wrote:

Time for a spam review???? At least he marks the endless political
threads he starts with OT; wonder if we can get 'im to mark this crap as
OS for Only Spam???


Affordable Family Fun and Fishing!



Palmer Marine, of Port Orchard, Washington, has been building boats for
over 30 years.
Most Pacific NW'ers have probably noticed their brand name
"Tiderunner" on a line of durable, trailerable, fishing boats.
Palmer Marine recently expanded its product selection to include some
enclosed cabin boats that are still ideal for fishing, but are also
large enough to be used by a small family for weekend and vacation
expeditions. We recently enjoyed an opportunity to test Palmer
Marine's 260 Defiance. The vessel was in stock at a local dealership,
Signal Yacht Sales at Kitsap Marina in Port Orchard.

But do we still get the free steak knives if we ring in the next 10
minutes that's the real question:-)


The 260 Defiance appears to be very well built.

Hmmm coming from a used car salesman then used boar salesman I guess it
might "appear" as anything really. Time I suspect will prove otherwise
but hey read below & see how "appearances" can be a lottery:-)

There is absolutely no
structural wood in the hull or decks. Stringers, transoms, bulkheads,
and other locations constantly on the "watch list" when wood has
been used as a template or foundation for fiberglass should be trouble
free for the life of a 260 Defiance.

I suppose some modern boats still use wood but not many, so I guess you
can say hey they use a really cheap manufacturing method & wood in these
premises would cost them more??? But we're all agreed then no wood is
good news??? errr & the steak knives??? no woody handles I suppose??

The hand-laid hull is vacuum bag
molded with 100% vinylester laminate to assure a void-free wet out and
make blistering extremely unlikely.

See this is why these magazine articles are such BS, they're mostly
written as this one seems to be by the white shoe brigade who have
little boating experience & nil to none real boat design nor build
experience. Essentially they just parrot the marketing line they're given.

Seeing it's very likely if not for sure the writer does know how this
hull is made but because of the issues has chosen not to tell us, it
falls to me (again:-)) to have a go at explaining the hows, whys,
wherefores & problems.

The hull is "probably" NOT hand laid in the traditional meaning of the
words in the boat building industry, although it seems the builder does
know exactly what they mean because their web site is quick to tell you
the deck is "hand laid", which who knows??? hey it probably is. The
accepted meaning of that description is that it's not a foam sandwich
construction & further the glass AND resins are applied into the mould
by hand, as each layer is put in, it is then wetted out with catalysed
resin & has all the air "hand" rolled out which also helps to fully bed
down each of the layers into each other for good lamination strength.
chopped strand mat, woven, csm, wvn etc etc etc .

This is probably a foam cored boat including a foam core below the
waterline!!! This type of construction is not well thought of these days
& if moisture gets into the foam core below the waterline, you'll be
wishing there were some wood in the hull:-)

Further what our esteemed writer fails to mention is that the hull is
probably built using the "vacuum infusion" method which is potentially
very problematic for even the large flattish surfaces it was originally
invented for; much less this type of application. Like most spruikers of
course our writer has most likely already been told this is a negative
so fails to mention it (besides it can't possibly work with the already
made "hand laid hull" claim:-)), however as mentioned our writer goes
further & "pretends" it's a "hand laid" hull:-) What a BS'er. Is this a
socialist thing?? don't tell them the actual facts because hey buyers
might make their own minds up???

The hull is probably built using this method but we'll never really
know for sure because our writer only repeats the good news to help make
more sales, of course in some years time when you have huge problems
with the hull???? it's the Ficht/VRO soon to be E-Tec defense, well
golly gee never seen that before, this is a one off:-)

So here's how we "think" this hull is probably made & "if" correct then
it's suggested all be very very careful this is a problematic but also
very very cheap for the builder:-) method;
(i) Spray release agent (pva) into the mould then
(ii) Spray the gel coat in then
(iii) hand lay a thin tie layer of glass (at least bloody hope they
do:-)) then
(iv) by hand place "all" the elements of the layup in the mould (they
call it dry stacking) say a couple of layers of dry glass, the foam
core, then a few more layers of dry glass, then
(v) tape a sheet of oversized plastic over the whole thing so it's air
tight around the mould top then
(vi) vacuum the air out from under the plastic sheet then
(vii) Once all the dry ingredients are pressed against the mould turn a
tap on & allow already catalysed resin to flow, vacuum pulled in, so it
can seep up through the glass etc till it comes out the top.

The problems are;
(i) The dry stack might move or get displaced with all the placing of
other materials, foam core etc.
(ii) You can only use certain types of "open" glasses, i.e. normal
woven glass (very strong) doesn't allow the resin to flow quickly
enough, normal powder or emulsion bound CSM doesn't have time to fully
dissolve the binders, so they use multi axial mats (low strength) with a
knit over them to hopefully hold them all together till the resin
arrives, but in the mean time people are all over it!!!
(iii) The resins need to be very low viscosity (low strength) again so
they'll "flow" & hopefully not leave any dry spots on the laminate.
(iv) The operation has to be finished before the resin starts to gel
(15mins) so unlike a real hand laid hull, there is no real quality
control at all over the layup/impregnation process. It's all suck it &
not be able to see.
(v) There is a risk the resin impregnation will not be at a uniform
rate throughout, some areas might be overly wet (very low strength)
other areas might have low resin content (delamination risk particularly
as it's not hand rolled, osmosis &/or water into core.
(vi) once the process is commenced there is no way to know it's worked
well or disastrously, not till maybe in a few years time when the boat
delaminates or the core below the waterline is shown to be wet, but by
then of course:-)

