On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:20:39 -0500, "Dr. Dr. & Mr Karen Grear"
wrote:

There is an old saying about Brokers.

"You can tell if a broker is lying if his lips are moving."

And the only difference between you and a broker is you're a pretty
good ventriloquist.

bb

Wow Harry, that $40k price spread between used boats sure sounds a lot
like what I've been seeing! Who can say that brokers use an average of
real past prices to choose their numbers. Sounds more like they make it
up as they go along, testing the waters for whatever the market will
bear, no fools refused. grin

Glad that your idea of restoring an older boat passed as it didn't
stick - nothing worse than investing your time and money in the wrong
boat at a time when used boats aren't selling.

But are they selling or not? Does anyone know the numbers? Possibly
we're seeing a strange market phenomena: Fewer new boat sales than the
market demand would otherwise prompt, due to unreasonably high prices.
Maybe a new generation of Marketing MBAs getting hired by boat builders
to raise their margins and profits? This would mean that even if new
boat sales are numerous, they could have sold many more at a friendlier
prices. By raising their margins and thus financially limiting the
volume of new sales, they've created a modern monster: the new boat
buyer looking for a NEW USED BOAT.

As some such boats exist, and have always commanded a healthy premium
over the price of worn and tattered boats, they fill this gap. This
would mean that they are no longer as before compared to used boat
prices, but instead to the higher and higher new boat prices which
pretend to promote etheral intangibles such as lifestyle change and
other imaginary necessities magically bestowed upon their owners.
Newborn harbor Easter bunnies are apparently hatching from chocolate
eggs and hunting down dockside campers with plenty of glitzy plastic
and varnish. Marina cocktail lounges, see what I can do cruisers, watch
me go sportboats have apparently become a desirable addition to 2.5
kids and the mandatory SUV. Ocean loving boaters, move over, or find
yerself a beater to fix up with loads of cash and TLC.

The fresh and reasonable used boat has become a fiction from the past.
Unless you like to pay sensibly more for a used boat than you would
have paid for a new one only a few years ago. In a boat owner's forum I
am a member of, one poster was thrilled that their 10 year old diesel
engines were appraised for insurance purposes at a higher price than
when they were new, and this wasn't at replacement cost. Apparently the
Marketing MBAs have infiltrated the entire boating industry, replacing
honest and sensible pricing with reasonable margins with hit 'em with
ever higher prices, who cares about making more sales and having more
happy customers if you can claim to be making more short term profit.
round of applause

But Harry, as you said, prices are negotiable, and this boy is getting
ready to play some tough snooker, brokers beware. If one says he is Bob
Krause the second, I'll cut him some slack. But others out there, you
ain't seen Lowball played this hard in a long time! Those small good
faith deposit checks are going to be raining on you - and you guys are
going to have to start working to earn an honest livin'.grin

I will NOT pay the inflated salaries of worthless marketing vultures
and subsidize bloated advertizing budgets by buying a new boat. And I'm
certainly not about to accept the consequences on the used boat market
of their insatiable appetite for profit. If I don't find a decent used
boat - at normal banking/insurance/buyer used boat guide pricing -
there will be NO SALE. And no, Gould, I will not throw away the price
guides.

Rich

Gould - I owe you.

QUOTE:

"As far as sending earnest money to out of state brokers you have never

met and for boats you have never seen.......don't do it, please. See if

you can find one local broker you like and trust, even if that party
doesn't have a listing right now that matches your want list. (In most
areas of the country, 10-year-old 30-foot cruisers are likely to be
somewhat scarce at the $30,000 level). Use the local broker you like
and trust to represent your offers. If you make a deposit on an out of
state boat through your local broker your money goes into the trust
account of the local guy you like and know- not some guy 1000 miles
away
who may be doing business out of the phone booth at the back of a
waterfront bar.
Your broker will share the sales commission with the listing broker, so

it won't cost the seller any more and shoudn't cost you an extra dime."


You have just saved me money, worries, more money and maybe even gotten
me to stick with it and finally reach that lofty twilight cieling of
stars, the right boat.

Deeply grateful,

Rich

Hi Guys,

Thanks again to those on topic. Others here, this thread which of
course I do not own, I started to discuss an important issue to all
boaters, buyers, sellers and owners: Prices of Used Boats.

Clearly there is no (or little) monitoring of these discussions, as
the topic now looks like "Who is the biggest A$$Hole and why". Please
start a separate thread to trash one another. Some of us are not
trying to measure our egos against typed text on the internet. These
groups are a very useful tool to raise issues and find solutions to
what looks like complex problems.

Possibly none of the folks disrupting this thread are actual people,
acting as individuals, but interest groups trying to kill any useful
source of boat pricing information? Lord knows there is now more
"pollution" in this thread than content. Had it been their intention,
they couldn't have done a better job of sabotage!

Others here beware. Likely the only ones with vested interest in our
not sharing information regarding boat pricing are people in the
industry who may wish to protect milk-cow profits. Be they from
overpriced manufacturers, price gouging dealers, corrupt brokers or
even industry hirelings, the idea is "keep 'em stupid and disinformed
- then grab all you can".

