the
victim, you're just as dead, no matter who does it.

"Are you aware that over 75% of recent polled Iraqi people"

What would you expect them to say to a bunch of "survey takers" carrying
rifles? I'm surprised 25% had the courage to say no.

Tuuk wrote:
Harry, do you know how many thousands of lives have been saved? Would you
rather have allowed Saddam to continue his killing? Come on there Harry, you
enjoy freedom of speech here in the west,,,, yes?? I mean your always
barking at the government for what you think is not efficient or not right.
Do you know what would happen to you in Iraq? Well, first, they would rape
your daughters and rape your wife right in front of you, all this would
happen right before they killed you in a most efficient method.
Besides there scarry harry, they are not targeting civilians, these babies
and innocent who are being killed are mostly a result of the suicide bombers
who do not care about collateral damage. The U.S. does every thing possible
to limit or eliminate collateral damage.
So why are you so against saving the lives of so many more humans? Do you
realize that the majority if Iraqi people are appreciative of the U.S.'s
presence there? Are you aware that over 75% of recent polled Iraqi people
now see a better future, better schools, better hospitals, and the medicine
that was once supplied to the Iraqi people by the U.S. is now going to those
who need it and not Saddam's black market. The schools are modernized and
even the women are allowed to go to school.
So scarry harry, what was your point again? It seems selfishly aimed towards
your own personal interests, your not Iraqi and you do not live there, but
you disagree with what is happening. LOL,,, once again there Harry, you are
the limit,,,speed limit..
It is humanitarian efforts, and your right, the U.S. shouldn't have to do
this alone, the coalition forces need to have more membership and the U.S.
taxpayer shouldn't have to pay for this, there is no excuse why more nations
are not financially involved.






"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

John H wrote:


On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:26:51 -0500, Jim wrote:


In 1946, the Nuremberg Tribunal concluded: "To initiate a war of
aggression is not only an international crime; it is the supreme
international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it
contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

Nuremberg also taught us that "just following orders" is not an excuse
for what the winning side declares to be war crimes. So while the
Germans couldn't get off the hook, neither can the Iraqis, who have been
told from the beginning of the invasion that if they DID follow their
leaders' orders, they would be tried for war crimes. And yet, the
sensitive American soldier who is told to drop bombs on undefended Iraqi
villages -- well, he must do what he is told to do and there's no wiggle
room. He is ruled by people with divine rights; the power that comes

from holding one hand on a bible and keeping the other outstretched to

the oil oligarchy.

What is the wing opening in the sky? What is darkening the clouds? When
does it descend in all its ominous power?
"The best lack all convictions, while the worst Are full of passionate
intensity." (Yeats)

Can you provide an instance where an American soldier was told that he
was to drop bombs on an undefended village and then proceeded to do
so?

I thought not. Now, what is the rest of your post worth?

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!


We've dropped plenty of bombs on plenty of villages in Iraq, and, by the
standards of modern warfare, these villages were either undefended
entirely, or were "defended" by a small rabble of irregulars whose
actions were small-scale and had nothing to do with the village, but,
rather, with saving their own skins. There are counts kept of the
non-combatant Iraqi civilians we have killed. The numbers are in the
thousands.

You think playing your "literalist" games gives you an argument? It only
makes you the bigger fool.

Is this what they taught you in the military? Amorality?

"Jim" wrote in message

What would you expect them to say to a bunch of "survey takers" carrying
rifles? I'm surprised 25% had the courage to say no.

Not so, Jim. Zogby and a couple of others have been polling in Iraq since
fairly soon after major hostilities ceased. They've been very careful and
particular to ensure that polling is conducted with no other persons
present, and in an isolated fashion. They've hired local young civilians
fluent in English and the local dialects, and follow procedures similar to
those used in other countries to ensure, insofar as possible, that the
process is objective and free of taint. Polling is NOT conducted by troops,
except, of course for polls conducted directly by the Army. In those cases,
incidentally, the Army's poll results are congruent with the civilian polls.

" Tuuk" wrote in message ...
Harry, do you know how many thousands of lives have been saved?

Harry could care less, he is just here to deflect Jim from having to
answer Johns question which was, something like "could he note one
time when pilots were told to go and bomb innocent folks". Of course
he could not and that is what is problematic of the Democratic party
in general, they will run with any lie if they think it will help them
fool the uninformed...

