Hi Guys & Gals,

I'm sure you've all had experience buying boats. I'm seeking advice on
how to understand used boat prices.

The 2005 Guide to Powerboats has a listing of used boat prices showing
Low Retail and Average Retail prices.

The online NADA Used Boat Prices shows retail prices which you can
customize by dialing in all the features and options on a given boat.

Here is where the problem comes in:


The boats for sale at brokers - in the brand and model I am looking to
purchase - are listed at around DOUBLE their official pricing on the
price rating lists.


=A4 Is this due to a Poker style "bluff" of the sellers trying to push
people to make higher offers?

=A4 Is it due to the brokers trying to swindle unexpected first time
buyers who don't know the market?

=A4 Are the Price Guides totally off base when it comes to real market
prices?


I've heard that today we are in a "buyer's market". Is this a myth? Or
is it only true for certain boat models/sizes/ages? Is it normal to
find prices on 10-year old boats above their prices BRAND NEW in 1995
?!?


Basically, I'd like to make offers on boats which correspond to the
official pricing on professional lists. Do Brokers have an obligation
to communicate my offers to sellers? Can I write a seller a letter,
explaining my offer, and will it reach the seller? Or will the Broker
just put it in the shredder? Do I need to send it notarized and by
registered mail, just to make sure it reaches the seller?


Or should I hire a BUYER'S BROKER to defend my interest... and possibly
jump into the snake pit?


Your mystified rec.boats buddy,

Rich

Lose the broker altogether. They have to charge more in order to make their
sales commission. Buy from an individual and have a boat survey done
instead.

Lose the broker altogether. They have to charge more in order to make
their
sales commission. Buy from an individual and have a boat survey done
instead.


****************

There's a goofy comment for you. There are a lot of FSBO boats on the
market priced so ridiculously high that no broker will spend the money
required to market the boat. Just because a boat is FSBO doesn't mean
the seller has reduced his or her price by 10% so they can save the
*buyer* any money. Most FSBO sellers want to get every dime as much
selling privately as the broker could sell the same boat for. FSBO is
primarily concerned with what he's putting into his own pocket, and
that will be as much as he can possibly extract from yours.

Get a survey done *instead* of using a broker? Yowzers! Using a broker
is no substitute for a survey. Always survey, whether FSBO or broker. I
wonder if everybody actually has a clear understanding of the roles of
a broker and a surveyor in a boat transaction? Sometimes I see things
that persuade me there may be a lot of folks underinformed or
misinformed on these issues.

On 20 Mar 2005 22:54:37 -0800, wrote:

Hi Guys & Gals,

I'm sure you've all had experience buying boats. I'm seeking advice on
how to understand used boat prices.

The 2005 Guide to Powerboats has a listing of used boat prices showing
Low Retail and Average Retail prices.

The online NADA Used Boat Prices shows retail prices which you can
customize by dialing in all the features and options on a given boat.

Here is where the problem comes in:

The boats for sale at brokers - in the brand and model I am looking to
purchase - are listed at around DOUBLE their official pricing on the
price rating lists.

¤ Is this due to a Poker style "bluff" of the sellers trying to push
people to make higher offers?

Sometimes. Sometimes, it's a local thing. Some types of boats sell
better in one location than another. For instance, I have a Ranger
Bay Boat which is not a great seller up here in the North East, but if
it was in Florida, that's a whole different market for this type of
boat.

¤ Is it due to the brokers trying to swindle unexpected first time
buyers who don't know the market?

I'm not sure what you mean. Yes, brokered boats are higher than what
the price quides show, but it's more a case of taking the high average
figure and adding 10% for negotiating room. Most brokers are fairly
up front about a boat, but then again they don't' go digging into how
sound the boat is usually taking the owner's word for it.

¤ Are the Price Guides totally off base when it comes to real market
prices?

In my experience, no. Then again, the type of boats I have purchased
fall into a different category. If you are talking bass boats for
example, then they are fairly accurate. Mid-range boats like 18 to 25
foot runabouts, pocket cruisers, etc., they are a little less
accurate. Larger boats, they are a guideline only based on market
averages.

The one that I've found is almost dead on is the Regional NADA price
guide. Again, in the larger boats, it's a guideline, but a fairly
accurate one. I need to emphasize that that for larger boats, that is
a guideline, not a dead accurate price guide.

I've heard that today we are in a "buyer's market". Is this a myth? Or
is it only true for certain boat models/sizes/ages? Is it normal to
find prices on 10-year old boats above their prices BRAND NEW in 1995
?!?

Heh - the used boat market is flooded. Most dealers won't trade boats
anymore there are so many used boats on the market. Part of the
reason for the rather higher prices is financing - folks naturally
would like to recoup part of their costs or they got into the boat
over and above what they should have, etc. Nobody likes to take a
loss on a boat.