So the rule for these newsgroups goes:

- Buyer Beware

- Seller Beware

Somebody is out to get you - and your hard earned cash - in every
which way they can. Keeping us dumbed down is one technique among
others. It is apparently being used right here in this thread, with
trashing and flaming coming seemingly out of nowhere, possibly even
from non existing fictional characters. Otherwise, why spend their
time and energy belching fire here?

All my best wishes to all well-intended buyers, sellers and boaters
alike. Looks like there's a bunch of nasties trying to cut in on our
fun, and make us regret launching out to sea.

Cheers,

Rich

On 25 Mar 2005 06:41:13 -0800, wrote:

Please
start a separate thread to trash one another.

Since you've trashed quite a few folks in this post, can we consider
this a separate thread?

These
groups are a very useful tool to raise issues and find solutions to
what looks like complex problems.

And there were a lot of options proposed to arrive at fair market
value posted in this thread. Some just aren't willing to listen to
the options because coming to a realistic market value was never the
intention. I suspect you fit that mold of not looking for how to
arrive at a fair market value, but how to scam a seller into selling a
boat for far below it's current market value. Yeah, you're quick to
blame anyone who doesn't agree with your methods as a profiteer, but
it is you who is trying to take advantage of any situation to enrich
yourself. Just remember, just like a buyer deserves a fair shake, so
do sellers.

Possibly none of the folks disrupting this thread are actual people,
acting as individuals, but interest groups trying to kill any useful
source of boat pricing information?

Who tried to kill any useful source of boat pricing information? You
make the accusation, back it up. You seem a bit paranoid, imo. Don't
assume just because you're out to rip people off, people are out to
rip you off. It's always fun to watch con artists being paranoid of
being conned.

Others here beware.
Likely the only ones with vested interest in our
not sharing information regarding boat pricing are people in the
industry who may wish to protect milk-cow profits. Be they from
overpriced manufacturers, price gouging dealers, corrupt brokers or
even industry hirelings, the idea is "keep 'em stupid and disinformed
- then grab all you can".

You sound suspiciously like K Smith.

So the rule for these newsgroups goes:

- Buyer Beware

- Seller Beware

Yeah, it's good advice for everyone to beware. As you've so well
proven, there are folks out who's only intention is to rip you off.
Doesn't matter who you are, buyer, seller, dealer, broker, mechanic,
surveyor, captain, varnish guy, whomever, getting ripped off is a
bummer. You, and a few others of your type, seem to be able to
justify ripping anyone off if it benefits you personally.

Somebody is out to get you - and your hard earned cash - in every
which way they can. Keeping us dumbed down is one technique among
others. It is apparently being used right here in this thread, with
trashing and flaming coming seemingly out of nowhere, possibly even
from non existing fictional characters. Otherwise, why spend their
time and energy belching fire here?

All my best wishes to all well-intended buyers, sellers and boaters
alike. Looks like there's a bunch of nasties trying to cut in on our
fun, and make us regret launching out to sea.

Well, I think you got a lot of different perspectives on boat values
in the thread. You've been more than willing to throw out the insults
and flames, but seem to want to pretend to be offended by others in
the thread supposedly doing the same thing.

You're quick to accuse others of wanting to rip off buyers and
sellers. My perspective is you NADA folks are out to rip off sellers
in any way possible and NADA is just one tool you use. Please, can
the supposed high road stuff you're spouting, you are a freeloader
looking to take advantage any way you can.

You certainly have every indication of being what we call "bottom
feeders", those folks who are willing to do anything, and **** over
anyone, in pursuit of a deal they can brag to their loser friends to
over another 12 pack of Bush beer.

You've directed all your animosity and anger towards brokers. Guess
what, you don't have to buy from a broker. If that pricing guide you
seem to worship is correct, surely there must be private sellers out
there who have their boat priced in accordance with what you perceive
as fair value. Probably 1/3 to 1/2 the boats are available through
private sale at some time in their market history. Stop whining about
how the brokers and dealers are ripping everyone off and get that
super buy you/re wishing for directly from a private seller. Go
ahead, all you have to do is have the balls to show that private
seller a book that shows the seller is asking 300% of what his boat is
worth. It's not that brokers are dishonest, or corrupt, it's that you
don't have the balls to make the offer that you think is realistic
directly to a private seller. What you really want is for some poor
schmuck broker to do your dirty work for you. Then, after many
attempts, when the poor schmuck finally finds someone stupid enough to
believe your bull****, your next problem will be to figure out how to
cut the broker out of the deal.

Yeah, imo, you're a real piece of ****. From the seller, to the
broker, to the surveyor, to the boat yard, to the marina, to your
insurance agent, to the marine supply store, the mechanic, the
transient dock, park ranger, the dock master who doesn't appreciate
you pumping your holding tank in the marina to save a $3 pump out fee,
right down to the waitress that you have no problem stiffing, anyone
involved in doing a job that helps you in your endeavors, you are a
piece of ****. A freeloader. A con artist. You and your type give
anyone involved in boating a bad name. Do us all a favor and move on
to some other hobby where everyone owes you a free ride.

