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On 20 Mar 2005 22:54:37 -0800, wrote:

Hi Guys & Gals,

I'm sure you've all had experience buying boats. I'm seeking advice on
how to understand used boat prices.

The 2005 Guide to Powerboats has a listing of used boat prices showing
Low Retail and Average Retail prices.

The online NADA Used Boat Prices shows retail prices which you can
customize by dialing in all the features and options on a given boat.

Here is where the problem comes in:

The boats for sale at brokers - in the brand and model I am looking to
purchase - are listed at around DOUBLE their official pricing on the
price rating lists.

¤ Is this due to a Poker style "bluff" of the sellers trying to push
people to make higher offers?

Sometimes. Sometimes, it's a local thing. Some types of boats sell
better in one location than another. For instance, I have a Ranger
Bay Boat which is not a great seller up here in the North East, but if
it was in Florida, that's a whole different market for this type of
boat.

¤ Is it due to the brokers trying to swindle unexpected first time
buyers who don't know the market?

I'm not sure what you mean. Yes, brokered boats are higher than what
the price quides show, but it's more a case of taking the high average
figure and adding 10% for negotiating room. Most brokers are fairly
up front about a boat, but then again they don't' go digging into how
sound the boat is usually taking the owner's word for it.

¤ Are the Price Guides totally off base when it comes to real market
prices?

In my experience, no. Then again, the type of boats I have purchased
fall into a different category. If you are talking bass boats for
example, then they are fairly accurate. Mid-range boats like 18 to 25
foot runabouts, pocket cruisers, etc., they are a little less
accurate. Larger boats, they are a guideline only based on market
averages.

The one that I've found is almost dead on is the Regional NADA price
guide. Again, in the larger boats, it's a guideline, but a fairly
accurate one. I need to emphasize that that for larger boats, that is
a guideline, not a dead accurate price guide.

I've heard that today we are in a "buyer's market". Is this a myth? Or
is it only true for certain boat models/sizes/ages? Is it normal to
find prices on 10-year old boats above their prices BRAND NEW in 1995
?!?

Heh - the used boat market is flooded. Most dealers won't trade boats
anymore there are so many used boats on the market. Part of the
reason for the rather higher prices is financing - folks naturally
would like to recoup part of their costs or they got into the boat
over and above what they should have, etc. Nobody likes to take a
loss on a boat.

With respect to prices on 10 year old boats, if you are seeing prices
above and beyond prices when brand new you need to expand your search
considerably. If you are talking 18 to 20 year old boats, then that's
a possibility considering inflation or machinery upgrades, etc.

With respect to pricing, locally with most brokers around here (CT and
environs), prices seem to be in line with what the boat actually is
worth and that includes the larger boats. Some people are trying to
get more than what they are worth, but most are in line. Folks know
the used boat market is flooded and if they can't find one here, they
can find one there.

The problem is that most boats are being dragged below their actual
value by the sheer amount of used boats on the market. And it's only
going to get worse.

Basically, I'd like to make offers on boats which correspond to the
official pricing on professional lists. Do Brokers have an obligation
to communicate my offers to sellers? Can I write a seller a letter,
explaining my offer, and will it reach the seller? Or will the Broker
just put it in the shredder? Do I need to send it notarized and by
registered mail, just to make sure it reaches the seller?

No. totally ignore what the broker says, write a check that reflects
their policy (if the broker requires more than 10% as a good faith
offer, then run for the exit and find another broker), present your
offer and he/she is obligated by law to present your offer to the
seller. If it's a clean boat to your eye and you know what the
guideline says for that particular boat, then make that offer - it's
as simple as that.

Now, the buyer can counter offer and so on which is what normally
happens. The ethics of the situation prevents the broker from saying
to the buyer "we can get more for your boat" (this does not mean that
the broker does that) and the seller has the right to refuse the offer
or negotiate - simple as that.

It's like a house contract. Put contingencies into the offer contract
like acceptable (to the buyer) survey and such as that.

A lot of times, if the survey produces some problems, then it's
negotiation time. I'll give you a for instance. Last summer, I
looked at a 28 Topaz that to my eye, needed some help, but was what I
thought was in decent shape. The broker said the owner wanted 19K
firm, but I offered 16K which was about what the boat was worth. She
was obligated to present the offer which the buyer accepted. My
contingency was acceptable survey. Survey done, boat is in tougher
shape than I figured. I changed my offer based on the survey to 8K
because the repairs were going to be extensive plus the boat had to be
transported by land to where I could work on it - it's wasn't sea
worthy. The owner came back with a 10K counter offer, but I passed -
it wasn't worth it to me. Good Faith funds returned and I moved on.

Oh, one more thing - don'f fall for the administration fee bit.

Or should I hire a BUYER'S BROKER to defend my interest... and possibly
jump into the snake pit?

Nah - that's an over complication. You should protect your own
interest by adding contingencies and forcing a survey - etc.

If there was one piece of advice I can offer that is really important
is that you should talk to a lot of brokers and look at a lot of
boats. Compare new prices to older boat prices - do a lot of
homework.

Knowledge is the best defense.

Good luck.

Later,

Tom