With respect to prices on 10 year old boats, if you are seeing prices
above and beyond prices when brand new you need to expand your search
considerably. If you are talking 18 to 20 year old boats, then that's
a possibility considering inflation or machinery upgrades, etc.

With respect to pricing, locally with most brokers around here (CT and
environs), prices seem to be in line with what the boat actually is
worth and that includes the larger boats. Some people are trying to
get more than what they are worth, but most are in line. Folks know
the used boat market is flooded and if they can't find one here, they
can find one there.

The problem is that most boats are being dragged below their actual
value by the sheer amount of used boats on the market. And it's only
going to get worse.

Basically, I'd like to make offers on boats which correspond to the
official pricing on professional lists. Do Brokers have an obligation
to communicate my offers to sellers? Can I write a seller a letter,
explaining my offer, and will it reach the seller? Or will the Broker
just put it in the shredder? Do I need to send it notarized and by
registered mail, just to make sure it reaches the seller?

No. totally ignore what the broker says, write a check that reflects
their policy (if the broker requires more than 10% as a good faith
offer, then run for the exit and find another broker), present your
offer and he/she is obligated by law to present your offer to the
seller. If it's a clean boat to your eye and you know what the
guideline says for that particular boat, then make that offer - it's
as simple as that.

Now, the buyer can counter offer and so on which is what normally
happens. The ethics of the situation prevents the broker from saying
to the buyer "we can get more for your boat" (this does not mean that
the broker does that) and the seller has the right to refuse the offer
or negotiate - simple as that.

It's like a house contract. Put contingencies into the offer contract
like acceptable (to the buyer) survey and such as that.

A lot of times, if the survey produces some problems, then it's
negotiation time. I'll give you a for instance. Last summer, I
looked at a 28 Topaz that to my eye, needed some help, but was what I
thought was in decent shape. The broker said the owner wanted 19K
firm, but I offered 16K which was about what the boat was worth. She
was obligated to present the offer which the buyer accepted. My
contingency was acceptable survey. Survey done, boat is in tougher
shape than I figured. I changed my offer based on the survey to 8K
because the repairs were going to be extensive plus the boat had to be
transported by land to where I could work on it - it's wasn't sea
worthy. The owner came back with a 10K counter offer, but I passed -
it wasn't worth it to me. Good Faith funds returned and I moved on.

Oh, one more thing - don'f fall for the administration fee bit.

Or should I hire a BUYER'S BROKER to defend my interest... and possibly
jump into the snake pit?

Nah - that's an over complication. You should protect your own
interest by adding contingencies and forcing a survey - etc.

If there was one piece of advice I can offer that is really important
is that you should talk to a lot of brokers and look at a lot of
boats. Compare new prices to older boat prices - do a lot of
homework.

Knowledge is the best defense.

Good luck.

Later,

Tom

On 20 Mar 2005 22:54:37 -0800, wrote:

Hi Guys & Gals,

I'm sure you've all had experience buying boats. I'm seeking advice on
how to understand used boat prices.


The online NADA Used Boat Prices shows retail prices which you can
customize by dialing in all the features and options on a given boat.

Here is where the problem comes in:


The boats for sale at brokers - in the brand and model I am looking to
purchase - are listed at around DOUBLE their official pricing on the
price rating lists.

While looking for a center console recently I found that most used
boats were priced somewhere around the NADA list. Some were slightly
below- some slightly above and a few were substantially above. After
looking for several months and having an interest in several I went to
the boat show and found what I was looking for and only cost a few
thousand more than the used boats I had selected. This boat had all of
the features I wanted plus a warranty. I never thought I would buy a
new boat but I found the used market was not as soft as I expected it
to be so I took the plunge. NADA is a pretty good guide but local
market demands will have a much more serious impact on pricing. Good
luck with your search.

Tom.............

Hi Stanley,

You're right math wise, but it seems that the price difference I'm
looking at is way more than just a 10% commission. Something else
entirely is definitely going on here. Looks to me like a boat market
bubble having a hard time busting slowly, with brokers doing all they
can to keep it from happening even if it means killing sales. Is it now
a waiting game until they skirt bankruptcy? Just a wild uneducated
guess...

Thanks anyways for your suggestion,

Rich

Hi Tom,

Your take on honest brokers is certainly a refreshing one. Glad to see
your experience was so positive.

You're quite right about the local thing. Even the used boat price
guides, with all their much decried enexactitude, say that one must
adjust prices for several regions, lower prices being in Florida and on
the East Coast. I noticed higher advertised prices yet in Canada, I
wonder why (yes, they were converted to US dollars)...