Backyard Renegade wrote:

" Tuuk" wrote in message ...
Harry, do you know how many thousands of lives have been saved?

Harry could care less, he is just here to deflect Jim from having to
answer Johns question which was, something like "could he note one
time when pilots were told to go and bomb innocent folks". Of course
he could not and that is what is problematic of the Democratic party
in general, they will run with any lie if they think it will help them
fool the uninformed...


The two of you together can't count to 20 without using your toes and
fingers, so tell me...how many thousands of lives have been saved by
whatever activity you are claiming saved them.

Be definitive. You asked for a specific answer; you ought to be prepared
to give one. And don't forget to offer proof of your answer.

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:08:11 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Backyard Renegade wrote:

" Tuuk" wrote in message ...
Harry, do you know how many thousands of lives have been saved?

Harry could care less, he is just here to deflect Jim from having to
answer Johns question which was, something like "could he note one
time when pilots were told to go and bomb innocent folks". Of course
he could not and that is what is problematic of the Democratic party
in general, they will run with any lie if they think it will help them
fool the uninformed...


The two of you together can't count to 20 without using your toes and
fingers, so tell me...how many thousands of lives have been saved by
whatever activity you are claiming saved them.

Be definitive. You asked for a specific answer; you ought to be prepared
to give one. And don't forget to offer proof of your answer.

Read the question, Harry. "Can you provide an instance where an
American soldier was told that he was to drop bombs on an undefended
village and then proceeded to do so?"

If you can't answer the question, go play mosquito somewhere else.

Neither I nor anyone else made claims of 'saving lives'. But since you
ask:
*********************************************
Society for Animal Welfare Opens in Baghdad With Soldiers’ Help

by Spc. Chad D. Wilkerson, 372nd MPAD

BAGHDAD, Iraq – The Coalition forces’ contributions to the nation of
Iraq are focused toward improving the lives of its citizens. In some
cases, however, the benefits are not limited only to humans.

With the help of military personnel from 1st Armored Division and V
Corps and funding from the 22nd Signal Brigade, Iraqi veterinarians
cut the grand opening ribbon at the Iraqi Society for Animal Welfare
in central Baghdad Jan 21.

The society, made up of military and civilian veterinarians and
ministry officials, was formed to address the growing need for animal
control in Baghdad.

“It is the first of its kind in the country,” said Capt. William
Sumner, arts, monuments and archives officer for the 354th Civil
Affairs Brigade, an Army Reserve unit from Riverdale, Md., part of
Task Force 1st Armored Division. “The society will provide services
similar to our Humane Society in the U.S.”

Sumner said the studies of Iraq’s canine population revealed startling
results. Because one litter of pups can multiply into 69,000 dogs
within one year, the dog population in Iraq could cause problems on a
national scale if left unchecked.

“Diseases like leishmaniasis and rabies are problems related to dogs
and pose a real threat to Iraqis,” said Sumner. “Our organization will
be able to begin addressing these kinds of animal issues.”

The Iraqi Society for Animal Welfare will aid in providing solutions
to problems like canine overpopulation and disease control. It will
also provide adoption and spay and neuter programs, he said.

Until recently, cultural taboos involving animal care in Iraq
restricted progress and awareness. Dr. Farah Murrani, assistant
director of Baghdad Zoo and director of the Iraqi Society for Animal
Welfare, is an English-speaking Iraqi veterinarian who joined the zoo
staff last spring and acted as a liaison between Iraqi zoo workers,
U.S. Army veterinarians and civil affairs Soldiers.

Murrani’s willingness to touch and treat “unclean” animals, and her
heartfelt desire to aid her country, made her a prime candidate to
lead this new animal care center, Sumner said.

“I am a veterinarian, so I am doing what I know how to do in order to
help the people of Iraq and aid the reconstruction,” said Murrani.

Sumner, whose experience with zoo planning and operations allowed him
to play an important role in the establishment of the new animal
welfare organization, said the society’s formation is a first step
toward a safer and animal-friendly country.

“This is the first step in establishing an animal control program here
in Baghdad. We hope it will extend throughout Iraq,” said Sumner. “The
society is designed not only to help prevent animal cruelty, but to
raise the overall awareness of the public for animals in Baghdad.”
************************************************** **8

Now go buzz somewhere else.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!