Wow Harry, that $40k price spread between used boats sure sounds a lot
like what I've been seeing! Who can say that brokers use an average of
real past prices to choose their numbers. Sounds more like they make it
up as they go along, testing the waters for whatever the market will
bear, no fools refused. grin

Glad that your idea of restoring an older boat passed as it didn't
stick - nothing worse than investing your time and money in the wrong
boat at a time when used boats aren't selling.

But are they selling or not? Does anyone know the numbers? Possibly
we're seeing a strange market phenomena: Fewer new boat sales than the
market demand would otherwise prompt, due to unreasonably high prices.
Maybe a new generation of Marketing MBAs getting hired by boat builders
to raise their margins and profits? This would mean that even if new
boat sales are numerous, they could have sold many more at a friendlier
prices. By raising their margins and thus financially limiting the
volume of new sales, they've created a modern monster: the new boat
buyer looking for a NEW USED BOAT.

As some such boats exist, and have always commanded a healthy premium
over the price of worn and tattered boats, they fill this gap. This
would mean that they are no longer as before compared to used boat
prices, but instead to the higher and higher new boat prices which
pretend to promote etheral intangibles such as lifestyle change and
other imaginary necessities magically bestowed upon their owners.
Newborn harbor Easter bunnies are apparently hatching from chocolate
eggs and hunting down dockside campers with plenty of glitzy plastic
and varnish. Marina cocktail lounges, see what I can do cruisers, watch
me go sportboats have apparently become a desirable addition to 2.5
kids and the mandatory SUV. Ocean loving boaters, move over, or find
yerself a beater to fix up with loads of cash and TLC.

The fresh and reasonable used boat has become a fiction from the past.
Unless you like to pay sensibly more for a used boat than you would
have paid for a new one only a few years ago. In a boat owner's forum I
am a member of, one poster was thrilled that their 10 year old diesel
engines were appraised for insurance purposes at a higher price than
when they were new, and this wasn't at replacement cost. Apparently the
Marketing MBAs have infiltrated the entire boating industry, replacing
honest and sensible pricing with reasonable margins with hit 'em with
ever higher prices, who cares about making more sales and having more
happy customers if you can claim to be making more short term profit.
round of applause

But Harry, as you said, prices are negotiable, and this boy is getting
ready to play some tough snooker, brokers beware. If one says he is Bob
Krause the second, I'll cut him some slack. But others out there, you
ain't seen Lowball played this hard in a long time! Those small good
faith deposit checks are going to be raining on you - and you guys are
going to have to start working to earn an honest livin'.grin

I will NOT pay the inflated salaries of worthless marketing vultures
and subsidize bloated advertizing budgets by buying a new boat. And I'm
certainly not about to accept the consequences on the used boat market
of their insatiable appetite for profit. If I don't find a decent used
boat - at normal banking/insurance/buyer used boat guide pricing -
there will be NO SALE. And no, Gould, I will not throw away the price
guides.

Rich

Gould - I owe you.

QUOTE:

"As far as sending earnest money to out of state brokers you have never

met and for boats you have never seen.......don't do it, please. See if

you can find one local broker you like and trust, even if that party
doesn't have a listing right now that matches your want list. (In most
areas of the country, 10-year-old 30-foot cruisers are likely to be
somewhat scarce at the $30,000 level). Use the local broker you like
and trust to represent your offers. If you make a deposit on an out of
state boat through your local broker your money goes into the trust
account of the local guy you like and know- not some guy 1000 miles
away
who may be doing business out of the phone booth at the back of a
waterfront bar.
Your broker will share the sales commission with the listing broker, so

it won't cost the seller any more and shoudn't cost you an extra dime."


You have just saved me money, worries, more money and maybe even gotten
me to stick with it and finally reach that lofty twilight cieling of
stars, the right boat.

Deeply grateful,

Rich

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On 21 Mar 2005 08:38:28 -0800, wrote:

Some folks might find it of
great value to unload their used boat fast at a very low price. Other
folks might never be able to live down the perceived loss of their
initial investment and prefer to wait for an imaginary buyer, leaving
the task of selling the boat to their heirs upon their demise. So the
real market price would be what two rational people, a buyer and a
seller, come to agree upon as a fair and "rational" price based upon
costs incurred by the initial owner, costs which will be transfered
with the purchase to the next owner, with some allowance for emotional
attachment of either party distorting the mix.

Well said.


He is missing one important part of the mix.....the supply and demand for
like boats....what may be a 'fair and rationale' price goes out the window
when there is a sudden influx of newer boats being dumped on the market by
laid off dot com'ers. :-)

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:20:39 -0500, "Dr. Dr. & Mr Karen Grear"
wrote:

There is an old saying about Brokers.

"You can tell if a broker is lying if his lips are moving."

And the only difference between you and a broker is you're a pretty
good ventriloquist.

bb

Ever buy a boat, Doc?

(Not to be confused with a boat dock)

The value of the NADA used boat pricing guide is clearly stated on the
cover of the book itself, in Spanish.

Negotiating with the NADA book is one thing, but in some cases the
buyers decide that there is a "secret" stash of boats out there,
somewhere, all priced at or below the NADA book. Can't blame them- who
in their right mind would pay "high book" for a car in most cases?

