BoatBanter.com - View Single Post - 260 Defiance, not that dissimilar to a Parker

wrote:

Time for a spam review???? At least he marks the endless political
threads he starts with OT; wonder if we can get 'im to mark this crap as
OS for Only Spam???

Affordable Family Fun and Fishing!

Palmer Marine, of Port Orchard, Washington, has been building boats for
over 30 years.
Most Pacific NW'ers have probably noticed their brand name
"Tiderunner" on a line of durable, trailerable, fishing boats.
Palmer Marine recently expanded its product selection to include some
enclosed cabin boats that are still ideal for fishing, but are also
large enough to be used by a small family for weekend and vacation
expeditions. We recently enjoyed an opportunity to test Palmer
Marine's 260 Defiance. The vessel was in stock at a local dealership,
Signal Yacht Sales at Kitsap Marina in Port Orchard.

But do we still get the free steak knives if we ring in the next 10
minutes that's the real question:-)

The 260 Defiance appears to be very well built.

Hmmm coming from a used car salesman then used boar salesman I guess it
might "appear" as anything really. Time I suspect will prove otherwise
but hey read below & see how "appearances" can be a lottery:-)

There is absolutely no
structural wood in the hull or decks. Stringers, transoms, bulkheads,
and other locations constantly on the "watch list" when wood has
been used as a template or foundation for fiberglass should be trouble
free for the life of a 260 Defiance.

I suppose some modern boats still use wood but not many, so I guess you
can say hey they use a really cheap manufacturing method & wood in these
premises would cost them more??? But we're all agreed then no wood is
good news??? errr & the steak knives??? no woody handles I suppose??

The hand-laid hull is vacuum bag
molded with 100% vinylester laminate to assure a void-free wet out and
make blistering extremely unlikely.

See this is why these magazine articles are such BS, they're mostly
written as this one seems to be by the white shoe brigade who have
little boating experience & nil to none real boat design nor build
experience. Essentially they just parrot the marketing line they're given.

Seeing it's very likely if not for sure the writer does know how this
hull is made but because of the issues has chosen not to tell us, it
falls to me (again:-)) to have a go at explaining the hows, whys,
wherefores & problems.

The hull is "probably" NOT hand laid in the traditional meaning of the
words in the boat building industry, although it seems the builder does
know exactly what they mean because their web site is quick to tell you
the deck is "hand laid", which who knows??? hey it probably is. The
accepted meaning of that description is that it's not a foam sandwich
construction & further the glass AND resins are applied into the mould
by hand, as each layer is put in, it is then wetted out with catalysed
resin & has all the air "hand" rolled out which also helps to fully bed
down each of the layers into each other for good lamination strength.
chopped strand mat, woven, csm, wvn etc etc etc .

This is probably a foam cored boat including a foam core below the
waterline!!! This type of construction is not well thought of these days
& if moisture gets into the foam core below the waterline, you'll be
wishing there were some wood in the hull:-)

Further what our esteemed writer fails to mention is that the hull is
probably built using the "vacuum infusion" method which is potentially
very problematic for even the large flattish surfaces it was originally
invented for; much less this type of application. Like most spruikers of
course our writer has most likely already been told this is a negative
so fails to mention it (besides it can't possibly work with the already
made "hand laid hull" claim:-)), however as mentioned our writer goes
further & "pretends" it's a "hand laid" hull:-) What a BS'er. Is this a
socialist thing?? don't tell them the actual facts because hey buyers
might make their own minds up???

The hull is probably built using this method but we'll never really
know for sure because our writer only repeats the good news to help make
more sales, of course in some years time when you have huge problems
with the hull???? it's the Ficht/VRO soon to be E-Tec defense, well
golly gee never seen that before, this is a one off:-)

So here's how we "think" this hull is probably made & "if" correct then
it's suggested all be very very careful this is a problematic but also
very very cheap for the builder:-) method;
(i) Spray release agent (pva) into the mould then
(ii) Spray the gel coat in then
(iii) hand lay a thin tie layer of glass (at least bloody hope they
do:-)) then
(iv) by hand place "all" the elements of the layup in the mould (they
call it dry stacking) say a couple of layers of dry glass, the foam
core, then a few more layers of dry glass, then
(v) tape a sheet of oversized plastic over the whole thing so it's air
tight around the mould top then
(vi) vacuum the air out from under the plastic sheet then
(vii) Once all the dry ingredients are pressed against the mould turn a
tap on & allow already catalysed resin to flow, vacuum pulled in, so it
can seep up through the glass etc till it comes out the top.