The benefits:
(i) None to the boat owner just the inherent risks that it all went well.
(ii) Save the boat builder almost all the labour in building the hull,
no rolling none of that.
(iii) Saves the builder materials because they only allow a known
amount to sucked through the dry stack, the problem being of course that
some areas might be over wet & others almost or worse dry.
(iv) Allows the builder to cheaply comply with pollution & work safety
requirements.
(v) Reduces the builders labour costs dramatically

Dimensions and General Hull Design:

The Defiance 260 is 25'10" LOA. Overall beam is 8'6", with beam
at the waterline 7'6". Draft is approximately 18",

I mean just how much BS is a koala supposed to silently bear???? This
is supposed to be an article telling us actual boaters about this boat
yes??? it doesn't mention it's hardly fair to bill it as a 26ftr:-) It's
waterline length is a smidgion over 20ft!!! & that includes the
"creative" transom shape so the boat is more like a 23 ftr with an over
long but technically "built in" bow sprit!!! Our writer is either a
total novice or just part of the marketing spruik.

Come on!!!!

I'll read & review the rest once I get over this, I'm sorry is this the
standard magazine article you now accept as OK??? If so good on ya but
not me this is just advertising in a no spam NG but given every other OT
political thing the writer does here I suppose it's the standard
expected. I'll have a look at the rest later, I'm going boating for a
nice relaxing overnight trip.

K

The Krause lie of they day I hear you asking for??? OK it's not a
repeat; not till my new script starts appending them that is:-)

But I thought you should know something funny about this Krause lie
list, in the early days he went on & on & on about his Hatt 43 & yes
lots of people called him BS till he finally posted a pic of his Hatt 43.

Needless to say this lying grub will stop at nothing in his lame
attempts to be believed as a boater just as he did in the jetski NGs.

Oops so sorry rambling again:-) anyway the really funny bit??? ages
later someone finds the same pic on a Hatt web site!!! yes truly this
lying idiot lifted a pic of a Hatt 43 from a web site then posted it as
his own boat!!!:-)

But there's more!!! get his answer it's almost as funny as him getting
caught red handed, he claimed it was a "sister ship" to his!!! so that's
why he posted the pic as his own boat!!!


Here are some:



Hatteras 43' sportfish
Swan 41' racing/cruising sloop
Morgan 33
O'Day 30
Cruisers, Inc., Mackinac 22
Century Coronado
Bill Luders 16, as sweet a sailboat as ever caught a breeze.
Century 19' wood lapstrake with side wheel steering
Cruisers, Inc. 18' and 16' wood lapstrakes
Wolverines. Molded plywood. Gorgeous. Several. 14,15,17 footers
with various
Evinrudes
Lighting class sailboat
Botved Coronet with twin 50 hp Evinrudes. Interesting boat.
Aristocraft (a piece of junk...13', fast, held together with spit)
Alcort Sunfish
Ancarrow Marine Aquiflyer. 22' footer with two Caddy Crusaders.
Guaranteed 60 mph. In the late 1950's.
Skimmar brand skiff
Arkansas Traveler fiberglass bowrider (I think it was a bowrider)
Dyer Dhow
Su-Mark round bilge runabout, fiberglass
Penn Yan runabouts. Wood.
Old Town wood and canvas canoe
Old Town sailing canoe...different than above canoe




I own the following boats:


a 36' "lobster" style boat
a 19' center console fishing boat
an 11' inflatable dinghy
1/2 of a canoe


Those are the types of boats I currently own. I'm also in the market for
some interesting kind of lightweight flatbottomed skiff, similar to the
old Skimmar, for the "new" 51-year-old 10 hp outboard I recently bought.


One of the boats is kept on dry land within a half mile of Chesapeake
Bay. One is kept at a private covered boat dock in a little creek off
Chesapeake Bay. One is kept in the backyard of a friend who lives much
closer to the Shenandoah River than I do. And one is kept next to the
36-footer."



and
displacement is listed at 5500 pounds. The hull is rated for up to 400
HP. Deadrise is 22-degrees, and fuel capacity is listed at 135 gallons.
(Our test boat was configured for only 110 gallons, as it was equipped
with a third fish hold in lieu of an auxiliary fuel tank).

The deep-v hull incorporates some features that Palmer calls
"Stable-Trak" design. A well-flared bow and prominent strakes at
the chine permit the 260 Defiance to divert spray away from the decks
when running on plane, or to handle rough water with greater confidence
when slowed to displacement speeds.

Palmer Marine builds the 260 Defiance with a short but workable
foredeck. The foredeck and sidedecks are nonskid, with several inch
bulwarks and the cabin superstructure creating a very well defined and
secure "track" to use when walking forward. The track appears wide
enough for a rubber boot. There is a sturdy, stainless perimeter rail
system and handholds on the cabin top, but Palmer wisely anticipated
that many boaters going forward on the 260 Defiance would have both
hands busy with a fishing rod. The deep foot track in the deck promotes
hands free confidence. The side decks are designed to drain through the
bulwarks, rather than channel water from the foredeck to the cockpit.
An anchor pulpit is standard on the 260 Defiance, with a rode locker
immediately aft.