The mistake is to decide that the NADA book is some sort of price
gospel and to assume that all sellers offering their boats for sale at
prices above NADA are out to rape and gouge the public. The boat market
is a lot more regional than you probably realize.

Then, factor in that in some specialized boats there may only be a half
dozen boats even built and sold, new, in any particular year. It's a
certainty that not all of the ten existing 1997 33' Ho Lee Smokers will
come to market in a given year, and in some years there may be only one
or maybe even no boats of that particular vintage and model even
offered for sale. Let's say there are two- one of the boats was run up
on the rocks and sold for insurance salvage at $15,000.
The other was in bristol shape and brought $110,000....(somewhat a
decent price as a new one now brings about $200k). NADA takes both
boats and calculates an "average" price of $62,500.
Totally useless. That price is 47,500 more than the junker brought, but
$40,000 less than the nice boat sold for. Is the nice boat really only
worth $62,500 because somebody dumped a junker at a sacrifice figure?
Did the guy who bought the salvage hull at $15,000 "steal it"?
(Probably not).

wrote in message
ups.com...
Ever buy a boat, Doc?

(Not to be confused with a boat dock)

Yes, 3 of them. Boats are like any other commodity, supply and demand
dictate their sales price.




The value of the NADA used boat pricing guide is clearly stated on the
cover of the book itself, in Spanish.

Negotiating with the NADA book is one thing, but in some cases the
buyers decide that there is a "secret" stash of boats out there,
somewhere, all priced at or below the NADA book. Can't blame them- who
in their right mind would pay "high book" for a car in most cases?

The mistake is to decide that the NADA book is some sort of price
gospel and to assume that all sellers offering their boats for sale at
prices above NADA are out to rape and gouge the public. The boat market
is a lot more regional than you probably realize.

Then, factor in that in some specialized boats there may only be a half
dozen boats even built and sold, new, in any particular year. It's a
certainty that not all of the ten existing 1997 33' Ho Lee Smokers will
come to market in a given year, and in some years there may be only one
or maybe even no boats of that particular vintage and model even
offered for sale. Let's say there are two- one of the boats was run up
on the rocks and sold for insurance salvage at $15,000.
The other was in bristol shape and brought $110,000....(somewhat a
decent price as a new one now brings about $200k). NADA takes both
boats and calculates an "average" price of $62,500.
Totally useless. That price is 47,500 more than the junker brought, but
$40,000 less than the nice boat sold for. Is the nice boat really only
worth $62,500 because somebody dumped a junker at a sacrifice figure?
Did the guy who bought the salvage hull at $15,000 "steal it"?
(Probably not).

Yes, 3 of them. Boats are like any other commodity, supply and demand
dictate their sales price.

***************

Exactly! Supply and demand, not a book.

The book does not dictate a price, but it can be an effective tool while
negotiating.


wrote in message
oups.com...
Yes, 3 of them. Boats are like any other commodity, supply and demand
dictate their sales price.

***************

Exactly! Supply and demand, not a book.

HarryKrause wrote:
wrote:

Hi Harry,

Honored I'm sure that you grace this thread with your renouned wisdom.
I've enjoyed reading your postings with relish time and time again!

I guess that I've figured that there is no "official pricing" on boats,
as it is a largely unregulated market, and because many folks don't buy
them based on rationality but after getting hooked at a Marina.

I can well understand that used prices are not an exact rocket science.
Among the zillions of points of view one can envisage, I see two
present in this thread which tend to cancel one another out:

A. Past prices make up the market, and thus an average of all prices
of boats sold is the real used boat price. The premise here is that
nobody in their right mind will sell you a comparable boat for
substantially less than another one might have sold for in the recent
past. This approach is however fundamentally flawed, because it fails
to take into account the people involved. Some folks might find it of
great value to unload their used boat fast at a very low price. Other
folks might never be able to live down the perceived loss of their
initial investment and prefer to wait for an imaginary buyer, leaving
the task of selling the boat to their heirs upon their demise. So the
real market price would be what two rational people, a buyer and a
seller, come to agree upon as a fair and "rational" price based upon
costs incurred by the initial owner, costs which will be transfered
with the purchase to the next owner, with some allowance for emotional
attachment of either party distorting the mix.

B. Extrapolations of technical and financial parameters establish the
value of the boat. Similarly to a cost accounting process, the
materials used, their ageing characteristics, their condition, a survey
of the boat, its features and options would constitute a rational basis
for estimating the value and price of a used boat. This approach also
fails to take into account the human factor. We're dealing with
emotional and sometimes irrational people who invest their ego and not
just their money into boats. We're talking dreams, aspirations,
expectations, and even neuroses getting projected into a boat's
purchase or sale. This means that in some cases both the buyer and the
seller make a deal and each feels that they've been burned. It can also
mean, though surely less often, that each party feels that they've made
out like bandits with a sweet sweet deal. Selling a used car I once
experienced that. It had given me so much trouble I advertised it well
under market price. The buyer was so excited he mailed me a check
without even seeing the car. He was a happy sailor. I was happy too, I
would have paid to get rid of it!

