Scott:
============
From a Canadian perspective you're wrong: The vast majority of
"Scholars truly interested in, and deserving of a college education
*do* usually get there through the public school system"

That's an open question.
=============

Nope. it's a fact.

frtzw906

KMAN:
===============
I made no such presumption. The context was a student (and many more
like her), who repeatedly interrupted classroom activities with
violent
vocal and physical outbursts.

That's a hindrance!

Nope. It's an opportunity likely combined with a cry for help.

I agree with Scott.

The person is screaming "Why am I in this classroom with a curriculum
that
has no relevance or consideration for my needs, where I am being
humiliated
on a daily basis in front of the other kids who see that I am lost and
full
of anxiety and I don't have one friend and only thing worse than this
is
going to be when school is over for me and I haven't learned what I
need to
learn to participate in the community and I will be alone in the
basement of
my parent's house waiting to die for 50 years which is even worse than
sitting here and being humiliated."
===============

Of course. It depends on perspective. And in these cases, there are
several, and each is valid. To the average kid in the classroom,
seemingly irrelevant oubursts are a hindrance.

I'm sympathetic to the fact that it may represent something quite
different to the person with disabilities.

frtzw906

in article , BCITORGB
at wrote on 4/6/05 12:03 AM:

KMAN:
===============
I made no such presumption. The context was a student (and many more
like her), who repeatedly interrupted classroom activities with
violent
vocal and physical outbursts.

That's a hindrance!

Nope. It's an opportunity likely combined with a cry for help.

I agree with Scott.

The person is screaming "Why am I in this classroom with a curriculum
that
has no relevance or consideration for my needs, where I am being
humiliated
on a daily basis in front of the other kids who see that I am lost and
full
of anxiety and I don't have one friend and only thing worse than this
is
going to be when school is over for me and I haven't learned what I
need to
learn to participate in the community and I will be alone in the
basement of
my parent's house waiting to die for 50 years which is even worse than
sitting here and being humiliated."
===============

Of course. It depends on perspective. And in these cases, there are
several, and each is valid. To the average kid in the classroom,
seemingly irrelevant oubursts are a hindrance.

I'm sympathetic to the fact that it may represent something quite
different to the person with disabilities.

frtzw906

That's really the only reasonable way to look at it.

If the non-disbabled kid was put in a class where the curriculum was
designed for kids with intellectual disabilities, it wouldn't take long for
that kid to share his displeasure. I doubt his complaints would be
considered in terms of how the kids with disabilities were being
inconvenienced by his behaviour.

KMAN is stunned (as am I):
==============
It's not a matter of budgets, it's a matter of social priorities.

Cough. Sputter. Cough

Did SCOTT WEISER just say that?

He's becoming...gasp...a SOCIALIST right before our eyes!!!!
================

A very wise Canadian (by birth and youth), John Kenneth Galbraith
(later American ambassador to India, among other achievements) once
observed that just about EVERYBODY is an advocate for free enterprise
until such time as it comes to whatever their personal endeavor is.
Then, Galbraith noted, we could all find reasons why OUR particular
little niche in society needed special protection from the rigors of
the marketplace.

Methinks our Scotty reflects just that. Police? A *very* left-wing
approach to policing. Persons with disabilities (he hasn't told us what
his particular connection is to this field)? Money and social/community
support is not object!

Odd, isn't it?

frtzw906

KMAN:
============
But there's something better than what I might have to say, and that is
a
fellow named David (Dave) Hingsburger. Another name is Dick Sobsey. Two
Canadians at the top of their field when it comes to people with
intellectual disabilities and issues ranging from schooling to
self-advocacy
to sexuality. I had the pleasure of spending a few days with Dave and
his
insights just blew me away.
===========

Well, I have to say, your insights in this area blow me away.

Thanks.

frtzw906

in article , BCITORGB at
wrote on 4/6/05 12:22 AM:

KMAN:
============
But there's something better than what I might have to say, and that is
a
fellow named David (Dave) Hingsburger. Another name is Dick Sobsey. Two
Canadians at the top of their field when it comes to people with
intellectual disabilities and issues ranging from schooling to
self-advocacy
to sexuality. I had the pleasure of spending a few days with Dave and
his
insights just blew me away.
===========

Well, I have to say, your insights in this area blow me away.

Thanks.

frtzw906

Thanks, that's really nice. You must have a pretty open mind because I'm not
sure some of the stuff I am saying is exactly what you might have had in
your own mind before this thread warped into this, but you really seem open
to some of the perspectives introduced (or maybe they aren't new to you at
all, my apologies if so).

I've been involved with people with intellectual disabilities and their
family members (and teachers and the rest) off and on for the last 20 years
(totally "on" for the last 8 years and possibly the rest of my life) and I
can't believe how much they have taught me. My wife gets most of the credit
though for helping me mature beyond the superhero/macho approach to solving
problems and learning the real difference between supporting someone and
making their decisions for them.

I remember how my view on "helping" used to be "Listen to what they say the
problem is, and then tell them how to solve it." Man, what a power trip! All
well intentioned of course, but so, so wrong. And so, so dangerous a message
to send..."You are incapable of making your own decisions and choices, so
put your trust and give authority to others for those choices and
decisions."