Oh, and one last thing. This is a public group You have no say so
about who posts here. Newbies, old salts, industry folks, scammers
(such as yourself), are all welcome to post their opinions here. If
you're uncomfortable with a plurality of opinions, it's much easier
for you to move on than to run everyone off who doesn't promote your
view.

bb

Hi bb,

All my apologies if my posts offended you. They weren't targeted at you
nor at any other poster here. I actually value your post, even if my
opinion isn't relevant on this public thread where anything goes. You
have discussed the issue at hand: boat prices - not who's mother
doesn't like a certain poster, etc. It was the totally off topic posts
which ticked me off, especially as I read quite a few in a row. I'm
glad some are in short term mode and should automatically disappear
after x number of days at the poster's request. It will make such a
thread more coherent to anyone coming along later and interested in the
topic of boat prices.

I'm new here, and thus not at all accustomed to they way communiction
goes, especially when several members have scores to settle. All I
asked is for them to "step outside" to deal with conflicts unrelated to
this subject.

I happen to agree with you about the attitude of squeezing unfair deals
out of sellers as being at least as unacceptable as squeezing unfair
amounts of money from buyers for boats which are worn and torn. Fair
prices are important, in human terms. You state quite justly that
nobody deserves to get ripped off, whatever their role in a
transaction.

However, with market forces governing prices (regulated prices don't
really seem to work in some cases) what often tends to happen is an
excessive pendulum motion between supply and demand. When it is a
sellers market, sellers (and brokers) tend to try to get as high a
price as the market will bear, even if to an outsider it might seem
excessive. As long as someone is ready to pay, who is to complain?

This is the view of "Contractarian Ethics" in which a contract is the
only measure of what is right and wrong. However, when a contract
defies your own values by being too non conforming to what you hold to
be minimum standards, then you might be entitled to view the contract
as "wrong" or "unfair", even if each party directly involved agrees. To
make my point in an exagerated way, selling an inflatable mattress for
$10,000 to a very uneducated buyer could seem wrong to some people,
while to others, if the buyer is happy with his mattress, it is none of
anyone else's business.

In a buyer's market, when there are many boats for sale and few buyers
to be found, buyers may tend to try to wrench sellers to the ground
prying their boats out of their hands for pocket change. This, of
course similar to a seller's behavior in a seller's market. And the
same issue of responsible behavior towards others in a transaction is
at the heart of the problem.

What seems to be in question is:

- if the price is made between consenting parties, does that make it a
fair price? (we remember the widowed grandmother suckered into
practically giving away her regretted husband's boat)

- if it is a seller's market, is it plausible that (as many banks and
insurance agencies say today) most boats tend to be overpriced?

- if it is a buyer's market, is it plausible that we consider most
boats as being underpriced?

Boat prices seems to be tributary to many factors:

Technical constraints: presence of navigable waters, availablity of
fuel and fuel pricing, availability of disposable income to purchase
leisure craft, credit reserves and interest rates, size of the boat
park correlated to the number of potential purchasers, taxation,
storage and maintenance costs, etc.

Psychological and sociocultural factors: attractiveness of maritime
activities, attitude towards watersports, lifestyle associations with
specific types of boats, social status implications, object fascination
with boats, and not in the least affective emotional attachement to a
boat, etc.

In my earlier postings I was not trashing sellers or brokers. We can
all observe that totally free markets tend to obey the logic of
anything that the market will bear will be the market price - even if
excessively high or low. However, it is my own personal belief (with
which many will disagree) that when you are in a dominant market
position (as buyer or as seller) you have the instrinsic responsability
to temper the urge to make a killer deal at someone else's expense. If
boats are cheap? Make someone's day by paying the seller's asking price
without trying to chisel them. When boats are overpriced? Try to
advertise yours for what you think it is worth, and not for what
speculative sellers/brokers elsewhere are trying to bleed buyers.

If I seemed biased in my above posts, it is only because I believe that
the boat market is currently overpriced in general. You cannot say that
this is untrue when some boats which have already used up the best
decade in their lifespan are priced in quite used condition
uncomfortably close to their original new price. But does this means
that all sellers/brokers are exagerating prices? By no means. Some boat
models which may be slow movers are seemingly quite low priced even
today, so I would advise educated buyers to look at them carefully and,
if they check out, cut the seller some slack. Don't apply further
downward pressure.

Cheers,

Rich

On 26 Mar 2005 06:33:43 -0800, wrote:

Hi bb,

All my apologies if my posts offended you.

Yeah, I was offended, but apologies accepted. It just rubbed me the
wrong way at the wrong time.

You post many pertinent questions in your reply.

I will say one more thing about the whole issue before moving on.
I've said many times to buyers, sellers and sales people, in this age
of the internet, it's very hard, if not impossible, to find an
uninformed buyer (not that I spend any time trying to find one). In
just a few minutes anyone can find the asking prices of similar
products all over the country. If you have a boat (or any other
similar product) that's overpriced, it's easy for any informed buyer
to figure you're out of line on your asking price.

Happy hunting.

bb