Our test boat was equipped with an optional stainless radar arch,
equipped with two forward facing lamps that might prove handy if
docking or loading aboard a trailer after dark.

Families planning to fish, or searching for a good space to erect a
folding table and a couple of chairs when relaxing at an island
anchorage next summer will appreciate the roomy cockpit of the 260
Defiance. The cockpit is self-bailing, with 27" bulwarks. Fish rods
can be stowed in dedicated recesses to both port and starboard, with
flushable fish boxes under nonskid cockpit hatches. The bilge pump, the
batteries, the hydraulic steering, and many other systems are
serviceable through an access door in the transom of the cockpit. A
series of cockpit courtesy lights, just above deck level, are standard
equipment and will be extremely convenient during predawn or evening
hours.

Our test boat was equipped with an aft cabin bulkhead, creating a cabin
that can be truly described as fully enclosed. The cabin door and the
sliding cabin side windows are aluminum framed and fitted with tempered
glass.



Interior Amenities:

For a 26-foot boat with a large cockpit, the 260 Defiance does a
commendable job of providing a decent cabin area. Headroom in the main
cabin is several inches over six feet.
A dinette, (with lockers below the seats) is located to port, and can
be converted to a single berth by lowering the tabletop and inserting
an additional cushion. The helm is to starboard, with cup or beverage
holders alongside and a small 12-volt refrigerator immediately below
the seat. A galley sink with potable water pump is just aft of the helm
seat, and our test boat had a handy Wallas stove to perform both
cooking and cabin heating chores.

Three people could sit comfortably in the cabin underway, with
additional passengers siting on the V-berths under the foredeck. The
V-berth area on our test boat had a folding door to create privacy.
Three overhead lights with red-bulb option for enhanced night vision
should provide very satisfactory illumination after dark. Each of the
individual forward cabin windows has a wiper, as well as a separate fan
for defrosting and defogging.

While many similar boats would offer a portable marine toilet as an
option, our 260 Defiance test boat featured a fully plumbed marine
head, with a pushbutton macerating flush system and a holding tank. The
marine toilet is concealed under the removable center cushion in the
V-berth.

The cabin fixtures are teak, and the durable fabric headliner is
secured with a series of teak battens.

There would seem to be enough cabin comforts to provide a basic weekend
cruising platform for a couple, with certainly one adult guest or a
couple of kids as well.


Observations underway:

Orrin Nelson, General Manager of Kitsap Marina, was kind enough to
allow us to use the 260 Defiance and accompanied us during our trial
run. Conditions were calm, and our test area was the Port Orchard
waterway. Speed was determined with a handheld Magellan GPS, and fuel
consumption by the vessel's optional Flo-Scan meter.

Buyers can specify a variety of outboard motors for the 260 Defiance.
Our test boat was equipped with a 2005, 250 HP Suzuki four-stroke
outboard. Orrin turned the key, and the Suzuki started instantly.

We noted an impression, in the cabin, that the boat seems to sit in the
water ever so slightly down at the bow. This is most likely the result
of an optical illusion created by the forward slope of the trunk
cabintop over the V-berth, as the boat appears to sit well on its lines
when viewed from a distance. If there were any bow down tendency, it
would be eliminated once the boat gets underway, and we finally decided
on optical illusion as the most likely explanation.

One of the advantages of outboard power can be a quieter cabin
environment. The Suzuki four-stroke is a smooth and quiet engine, and
placing it well away from the cabin results in far less noise than we
would have experienced with most inboard or I/O applications.

We motored away from the marina dock, picked an unobstructed portion of
the waterway, and throttled up to 2500 rpm. Visibility over the bow
remained excellent at all speeds during out trial, even when
accelerating from dead slow or a standing start. At 2500, we were
making 8.4 kts and burning 4.5 gph.

At 3500 rpm, we noted that the exaggerated chine was functioning very
well, with spray emerging only in the last third of the hull length,
aft of the bulkhead door. We were burning 7.9 gph, to make 15.5 kts.

We improved fuel efficiency when we reached 4500 rpm, with 12.1 gph
producing a speed of 26.7 kts.

Bringing the engine up to wide-open throttle, (6000 rpm), we consumed
fuel at the rate of 21 gph and the GPS read 36.4 kts.

The 260 Defiance proved to be nimble as we maneuvered at speed. The
boat leans just slightly in a turn, but the Stable-Trak chine engages
the surface to define the outermost extreme of the tendency at a
moderate and reassuring angle. Conditions were almost dead calm, so the
only seas we encountered were our own wake, and the 260 Defiance
produces only a small wake at any sort of cruising speeds. Slowing down
to come off plane, we turned into the larger wake and negotiated it
with a solid "thump" under the hull that we heard far more clearly
than we felt. One can easily imagine trusting this hull in any
conditions under which a sane Pacific NW boater would get underway, or
even worse conditions that could arise midway through a passage.

We slowed to idle speed, and noted that even with the 250HP Suzuki the
260 Defiance could be reduced to salmon trolling speed. The GPS read
1.9 kts.