So please forgive me if I don't align my checkbook with actual sale
prices. Other people paid those prices for their own reasons which may
be sensibly different than mine. Prices tend to be "all over the place"
especially when, as you justly state, there is no organized used boat
market. So I'll keep my own grey cells as my best basis of pricing,
whether books, brokers or sellers think otherwise. I guess the real
market price I will end up paying (this will then become a "real" past
market price) is going to be what I'll be willing to pay = a lot of
boat for a lot of money.

Best,

Rich



A couple of months ago, in the doldrums of winter, as it were, I got the
idea (which thankfully has passed) that I would like to devote a lot of
spare time to refinishing/rebuilding a classic 28' deep vee fishing
boat. I found five boats that met my specs, all in what I would call
"fair condition. The model is somewhat in demand, but it hasn't been
built in, what, about two decades. Similarly equipped and in similar
shape, the owners' prices varied by $40,000, and were considerably
higher than any of the books.

My dad was a boat dealer. He subscribed to one of the boat pricing
books, and left them on the counter for his customers. When he sold a
used boat, it was based on "Bob's Pricing." If a customer said, "Hey,
Bob, that price is a little (or a lot) high," my dad would say, "Yeah,
well, all the used boats that leave here come with a 30 or 60 day
written warranty. I think this rig is worth $XX,XXX."

He only offered discounts to local policemen and firemen. Worked for him
for about 30 years in the business.

Used boat prices are negotiable, unless you are buying from a
reincarnation of my dad.




& the liar just can't help but lie:-)

Just like the brokers!!! so don't go near any of them. The brokers
don't even have a business, no investment, no capitol, nothing, they're
mostly failed used car salesmen & if you don't know what that means then
you deserve what you won't get.

As you said take the rego number go do a search of the title at say
your DMV or similar, then contact the real seller. You will find that
because the brokers are liars who will say anything to get a signed
listing the seller will be tied up for ages & the broker will be getting
his unearned commission regardless, so make sure "you" are not
introduced to the boat by the broker.

The broker doesn't care what price the seller gets really because the
commission is the commission & once they get the owner to spend money on
the boat on the false pretext of "helping get a better price" also the
broker gets it put in a "good selling marina" (all work, marina fees &
even surveys the broker is collecting their secret commissions on of
course:-)) they spend their lives grafting whatever kickback they can
get from anything or spruiking deceptive BS.

So essentially brokers are one of the few life forms below a franchised
boat dealer & that's almost life on Mars type stuff, however at least
the dealers have a real business, with real overheads, assets, stock &
staff etc, whereas the average slimey broker is just an unregulated
hangeron moron.

You've now been warned about both Krause the liar & the brokers, but
hey thanks for letting me file yet another of his lies:-) imagine if
that lying simpleton was "really" looking to buy a boat this winter???
what to go with all the rest of his imaginary boats??:-) & given his
entire life is lived as a union thug or through the NG he didn't make a
huge noise about it?? na this is just another of his lies, he's a
pathological BS'ter.

K

So the Krause lie of the day??? Here ya go:-)

So just getting back to the Hatt 43 lie:-) What happened was at
least 2 of the NG people lived near where he "claimed" he did & said
they'd settle if he owned a Hatt 43 or not by simply calling around &
taking a look:-) After all his usual abuse & fained "privacy" concerns
it was starting to look like his lying hide was about to be hung out to
dry:-)

This would be more than his ego could even contemplate, so in his
desperation not to be caught red handed (again:-)) he then lied again;
which despite it being totally unbelievable it allowed his damaged mind
to think he was still the big man his lies had created:-)

Doubt save to organise employment wrecking union strokes, he's
never even been to Florida but he desperately needed to get away from
the lie mansion & the lie Hatt 43:-)





We had the Hatteras for two years. Last year, out of the cold clear,
a broker approached me with an offer to buy. Our continued Florida
lifestyle was somewhat up in the air, because the two breadwinners
hereabouts were about to be offered long-term but temporary assignments
they could not refuse in the Washington, D.C., area. So, after being
romanced a little, we sold the Hatt for almost precisely what we paid
for it. Not bad, after two full years of use. And I mean full years. So,
we didn't "make" any money off the Hatt, but we didn't lose any, either.
The proceeds were prudently invested.

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:42:38 -0500, HKrause wrote:

K. Smith wrote:

Just like the brokers!!! so don't go near any of them. The brokers
don't even have a business, no investment, no capitol, nothing, they're
mostly failed used car salesmen & if you don't know what that means then
you deserve what you won't get.

So essentially brokers are one of the few life forms below a
franchised boat dealer & that's almost life on Mars type stuff, however
at least the dealers have a real business, with real overheads, assets,
stock & staff etc, whereas the average slimey broker is just an
unregulated hangeron moron.




Yet another psychotic screed from Karen Smith of Australia, the
self-proclaimed "inventor" of the "Taipan line" of diesel outboards no
one has heard of, and, in fact, no one in the marine industry has heard
of Karen Smith, either.

But she presents a detailed knowledge of marine engines. One which some folks
can only snipe at with their inane comments.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."