I have a hard time believing that brokers are selling boats using
averaged real prices, even if the higher ones, that is unless they
average the 2 highest prices of the past 5 years? When a boat is listed
at $32k by ALL the different used boat price guides, including the
Regional NADA you recommend, and you see the overwhelming majority of
listings at double that or more, what gives? An extra forty thousand
dollars on a thirty thousand dollar boat sure sounds like some pretty
hefty "price padding". Maybe buyers in this price range and boat
category (sedan cruisers) don't look into their purchases in depth? Do
they just listen to a broker telling them the monthly payment and
getting them to dream of fishing on a lazy sunny afternoon? Hmmm...
this is one market phenomenon which definitely isn't clear. Either
there is a micro-category of folks with too few brain cells, too much
cash, or both all wanting the same boat, or these boats aren't selling
for nearly the amount at which they are advertised.

Thanks for suggesting that I steer clear of hiring a Buyer's Broker. I
guess that it is no solution, and that I'd only get the same problems
in double if not supersized! You're right on the money when you say
"Knowledge is the best defense" so thanks for the knowledge shared, on
my behalf and for others in the same situation checking out the
newsgroups. cool

Cheers,

Rich

Hi Tom,

Your take on honest brokers is certainly a refreshing one. Glad to see
your experience was so positive.

You're quite right about the local thing. Even the used boat price
guides, with all their much decried enexactitude, say that one must
adjust prices for several regions, lower prices being in Florida and on
the East Coast. I noticed higher advertised prices yet in Canada, I
wonder why (yes, they were converted to US dollars)...

I have a hard time believing that brokers are selling boats using
averaged real prices, even if the higher ones, that is unless they
average the 2 highest prices of the past 5 years? When a boat is listed
at $32k by ALL the different used boat price guides, including the
Regional NADA you recommend, and you see the overwhelming majority of
listings at double that or more, what gives? An extra forty thousand
dollars on a thirty thousand dollar boat sure sounds like some pretty
hefty "price padding". Maybe buyers in this price range and boat
category (sedan cruisers) don't look into their purchases in depth? Do
they just listen to a broker telling them the monthly payment and
getting them to dream of fishing on a lazy sunny afternoon? Hmmm...
this is one market phenomenon which definitely isn't clear. Either
there is a micro-category of folks with too few brain cells, too much
cash, or both all wanting the same boat, or these boats aren't selling
for nearly the amount at which they are advertised.

Thanks for suggesting that I steer clear of hiring a Buyer's Broker. I
guess that it is no solution, and that I'd only get the same problems
in double if not supersized! You're right on the money when you say
"Knowledge is the best defense" so thanks for the knowledge shared, on
my behalf and for others in the same situation checking out the
newsgroups. cool

Cheers,

Rich

On 21 Mar 2005 09:15:57 -0800, wrote:

snippage ~~

When a boat is listed
at $32k by ALL the different used boat price guides, including the
Regional NADA you recommend, and you see the overwhelming majority of
listings at double that or more, what gives? An extra forty thousand
dollars on a thirty thousand dollar boat sure sounds like some pretty
hefty "price padding"

I have to be honest, I haven't seen that in the past year or two.
I've been looking for a mid-sized boat between my 20 foot Ranger
(which I decided to keep - more on that in a second) and a 31 foot
Contender fish-around. I'm still looking. Most of the boats I've
looked at have been around 20% higher than what I would have expected,
but I don't think that's totally uncalled for - give some negotiation
room.

With respect to the Ranger, I had it on the market and actually had a
buyer for the boat - $1,000 less than I paid for it four years ago. I
added a T-top when I bought it, the engine had been completely gone
through top to bottom, the trailer had all new bunks, wheel bearings,
stainless steel discs and new pads, the gel coat is perfect with one
small whoopsie which I was willing to have repaired, new batteries for
the trolling motor, - in short, I've put a lot in it and felt that the
thousand or so off it's value was more for my mental well being that I
was selling a top of the line, mint condition boat for a fair price.
On a scale of one to 10, the Ranger is a 9.7 without exaggeration.

When the buyer wanted to have a surveyor for the boat, I kind of
wondered why, but at the time I said sure - practice what you preach
kind of thing. It is, after all, just a fancy bass boat. Turns out
that the "surveyor" was a buddy and they were going to try and beat me
out of 3 or 4 grand on the boat. I politely refused to renegotiate
and returned the buyer's good faith check - I didn't even cash it.
They went into a huddle in the driveway, came back and said they would
honor the original offer at which point I said the price just went up
10K.

So that's a story from the sellers side.

And I don't think I want to sell the Ranger anymore anyway - I've
become very attached to it. :)

In any case, good luck with the purchase process and enjoy it. It can
be a lot of fun and if you play your cards right, you will learn a
lot.

Live long and prosper,

Tom

When a boat is listed
at $32k by ALL the different used boat price guides, including the
Regional NADA you recommend, and you see the overwhelming majority of


Which make and model of boat have you been researching? I'm curious, and
would like to do a little fishing for one in my area to compare prices...
haven't found wildly inflated prices to be a problem here...maybe it's a
regional thing...