"It would make sense to mount a trolling motor if a boater wanted to
do a lot of fishing," said Orrin. "Even though we can slow down
enough, most people would be happier putting hours on a smaller and
less expensive motor, rather than a $16,000 outboard."


Conclusions:

Palmer Marine's 260 Defiance should prove an excellent choice for
anyone interested in a trailerable fishing boat that is realistically
capable of doubling as an overnight or short vacation cruiser. With a
long list of options, our test boat had a "boat show" price of
about $83,000, including the 250-horse Suzuki and a galvanized trailer.
Cabin accommodations are basic and functional rather than elaborate or
extravagant, but for many outdoor-oriented NW'ers, boating is often
more about having fun on the water rather than lounging around in an
opulent interior. The five-figure price on the 260 Defiance puts it
within realistic reach of a greater number of ordinary income boating
families, and getting more people onto the water will be among the many
things for which Palmer Marine's flagship 26-footer will be
commended.

For additional information on the Palmer Marine 260 Defiance, please
call Signal Yacht Sales at Kitsap Marina: 360-874-0504

Hey Smith.......

Your post was #35 in this thread.

The first 34 were either discussing the merits of the boat, or similar
boats, and were civilized boating related exchanges. That's almost a
recent record for our sorry NG. Even Harry stayed on topic. You then
wade in and want to make a personal issue out of things.

Ever see one of these boats? Know a damn thing about their
construction except what you're guesstimating? Why did you feel
compelled to try and take a boating related thread into the crapper?

Face it, the only discussions you are comfortable participating in are
those where you are attacking somebody. That's the extent of your
actual expertise.

There are a number of specific benefits to the infusion method,
properly done. There are some weaknesses in roller lamination when
improperly done. I'd go through them with you but what would be the
point? You don't give a schlitz about vacuum infusion vs. roller
lamination. You merely seek a vehicle to make negative personal
remarks.

You're so insecure in your "knowledge" that you cannot compare or
contrast your opinions with those of others without also disparaging
the motives of the people holding opinions diverse from your own.

When was the last time you started a boating related thread, or made a
"positive" remark about anybody or any thing? ("I'm positive Gould is a
socialist spammer, Krause is a lying windbag," etc, doesn't count). You
lay about in the shadows, saying nothing until its time once again to
feed your appetite for insult and mayhem. You then descend on your
sticky little web, with all eight legs flaily wildly, and begin
injecting poison into all you survey.

Why not make a positive contribution for a change? Do you lack the
ability, or merely the desire?

On 5 Feb 2005 06:40:40 -0800, wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

There are a number of specific benefits to the infusion method,
properly done. There are some weaknesses in roller lamination when
improperly done. I'd go through them with you but what would be the
point? You don't give a schlitz about vacuum infusion vs. roller
lamination. You merely seek a vehicle to make negative personal
remarks.

Speaking of the difference, I've often wondered if they use different
resins in vacuum molds. In the roller method, the epoxies are fairly
stiff (usually due to the "induction" time in which the catalyst acts
on the resin), but it would seem to me to achieve proper penetration
of the glass in a vacuum system, the liquids would be fairly light.

Yes/No?

Also, I would thank you not to use the name Schlitz in vain - my
maternal Grandfather was Schlitz's Master Brewer for almost 30 years.

Harrumph!! :)

Later,

Tom

Speaking of the difference, I've often wondered if they use different
resins in vacuum molds. In the roller method, the epoxies are fairly
stiff (usually due to the "induction" time in which the catalyst acts
on the resin), but it would seem to me to achieve proper penetration
of the glass in a vacuum system, the liquids would be fairly light.

Yes/No?


***************

I was invited to the 25th Anniversary celebration of a local
manufacturer, Nordic Tug.
They had a few hundred people in attendance, from all across the
country, and almost all were Nordic Tug owners. Impressive turnout
during one of our rare snowy days and in the middle of January, but it
was like the gathering of an enthusiastic clan. I digress....

Nordic had a number of vessels on display in all stages of build and
fitout. Nordic had set up a demonstration of vacuum bag, or infusion
molding, in the laminate shop. We observed the molding of a cabin top.

The gelcoated mold gets one layer of vinylester resin prior to the
layup. This is to prevent "shrinkage" which could spoil the exterior
appearance of the finished component.
The glass mat and coring materials are then laid in place. For the
cabintop, Nordic uses three different weights of mat in the layup and I
would need to dig out my notes to be specific as to how many ounces
each fabric is rated. Many of the superstructural components in a
Nordic are cored, and a combination of serrated balsa as well as
synthetic coring materials are used in the buildup. All coring material
is designed to allow resin to flow throughout the layer, vastly
reducing any liklihood of a future separation between the FRP and the
core.

There is a difference in the layup process when preparing for infusion
molding. There are certain materials included that promote the flow of
resin throughout the layup and the entire process is conducted with an
emphasis upon assuring a maximum, thorough wet out. It isn't just the
same layup one would use with roller laminating and then vaccum
infused.

Once the layup is completed, a plastic sheet (vacuum bag) is placed
over the mold and some plastic tubed "plumbing" installed to remove the
air from the bag and create a vacuum. When the vaccum has been
estabished, the technician uses an electronic sensing device to check
the perimeter and the central vacuum connections for any leaks. After
the integrity of the vaccum is assured, the infusion begins.

Nordic uses vinylester resin. The technician explained to us that a
number of factors are considered when adding the catalyst to the resin,
including ambient temperature, of course.
The resin itself was heated to a controlled temperature, (about
70-degrees), and then the catalyst was added. It would be hard for me
to compare the density of the infusion method resin with what the
density might have been in a roller lamination- but I have no doubt
that the mixture was calculated to be optimal for infusion molding. A
valve was opened to allow the mixture to flow into the mold, and during
the minutes required for the dark colored resin to spread throughout
the mold the technician was constantly monitoring the flow and spread
of the liquid.
The greater atmospheric pressure outside the bag helped press and
squeeze the resin into the mat.

Nordic has been infusion molding cabin parts for some time now, and has
become so confident in the process that beginning in March or April
they will begin vacuum bagging their hulls as well.
When you put a ten year hull warranty on a million dollar boat (some of
the larger models are now well over the 7-figure mark), you want to be
sure the technology is first rate.

There are some potential advantages, in my opinion. For instance, the
assurance of a "wet" layup. I suspect that in many of the traditional
"hand laminate" processes there are gaps at lunch times, shift changes,
etc where an underlying layer of glass is allowed to cure just a bit
more than desirable before the next layer is applied....possible source
for future delam.
There is less opportunity for dirt, dust, etc to find its way into the
laminate and that can additionally help reduce the liklihood of
eventual blistering. The use of chopped strand to build up thickness is
inconsistent with vacuum bag molding.

Opinons from OZ not withstanding, there is no reason to assume that
infusion molding will always be done poorly and traditional roller
laminating always done well. I'd be happy with a well built boat
constructed through either process.

On 5 Feb 2005 14:00:42 -0800, wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

There are some potential advantages, in my opinion. For instance, the
assurance of a "wet" layup. I suspect that in many of the traditional
"hand laminate" processes there are gaps at lunch times, shift changes,
etc where an underlying layer of glass is allowed to cure just a bit
more than desirable before the next layer is applied....possible source
for future delam.
There is less opportunity for dirt, dust, etc to find its way into the
laminate and that can additionally help reduce the liklihood of
eventual blistering. The use of chopped strand to build up thickness is
inconsistent with vacuum bag molding.

Interesting write up - thanks.

Curious that you should mention roller layup and things like breaks
and lunch. My wife and I took a tour of the Blue Fin facility over in
Bristol, RI this past summer and I asked that very question.
Delamination is of particular interest to me because I've had that
happen on a rather expensive boat.

The owners told me that they have a rotating schedule for the floor
workers which prevents that from happening. Most hulls are produced
fairly complete in one shift.

The chopped mat system they use at Blue Fin was interesting - I hadn't
seen one quite like it. They used a much finer material that I'd seen
previously and a special resin mix - looked almost like water.

In fact the whole damn tour was pretty interesting.

Great birthday present. :)

Later,

Tom

wrote:
Speaking of the difference, I've often wondered if they use different
resins in vacuum molds. In the roller method, the epoxies are fairly
stiff (usually due to the "induction" time in which the catalyst acts
on the resin), but it would seem to me to achieve proper penetration
of the glass in a vacuum system, the liquids would be fairly light.

Yes/No?


***************

I was invited to the 25th Anniversary celebration of a local
manufacturer, Nordic Tug.
They had a few hundred people in attendance, from all across the
country, and almost all were Nordic Tug owners. Impressive turnout
during one of our rare snowy days and in the middle of January, but it
was like the gathering of an enthusiastic clan. I digress....

Spam

Nordic had a number of vessels on display in all stages of build and
fitout. Nordic had set up a demonstration of vacuum bag, or infusion
molding, in the laminate shop. We observed the molding of a cabin top.

The gelcoated mold gets one layer of vinylester resin prior to the
layup. This is to prevent "shrinkage" which could spoil the exterior
appearance of the finished component.
The glass mat and coring materials are then laid in place. For the
cabintop, Nordic uses three different weights of mat in the layup and I
would need to dig out my notes to be specific as to how many ounces
each fabric is rated. Many of the superstructural components in a
Nordic are cored, and a combination of serrated balsa as well as
synthetic coring materials are used in the buildup. All coring material
is designed to allow resin to flow throughout the layer, vastly
reducing any liklihood of a future separation between the FRP and the
core.

All syn coring materials are closed cell, the resin is NOT intended to
"saturate" the core other than the outer surfaces where hopefully the
glass skins will be properly bonded.

There is a difference in the layup process when preparing for infusion
molding. There are certain materials included that promote the flow of
resin throughout the layup and the entire process is conducted with an
emphasis upon assuring a maximum, thorough wet out. It isn't just the
same layup one would use with roller laminating and then vaccum
infused.

It can't be the "same" because normal cloth & mat won't flow the resins
freely enough, the problem which you unwittingly admit is that uniform
wetout is an issue & excess resin in glass is almost as damaging the
finished laminate as not enough resin
..

Once the layup is completed, a plastic sheet (vacuum bag) is placed
over the mold and some plastic tubed "plumbing" installed to remove the
air from the bag and create a vacuum. When the vaccum has been
estabished, the technician uses an electronic sensing device to check
the perimeter and the central vacuum connections for any leaks. After
the integrity of the vaccum is assured, the infusion begins.

All very technical hey Chuck???? they suck a vacuum & turn the tap on:-)


Nordic uses vinylester resin. The technician explained to us that a
number of factors are considered when adding the catalyst to the resin,
including ambient temperature, of course.
The resin itself was heated to a controlled temperature, (about
70-degrees), and then the catalyst was added. It would be hard for me
to compare the density of the infusion method resin with what the
density might have been in a roller lamination- but I have no doubt
that the mixture was calculated to be optimal for infusion molding. A
valve was opened to allow the mixture to flow into the mold, and during
the minutes required for the dark colored resin to spread throughout
the mold the technician was constantly monitoring the flow and spread
of the liquid.

Care to tell us how???? You can only see the glass on the inside of the
core, how much resin is being spread through the glass behind the core
is not visible; yes??? so tell us exactly "how" the "technician"
monitored the wetout behind the core??? This is your story Chuckles so
tell us the answer, you were there after all:-)

The greater atmospheric pressure outside the bag helped press and
squeeze the resin into the mat.

This is marketing BS which I think you just made up now???:-)

Before the resin is allowed to flow there is a vacuum, the plastic
sheet liner has already pressed the laminate(s) & the core against the
mould with the best part of 14.7 psi, an enormous pressure in these
premises.

The issue is that various parts of the glass layup & even the core are
more rigid than others (overlaps etc) that means those parts create a
hard dam wall between the plastic sheet & the mould, that interferes
with the even flow of the resin, again what the risk is that the resin
will flow into the easy bits which will get too much resin (much weaker
than a proper proportion of resin) or other parts will miss out on a
full dose of resin (see above just as bad)


Nordic has been infusion molding cabin parts for some time now, and has
become so confident in the process that beginning in March or April
they will begin vacuum bagging their hulls as well.
When you put a ten year hull warranty on a million dollar boat (some of
the larger models are now well over the 7-figure mark), you want to be
sure the technology is first rate.


I'd suggest it saves them enough that the occasional hiccup can be
amortised into the system. Does the 10 year hull warranty include
against any blistering???

There are some potential advantages, in my opinion. For instance, the
assurance of a "wet" layup.

No such assurance it there indeed the real problem is some area(s) may
be too wet, which is a big no no.

I suspect that in many of the traditional
"hand laminate" processes there are gaps at lunch times, shift changes,
etc where an underlying layer of glass is allowed to cure just a bit
more than desirable before the next layer is applied....possible source
for future delam.

That can happen but usually only with amateurs, proper laminators all
use unwaxed resins in the actual layup process, so going to lunch etc
isn't an issue, however you are now reverting to the "Yeah yeah well
Optimaxes blow up to" OMC Ficht defense:-)

Hand laid is these days seen as a plus in marketing, gee you used it
yourself in the spam article:-) notwithstanding the boat doesn't have a
hand laid hull:-)

There is less opportunity for dirt, dust, etc to find its way into the
laminate and that can additionally help reduce the liklihood of
eventual blistering. The use of chopped strand to build up thickness is
inconsistent with vacuum bag molding.

I don't understand this last bit???? Chopped strand mat i.e. in mat
form is either powder bound or emulsion bound otherwise it's not mat
it's chopped strand i.e. chopper gun, with mat it takes time to dissolve
the binders so in the infusion method it's not used; what BS story did
they give you??? Just like they have difficulties with any sort of cloth
so they use multi axial "mats" which are not "bound" but held together
usually with a light knit, trouble is "buildup" management is spotty at
best.

Opinons from OZ not withstanding, there is no reason to assume that
infusion molding will always be done poorly and traditional roller
laminating always done well. I'd be happy with a well built boat
constructed through either process.


It's a system that requires full on technical quality control which the
makers of $1mil. boats probably have, at least hope they have;-),
whereas a 23ftr???? who doesn't even want you to mention it's been used
in your spam???? which you of course comply with. Hmmm curiouser &
curiouser said Alice

K

This idiot has manufactured a story about his father being the biggest
OMC dealer on the NE coast of the US, needless to say Krause then says
that's where he learned all he obviously doesn't know about boats:-)

Here's just one of the lies from the "father" series, try to remember
he's talking $3000000 in 70s!! Honestly it's embarrassing that a grown
man would lie like this I guess that's the standard of union thugs ???


I sold off nearly $3,000,000 in new motors and boats, depressing
the new boat
industry in southern Connecticut for an entire season. Everything
was sold...every cotter pin, every quart of oil, 30 days after I started.
For near full-retail, too.

Our Ms. Smith wrote:

All syn coring materials are closed cell, the resin is NOT intended to

"saturate" the core other than the outer surfaces where hopefully the
glass skins will be properly bonded.

************

That is correct. The coring materials do have grooves, depressions,
kerfs, etc to increase the amount of the surface area exposed to resin.
If you take a hole saw to a cored layup and examine the plug, you will
see resin within the core layer (in the channels and passages where it
is supposed to be). Resin can flow laterally across the core.



Next, speaking about the various layers of mat used in infusion molding
compared to roller lamination, Ms. Smith observed:

It can't be the "same" because normal cloth & mat won't flow the
resins
freely enough, the problem which you unwittingly admit is that uniform
wetout is an issue & excess resin in glass is almost as damaging the
finished laminate as not enough resin

********************

So then it is your opinion that vacuum bag molding can *never* be done
correctly because it has to be differently from other methods? If
everybody thought that way, we wouldn't even have fiberglass boats- let
alone be arguing about laminate methods.

*

None of her points beyond here were expressed without personal insult,
so I'll not dignify any of them with a reply.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Our Ms. Smith wrote:

All syn coring materials are closed cell, the resin is NOT intended to

"saturate" the core other than the outer surfaces where hopefully the
glass skins will be properly bonded.

************

That is correct. The coring materials do have grooves, depressions,
kerfs, etc to increase the amount of the surface area exposed to resin.
If you take a hole saw to a cored layup and examine the plug, you will
see resin within the core layer (in the channels and passages where it
is supposed to be). Resin can flow laterally across the core.



Next, speaking about the various layers of mat used in infusion molding
compared to roller lamination, Ms. Smith observed:

It can't be the "same" because normal cloth & mat won't flow the
resins
freely enough, the problem which you unwittingly admit is that uniform
wetout is an issue & excess resin in glass is almost as damaging the
finished laminate as not enough resin

********************

So then it is your opinion that vacuum bag molding can *never* be done
correctly because it has to be differently from other methods? If
everybody thought that way, we wouldn't even have fiberglass boats- let
alone be arguing about laminate methods.

*

None of her points beyond here were expressed without personal insult,
so I'll not dignify any of them with a reply.


Postings with personal insults? Something you are getting quite good at
lately Chuck, sometimes reaching as low as one would expect from a 2nd
grader, certainly not from an adult as you say you are.

wrote:
Our Ms. Smith wrote:

All syn coring materials are closed cell, the resin is NOT intended to

"saturate" the core other than the outer surfaces where hopefully the
glass skins will be properly bonded.

************

That is correct. The coring materials do have grooves, depressions,
kerfs, etc to increase the amount of the surface area exposed to resin.
If you take a hole saw to a cored layup and examine the plug, you will
see resin within the core layer (in the channels and passages where it
is supposed to be). Resin can flow laterally across the core.

So again Chuckles you try to cover your BS?? The core is not intended
to be saturated with resin?? If it is knifed or shaped that is usually
so it can more easily take on the required compound shapes required &
has naught to do with trying to get resin "inside" the core itself.

Honestly Chuckles you were clearly more at home selling used cars than
coming here with this marketing BS, it won't fly:-)




Next, speaking about the various layers of mat used in infusion molding
compared to roller lamination, Ms. Smith observed:

It can't be the "same" because normal cloth & mat won't flow the
resins
freely enough, the problem which you unwittingly admit is that uniform
wetout is an issue & excess resin in glass is almost as damaging the
finished laminate as not enough resin

********************

So then it is your opinion that vacuum bag molding can *never* be done
correctly because it has to be differently from other methods?

No not at all, in the premises where you deliberately set about to
deceive the NG by claiming the boat you were spamming us with was a real
26 ftr with a "hand laid hull". I pointed out it isn't a real 26 ftr &
certainly not a "hand laid hull" but a vacuum infusion method I further
observed that such a method in that type of boat is "problematic".

You have confirmed same because you say another brand you spam here has
been "experimenting" over "years" before they are game to try it with a
hull.

Vacuum infusion certainly can & does work in serious QA situations
indeed lots of the jets that W is using to protect you, your family &
every single US citizen; uses the technology in at least some of it's
high tech components.

But nice try Chuckles, you'll need to try harder if you think you're
good enough to verbal me:-) Cheeky bugger though got to give ya that:-)

If
everybody thought that way, we wouldn't even have fiberglass boats- let
alone be arguing about laminate methods.

I was pinging you for deceptive marketing deceptive spamming!!! it
seems you now say I'm in error because you were spamming porkies???

What you need to do here chuckles is show that "this" boat has a hand
laid hull you can't???? because it hasn't indeed you have admitted it,
so an apology for either being so simple you just reprinted the Co
marketing line or worse you were part of a conscience deception but why???

Because you & the other marketers know it's at best a new method to
save them money in labour which is fine, however the ongoing risks to
owners are not reflected in the pricing, a bit like Ficht & E-tec???
using other peoples' money to experiment with???

Either way just say you're sorry.

*

None of her points beyond here were expressed without personal insult,
so I'll not dignify any of them with a reply.

Good please don't!!!

K

So the Krause lie of the day??? Here ya go:-)

So just getting back to the Hatt 43 lie:-) What happened was at least
2 of the NG people lived near where he "claimed" he did & said they'd
settle if he owned a Hatt 43 or not by simply calling around & taking a
look:-) After all his usual abuse & fained "privacy" concerns it was
starting to look like his lying hide was about to be hung out to dry:-)

This would be more than his ego could even contemplate, so in his
desperation not to be caught red handed (again:-)) he then lied again;
which despite it being totally unbelievable it allowed his damaged mind
to think he was still the big man his lies had created:-)

Doubt save to organise employment wrecking union strokes he's never
even been to Florida but he desperately needed to get away from the lie
mansion & the lie Hatt 43:-)




We had the Hatteras for two years. Last year, out of the cold
clear, a broker approached me with an offer to buy. Our continued Florida
lifestyle was somewhat up in the air, because the two breadwinners
hereabouts were about to be offered long-term but temporary assignments
they could not refuse in the Washington, D.C., area. So, after being
romanced a little, we sold the Hatt for almost precisely what we
paid for it. Not bad, after two full years of use. And I mean full
years. So, we didn't "make" any money off the Hatt, but we didn't lose any,
either.
The proceeds were prudently invested.

wrote:
Hey Smith.......

Hey Gould..........???

Your post was #35 in this thread.

You can count??? don't sell yourself short chuckles there's hope for
you yet;-)


The first 34 were either discussing the merits of the boat, or similar
boats, and were civilized boating related exchanges. That's almost a
recent record for our sorry NG. Even Harry stayed on topic. You then
wade in and want to make a personal issue out of things.

Yep sad isn't it??? Not one person even looked at the merits, I can see
how you magazine dreamers get away with it, nobody but nobody can be
bothered or has the wherewithal to see past your obvious marketing BS.

Ever see one of these boats?

Na; but an ugly "little" tacker isn't it???

Know a damn thing about their
construction except what you're guesstimating?

Well don't be fooled by "my" timid nature Chucky, I did check & yes the
builders very quietly admit it's indeed a vacuum infusion built hull as
you well know!!! & seeing you tried & continue to try to hide the fact
I'm guessing you also know it's a sus method at this stage??? if not
then have a go at standing up for it I'll read that with interest.

Why did you feel
compelled to try and take a boating related thread into the crapper?

I didn't I merely took your spam & reviewed it on the technical merits,
that's exactly what a boating NG is supposed to do!!! or have you been
running OT political threads & pure spam so long you've forgotten???


Face it, the only discussions you are comfortable participating in are
those where you are attacking somebody. That's the extent of your
actual expertise.

Well thanks Chuckles I am good at it I confess:-) but also I give full
reasons why I say what I say & yes you & the brain dead dealers call me
names, sad really if I'm so wrong why don't you try to argue the issue,
i.e.this is NOT a hand laid hull it's vacuum infusion; a controversial
method used to mostly save labour costs by the builder at the expense of
a potentially crook hull. I've made all the technical points even
explained how it's done for those who don't know so have a go at me on
the merits please.

While you're at it apologise for the deceptive marketing will ya.


There are a number of specific benefits to the infusion method,
properly done. There are some weaknesses in roller lamination when
improperly done. I'd go through them with you but what would be the
point? You don't give a schlitz about vacuum infusion vs. roller
lamination. You merely seek a vehicle to make negative personal
remarks.

So is that an admission that this hull is NOT hand laid???? is it an
admission that the vacuum infusion method is "problematic" just as I
suggested??? Is that an admission you knew all along this boat was not
hand laid but vacuum infusion & deliberately didn't tell???


You're so insecure in your "knowledge" that you cannot compare or
contrast your opinions with those of others without also disparaging
the motives of the people holding opinions diverse from your own.

How can I compare?? you come along as the in the know boat tester &
claim it's a hand laid hull, it's bona fide 26ftr & various other bits
of BS. Before I can compare the merits we need to sort out exactly what
we have, so far you've admitted it's not hand laid but vacuum infusion,
then tried again to run away by saying I might be rude to you??? well
you can count on it, manners is not starting OT threads & not spamming a
no spam NG.


When was the last time you started a boating related thread, or made a
"positive" remark about anybody or any thing?

I rarely start a thread & have never been a thread starter, I oft
answer questions, so long as it's not you, the liar or a dealer I seem
to get on OK, even with those that don't particularly like me, at least
they begrudgingly accept I have a good go at being helpful.

("I'm positive Gould is a
socialist spammer, Krause is a lying windbag," etc, doesn't count). You
lay about in the shadows, saying nothing until its time once again to
feed your appetite for insult and mayhem. You then descend on your
sticky little web, with all eight legs flaily wildly, and begin
injecting poison into all you survey.

Well glad I'm not being abusive:-) Gould you posted spam nothing less
you also tried to significantly mislead the NG as to the size &
construction of this boat.

This isn't about my views on various construction methods it's about
yet another example of you being caught posting misleading marketing
spam, not unlike BS Bill does & always has.

Why not make a positive contribution for a change? Do you lack the
ability, or merely the desire?

I did!!!! I pointed out that this boat is more like a 23 ftr it's not
hand laid it uses a controversial new method (in this type of boat)
called vacuum infusion & I also even explained in detail how it's
done!!! You want more??? well hooly dooly what else can I tell ya, apart
from you're "articles" are regularly shown to be nothing more than a
rehashing of the marketers spruik.

Hmmm I'm tired but now need to sort out Krause's lie of the day,
thinking I'll have to start yours also:-)



K

This lying idiot has manufactured a story about his father being the
biggest OMC dealer on the US NE coast, needless to say Krause then says
that's where he learned all he obviously doesn't know about boats:-)

Here's just one of the lies from the "father" series, try to remember
he's talking $3000000 in the 70s!! Honestly it's embarrassing that a
grown man would lie like this I guess that's the standard of union thugs ???


I sold off nearly $3,000,000 in new motors and boats, depressing
the new boat
industry in southern Connecticut for an entire season. Everything
was sold...every cotter pin, every quart of oil, 30 days after I started.
For near full-retail, too.