The problems are;
(i) The dry stack might move or get displaced with all the placing of
other materials, foam core etc.
(ii) You can only use certain types of "open" glasses, i.e. normal
woven glass (very strong) doesn't allow the resin to flow quickly
enough, normal powder or emulsion bound CSM doesn't have time to fully
dissolve the binders, so they use multi axial mats (low strength) with a
knit over them to hopefully hold them all together till the resin
arrives, but in the mean time people are all over it!!!
(iii) The resins need to be very low viscosity (low strength) again so
they'll "flow" & hopefully not leave any dry spots on the laminate.
(iv) The operation has to be finished before the resin starts to gel
(15mins) so unlike a real hand laid hull, there is no real quality
control at all over the layup/impregnation process. It's all suck it &
not be able to see.
(v) There is a risk the resin impregnation will not be at a uniform
rate throughout, some areas might be overly wet (very low strength)
other areas might have low resin content (delamination risk particularly
as it's not hand rolled, osmosis &/or water into core.
(vi) once the process is commenced there is no way to know it's worked
well or disastrously, not till maybe in a few years time when the boat
delaminates or the core below the waterline is shown to be wet, but by
then of course:-)

The benefits:
(i) None to the boat owner just the inherent risks that it all went well.
(ii) Save the boat builder almost all the labour in building the hull,
no rolling none of that.
(iii) Saves the builder materials because they only allow a known
amount to sucked through the dry stack, the problem being of course that
some areas might be over wet & others almost or worse dry.
(iv) Allows the builder to cheaply comply with pollution & work safety
requirements.
(v) Reduces the builders labour costs dramatically

Dimensions and General Hull Design:

The Defiance 260 is 25'10" LOA. Overall beam is 8'6", with beam
at the waterline 7'6". Draft is approximately 18",

I mean just how much BS is a koala supposed to silently bear???? This
is supposed to be an article telling us actual boaters about this boat
yes??? it doesn't mention it's hardly fair to bill it as a 26ftr:-) It's
waterline length is a smidgion over 20ft!!! & that includes the
"creative" transom shape so the boat is more like a 23 ftr with an over
long but technically "built in" bow sprit!!! Our writer is either a
total novice or just part of the marketing spruik.

Come on!!!!

I'll read & review the rest once I get over this, I'm sorry is this the
standard magazine article you now accept as OK??? If so good on ya but
not me this is just advertising in a no spam NG but given every other OT
political thing the writer does here I suppose it's the standard
expected. I'll have a look at the rest later, I'm going boating for a
nice relaxing overnight trip.

K

The Krause lie of they day I hear you asking for??? OK it's not a
repeat; not till my new script starts appending them that is:-)

But I thought you should know something funny about this Krause lie
list, in the early days he went on & on & on about his Hatt 43 & yes
lots of people called him BS till he finally posted a pic of his Hatt 43.

Needless to say this lying grub will stop at nothing in his lame
attempts to be believed as a boater just as he did in the jetski NGs.

Oops so sorry rambling again:-) anyway the really funny bit??? ages
later someone finds the same pic on a Hatt web site!!! yes truly this
lying idiot lifted a pic of a Hatt 43 from a web site then posted it as
his own boat!!!:-)

But there's more!!! get his answer it's almost as funny as him getting
caught red handed, he claimed it was a "sister ship" to his!!! so that's
why he posted the pic as his own boat!!!

Here are some:

Hatteras 43' sportfish
Swan 41' racing/cruising sloop
Morgan 33
O'Day 30
Cruisers, Inc., Mackinac 22
Century Coronado
Bill Luders 16, as sweet a sailboat as ever caught a breeze.
Century 19' wood lapstrake with side wheel steering
Cruisers, Inc. 18' and 16' wood lapstrakes
Wolverines. Molded plywood. Gorgeous. Several. 14,15,17 footers
with various
Evinrudes
Lighting class sailboat
Botved Coronet with twin 50 hp Evinrudes. Interesting boat.
Aristocraft (a piece of junk...13', fast, held together with spit)
Alcort Sunfish
Ancarrow Marine Aquiflyer. 22' footer with two Caddy Crusaders.
Guaranteed 60 mph. In the late 1950's.
Skimmar brand skiff
Arkansas Traveler fiberglass bowrider (I think it was a bowrider)
Dyer Dhow
Su-Mark round bilge runabout, fiberglass
Penn Yan runabouts. Wood.
Old Town wood and canvas canoe
Old Town sailing canoe...different than above canoe

I own the following boats:

a 36' "lobster" style boat
a 19' center console fishing boat
an 11' inflatable dinghy
1/2 of a canoe

Those are the types of boats I currently own. I'm also in the market for
some interesting kind of lightweight flatbottomed skiff, similar to the
old Skimmar, for the "new" 51-year-old 10 hp outboard I recently bought.

One of the boats is kept on dry land within a half mile of Chesapeake
Bay. One is kept at a private covered boat dock in a little creek off
Chesapeake Bay. One is kept in the backyard of a friend who lives much
closer to the Shenandoah River than I do. And one is kept next to the
36-footer."

and
displacement is listed at 5500 pounds. The hull is rated for up to 400
HP. Deadrise is 22-degrees, and fuel capacity is listed at 135 gallons.
(Our test boat was configured for only 110 gallons, as it was equipped
with a third fish hold in lieu of an auxiliary fuel tank).

The deep-v hull incorporates some features that Palmer calls
"Stable-Trak" design. A well-flared bow and prominent strakes at
the chine permit the 260 Defiance to divert spray away from the decks
when running on plane, or to handle rough water with greater confidence
when slowed to displacement speeds.

Palmer Marine builds the 260 Defiance with a short but workable
foredeck. The foredeck and sidedecks are nonskid, with several inch
bulwarks and the cabin superstructure creating a very well defined and
secure "track" to use when walking forward. The track appears wide
enough for a rubber boot. There is a sturdy, stainless perimeter rail
system and handholds on the cabin top, but Palmer wisely anticipated
that many boaters going forward on the 260 Defiance would have both
hands busy with a fishing rod. The deep foot track in the deck promotes
hands free confidence. The side decks are designed to drain through the
bulwarks, rather than channel water from the foredeck to the cockpit.
An anchor pulpit is standard on the 260 Defiance, with a rode locker
immediately aft.

Our test boat was equipped with an optional stainless radar arch,
equipped with two forward facing lamps that might prove handy if
docking or loading aboard a trailer after dark.

Families planning to fish, or searching for a good space to erect a
folding table and a couple of chairs when relaxing at an island
anchorage next summer will appreciate the roomy cockpit of the 260
Defiance. The cockpit is self-bailing, with 27" bulwarks. Fish rods
can be stowed in dedicated recesses to both port and starboard, with
flushable fish boxes under nonskid cockpit hatches. The bilge pump, the
batteries, the hydraulic steering, and many other systems are
serviceable through an access door in the transom of the cockpit. A
series of cockpit courtesy lights, just above deck level, are standard
equipment and will be extremely convenient during predawn or evening
hours.

Our test boat was equipped with an aft cabin bulkhead, creating a cabin
that can be truly described as fully enclosed. The cabin door and the
sliding cabin side windows are aluminum framed and fitted with tempered
glass.

Interior Amenities:

For a 26-foot boat with a large cockpit, the 260 Defiance does a
commendable job of providing a decent cabin area. Headroom in the main
cabin is several inches over six feet.
A dinette, (with lockers below the seats) is located to port, and can
be converted to a single berth by lowering the tabletop and inserting
an additional cushion. The helm is to starboard, with cup or beverage
holders alongside and a small 12-volt refrigerator immediately below
the seat. A galley sink with potable water pump is just aft of the helm
seat, and our test boat had a handy Wallas stove to perform both
cooking and cabin heating chores.

Three people could sit comfortably in the cabin underway, with
additional passengers siting on the V-berths under the foredeck. The
V-berth area on our test boat had a folding door to create privacy.
Three overhead lights with red-bulb option for enhanced night vision
should provide very satisfactory illumination after dark. Each of the
individual forward cabin windows has a wiper, as well as a separate fan
for defrosting and defogging.

While many similar boats would offer a portable marine toilet as an
option, our 260 Defiance test boat featured a fully plumbed marine
head, with a pushbutton macerating flush system and a holding tank. The
marine toilet is concealed under the removable center cushion in the
V-berth.

The cabin fixtures are teak, and the durable fabric headliner is
secured with a series of teak battens.

There would seem to be enough cabin comforts to provide a basic weekend
cruising platform for a couple, with certainly one adult guest or a
couple of kids as well.

Observations underway:

Orrin Nelson, General Manager of Kitsap Marina, was kind enough to
allow us to use the 260 Defiance and accompanied us during our trial
run. Conditions were calm, and our test area was the Port Orchard
waterway. Speed was determined with a handheld Magellan GPS, and fuel
consumption by the vessel's optional Flo-Scan meter.

Buyers can specify a variety of outboard motors for the 260 Defiance.
Our test boat was equipped with a 2005, 250 HP Suzuki four-stroke
outboard. Orrin turned the key, and the Suzuki started instantly.

We noted an impression, in the cabin, that the boat seems to sit in the
water ever so slightly down at the bow. This is most likely the result
of an optical illusion created by the forward slope of the trunk
cabintop over the V-berth, as the boat appears to sit well on its lines
when viewed from a distance. If there were any bow down tendency, it
would be eliminated once the boat gets underway, and we finally decided
on optical illusion as the most likely explanation.

One of the advantages of outboard power can be a quieter cabin
environment. The Suzuki four-stroke is a smooth and quiet engine, and
placing it well away from the cabin results in far less noise than we
would have experienced with most inboard or I/O applications.

We motored away from the marina dock, picked an unobstructed portion of
the waterway, and throttled up to 2500 rpm. Visibility over the bow
remained excellent at all speeds during out trial, even when
accelerating from dead slow or a standing start. At 2500, we were
making 8.4 kts and burning 4.5 gph.

At 3500 rpm, we noted that the exaggerated chine was functioning very
well, with spray emerging only in the last third of the hull length,
aft of the bulkhead door. We were burning 7.9 gph, to make 15.5 kts.

We improved fuel efficiency when we reached 4500 rpm, with 12.1 gph
producing a speed of 26.7 kts.

Bringing the engine up to wide-open throttle, (6000 rpm), we consumed
fuel at the rate of 21 gph and the GPS read 36.4 kts.

The 260 Defiance proved to be nimble as we maneuvered at speed. The
boat leans just slightly in a turn, but the Stable-Trak chine engages
the surface to define the outermost extreme of the tendency at a
moderate and reassuring angle. Conditions were almost dead calm, so the
only seas we encountered were our own wake, and the 260 Defiance
produces only a small wake at any sort of cruising speeds. Slowing down
to come off plane, we turned into the larger wake and negotiated it
with a solid "thump" under the hull that we heard far more clearly
than we felt. One can easily imagine trusting this hull in any
conditions under which a sane Pacific NW boater would get underway, or
even worse conditions that could arise midway through a passage.

We slowed to idle speed, and noted that even with the 250HP Suzuki the
260 Defiance could be reduced to salmon trolling speed. The GPS read
1.9 kts.

"It would make sense to mount a trolling motor if a boater wanted to
do a lot of fishing," said Orrin. "Even though we can slow down
enough, most people would be happier putting hours on a smaller and
less expensive motor, rather than a $16,000 outboard."

Conclusions:

Palmer Marine's 260 Defiance should prove an excellent choice for
anyone interested in a trailerable fishing boat that is realistically
capable of doubling as an overnight or short vacation cruiser. With a
long list of options, our test boat had a "boat show" price of
about $83,000, including the 250-horse Suzuki and a galvanized trailer.
Cabin accommodations are basic and functional rather than elaborate or
extravagant, but for many outdoor-oriented NW'ers, boating is often
more about having fun on the water rather than lounging around in an
opulent interior. The five-figure price on the 260 Defiance puts it
within realistic reach of a greater number of ordinary income boating
families, and getting more people onto the water will be among the many
things for which Palmer Marine's flagship 26-footer will be
commended.

For additional information on the Palmer Marine 260 Defiance, please
call Signal Yacht Sales at Kitsap Marina: 360-874-0504