No wonder people with intellectual disabilities suffer abuse at rates that
seem statistically impossible...it's because society actually trains them to
be victims. And you know the sad part? People who truly care about them are
usually the ones who unwittingly do the training! I should know, I used to
be one of them. And I'm not perfect now, but I am aware, actively aware, of
the extreme power imbalance that is in play and how I must challenge myself
every minute not to misuse it.

As per the typical school system approach (haven't been part of that system
for more than 10 years) or what they teach in college in "developmental
service worker" programs, I thought I was doing "behaviour modification"
which is better described as "I will take away your power and show you who
is boss. Even though I am doing this because I think I am helping you be
'normal' what I am really doing is teaching you to be powerless so that you
are ready to be abused by another authority figure who will use your learned
powerlessness to their sick advantage."

Supporting someone the "right way" takes a helluva lot longer than the power
trip techinique, but although both techniques might look like they result in
the same outcome, that is not the case. The right way is about supporting
the individual to establish goals and make choices and decisions to realize
those goals. This includes the right to make a bad choice or decision (a
right that non-disabled people have and use daily!) and get support to learn
from it.

Can you imagine feeling so powerless and anxious about decision-making that
as a 20 year old adult you were incapable of choosing between sitting in a
green chair or a black chair (these are identical chairs other than colour)
and that a refusal from others to make the decision for you would result in
an emotional breakdown?

Well, that's actually a pretty common phenomenon, and that very situation is
something I have seen with my own eyes. And this is a person that was
surrounded with loving, caring, well-intentioned people. People who somehow
trained her to be that way, and had the school system as an accomplice (yes,
she was "mainstreamed" by the way).

Helping someone crawl out of such a deep dark hole of powerlessness can take
years or even decades, and the results come slowly and sometimes almost
indescernably, but I find those little bits of progress are like home runs
or touchdowns if you look it at from the perspective of where the person is
coming from.

On 5-Apr-2005, Scott Weiser wrote:

Have you so little regard for privacy?

No, for veracity.

Your lack of regard for veracity has been well demonstrated.
No need for more.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 5-Apr-2005, Scott Weiser wrote:

Have you so little regard for privacy?

No, for veracity.

Your lack of regard for veracity has been well demonstrated.
No need for more.

Mike

LOL. OK, that was funny. Good thing I drink club soda, or my keyboard would
be a mess. And don't even think of making that into a sexualized retort.

A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote:

in article , Scott Weiser at
wrote on 4/5/05 5:24 PM:

A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:

Scott proposes a model tat contradicts earlier comments:
==================
It depends on the individual student, the particular class, and the
specific
needs of the disabled student. It may well require additional teaching
aides
to help the disabled student keep up. It may require special teaching
techniques and tools. It may even require modifying the *whole*
curriculum
so that the "normal" students participate in ways which help the
disabled
students through. Peer mentoring has had some success.
==============

I'm not entirely opposed to this. However, may I remind you that you
thought it entirely appropriate for wealthy parents, of brighter kids,
to take those kids out of the public school environment. Your point was
that they have every obligation to look after the best interests of
their child.

Let's go with that proposition.

What if I decide that it is NOT in my child's best interests to mentor
someone else? You claim the move to a private school, to "escape" the
public school environment, is appropriate for wealthy people. Where's
my child's right to "escape" and to have an individualized curriculum?

I never suggested that any child should be compelled to attend public school
if private schools are an option, I merely state that for those who must,
perforce, attend public school, they ought to be required to assist those in
need as a part of the curriculum.

Ah. That has nothing to do with "mentoring." That is one person being forced
to "help" another person who has not requested the help.

So? These are children, and they don't have the right to refuse to
participate in educational programs, even when those programs require their
active participation in teaching other students, or helping other students
who need help. It helps create a sense of community and responsibility for
others, which is something that is sorely lacking in today's selfish
society.

I also advocate mandatory national service upon graduation from high school,
either in the Civilian Conservation Corps (or other like public works
entity) or military service.


This is not only highly inappropriate, but dangerous. It helps teach the
person with a disability that non-disabled people are their superiors, that
they are deficient beings who must rely on non-disabled people, that they do
not make their own decisions about what support they want and who will
provide it, etc and so on.

Hogwash. Disabled people know they are disabled and are well aware of the
limitations they face and when they require assistance. Nobody is suggesting
forcing assistance on anyone who is able to do something for themselves. You
suggest that a student whose wheelchair is stuck in a hole ought to be left
there without assistance, even if the occupant is incapable of communicating
a desire for assistance. Certainly if a disabled person wishes to do
something themselves, their wishes should be respected, and they should
always be encouraged to attempt self-sufficiency, but when help is required,
there's nothing wrong with engaging other students in helping them.

All part of what contributes to making them an
extremely vulnerable population. It also teaches the non-disabled student
that it is appropriate and normal for them to assume a position of power
over people with disabilities.

Poppycock. There are no power issues here, there is simple human compassion
and friendship. Your argument presupposes a selfish motive in the teaching
of compassion.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

A Usenet persona calling itself Warren wrote:

In article , Michael Daly
wrote:

On 21-Mar-2005, Scott Weiser wrote:

Take a pill, your blood pressure is spiking...

**** off, dickhead.


A killfile would work better

Indeed. He's of the pinheaded stripe that ought to use a killfile.

killfiles are the final refuge of fractional intellects. It's the Usenet
equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "NYAH, NYAH,
NYAH, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

It's the tactics of a four year old, which fits Michael pretty well.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser