On 5 Feb 2005 06:40:40 -0800, wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

There are a number of specific benefits to the infusion method,
properly done. There are some weaknesses in roller lamination when
improperly done. I'd go through them with you but what would be the
point? You don't give a schlitz about vacuum infusion vs. roller
lamination. You merely seek a vehicle to make negative personal
remarks.

Speaking of the difference, I've often wondered if they use different
resins in vacuum molds. In the roller method, the epoxies are fairly
stiff (usually due to the "induction" time in which the catalyst acts
on the resin), but it would seem to me to achieve proper penetration
of the glass in a vacuum system, the liquids would be fairly light.

Yes/No?

Also, I would thank you not to use the name Schlitz in vain - my
maternal Grandfather was Schlitz's Master Brewer for almost 30 years.

Harrumph!! :)

Later,

Tom

Speaking of the difference, I've often wondered if they use different
resins in vacuum molds. In the roller method, the epoxies are fairly
stiff (usually due to the "induction" time in which the catalyst acts
on the resin), but it would seem to me to achieve proper penetration
of the glass in a vacuum system, the liquids would be fairly light.

Yes/No?


***************

I was invited to the 25th Anniversary celebration of a local
manufacturer, Nordic Tug.
They had a few hundred people in attendance, from all across the
country, and almost all were Nordic Tug owners. Impressive turnout
during one of our rare snowy days and in the middle of January, but it
was like the gathering of an enthusiastic clan. I digress....

Nordic had a number of vessels on display in all stages of build and
fitout. Nordic had set up a demonstration of vacuum bag, or infusion
molding, in the laminate shop. We observed the molding of a cabin top.

The gelcoated mold gets one layer of vinylester resin prior to the
layup. This is to prevent "shrinkage" which could spoil the exterior
appearance of the finished component.
The glass mat and coring materials are then laid in place. For the
cabintop, Nordic uses three different weights of mat in the layup and I
would need to dig out my notes to be specific as to how many ounces
each fabric is rated. Many of the superstructural components in a
Nordic are cored, and a combination of serrated balsa as well as
synthetic coring materials are used in the buildup. All coring material
is designed to allow resin to flow throughout the layer, vastly
reducing any liklihood of a future separation between the FRP and the
core.

There is a difference in the layup process when preparing for infusion
molding. There are certain materials included that promote the flow of
resin throughout the layup and the entire process is conducted with an
emphasis upon assuring a maximum, thorough wet out. It isn't just the
same layup one would use with roller laminating and then vaccum
infused.

Once the layup is completed, a plastic sheet (vacuum bag) is placed
over the mold and some plastic tubed "plumbing" installed to remove the
air from the bag and create a vacuum. When the vaccum has been
estabished, the technician uses an electronic sensing device to check
the perimeter and the central vacuum connections for any leaks. After
the integrity of the vaccum is assured, the infusion begins.

Nordic uses vinylester resin. The technician explained to us that a
number of factors are considered when adding the catalyst to the resin,
including ambient temperature, of course.
The resin itself was heated to a controlled temperature, (about
70-degrees), and then the catalyst was added. It would be hard for me
to compare the density of the infusion method resin with what the
density might have been in a roller lamination- but I have no doubt
that the mixture was calculated to be optimal for infusion molding. A
valve was opened to allow the mixture to flow into the mold, and during
the minutes required for the dark colored resin to spread throughout
the mold the technician was constantly monitoring the flow and spread
of the liquid.
The greater atmospheric pressure outside the bag helped press and
squeeze the resin into the mat.

Nordic has been infusion molding cabin parts for some time now, and has
become so confident in the process that beginning in March or April
they will begin vacuum bagging their hulls as well.
When you put a ten year hull warranty on a million dollar boat (some of
the larger models are now well over the 7-figure mark), you want to be
sure the technology is first rate.

There are some potential advantages, in my opinion. For instance, the
assurance of a "wet" layup. I suspect that in many of the traditional
"hand laminate" processes there are gaps at lunch times, shift changes,
etc where an underlying layer of glass is allowed to cure just a bit
more than desirable before the next layer is applied....possible source
for future delam.
There is less opportunity for dirt, dust, etc to find its way into the
laminate and that can additionally help reduce the liklihood of
eventual blistering. The use of chopped strand to build up thickness is
inconsistent with vacuum bag molding.

Opinons from OZ not withstanding, there is no reason to assume that
infusion molding will always be done poorly and traditional roller
laminating always done well. I'd be happy with a well built boat
constructed through either process.

On 5 Feb 2005 14:00:42 -0800, wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

There are some potential advantages, in my opinion. For instance, the
assurance of a "wet" layup. I suspect that in many of the traditional
"hand laminate" processes there are gaps at lunch times, shift changes,
etc where an underlying layer of glass is allowed to cure just a bit
more than desirable before the next layer is applied....possible source
for future delam.
There is less opportunity for dirt, dust, etc to find its way into the
laminate and that can additionally help reduce the liklihood of
eventual blistering. The use of chopped strand to build up thickness is
inconsistent with vacuum bag molding.

Interesting write up - thanks.

Curious that you should mention roller layup and things like breaks
and lunch. My wife and I took a tour of the Blue Fin facility over in
Bristol, RI this past summer and I asked that very question.
Delamination is of particular interest to me because I've had that
happen on a rather expensive boat.

The owners told me that they have a rotating schedule for the floor
workers which prevents that from happening. Most hulls are produced
fairly complete in one shift.

The chopped mat system they use at Blue Fin was interesting - I hadn't
seen one quite like it. They used a much finer material that I'd seen
previously and a special resin mix - looked almost like water.

In fact the whole damn tour was pretty interesting.

Great birthday present. :)

Later,

Tom

wrote:
Speaking of the difference, I've often wondered if they use different
resins in vacuum molds. In the roller method, the epoxies are fairly
stiff (usually due to the "induction" time in which the catalyst acts
on the resin), but it would seem to me to achieve proper penetration
of the glass in a vacuum system, the liquids would be fairly light.

Yes/No?


***************

I was invited to the 25th Anniversary celebration of a local
manufacturer, Nordic Tug.
They had a few hundred people in attendance, from all across the
country, and almost all were Nordic Tug owners. Impressive turnout
during one of our rare snowy days and in the middle of January, but it
was like the gathering of an enthusiastic clan. I digress....

Spam

Nordic had a number of vessels on display in all stages of build and
fitout. Nordic had set up a demonstration of vacuum bag, or infusion
molding, in the laminate shop. We observed the molding of a cabin top.

The gelcoated mold gets one layer of vinylester resin prior to the
layup. This is to prevent "shrinkage" which could spoil the exterior
appearance of the finished component.
The glass mat and coring materials are then laid in place. For the
cabintop, Nordic uses three different weights of mat in the layup and I
would need to dig out my notes to be specific as to how many ounces
each fabric is rated. Many of the superstructural components in a
Nordic are cored, and a combination of serrated balsa as well as
synthetic coring materials are used in the buildup. All coring material
is designed to allow resin to flow throughout the layer, vastly
reducing any liklihood of a future separation between the FRP and the
core.

All syn coring materials are closed cell, the resin is NOT intended to
"saturate" the core other than the outer surfaces where hopefully the
glass skins will be properly bonded.

There is a difference in the layup process when preparing for infusion
molding. There are certain materials included that promote the flow of
resin throughout the layup and the entire process is conducted with an
emphasis upon assuring a maximum, thorough wet out. It isn't just the
same layup one would use with roller laminating and then vaccum
infused.

It can't be the "same" because normal cloth & mat won't flow the resins
freely enough, the problem which you unwittingly admit is that uniform
wetout is an issue & excess resin in glass is almost as damaging the
finished laminate as not enough resin
..

Once the layup is completed, a plastic sheet (vacuum bag) is placed
over the mold and some plastic tubed "plumbing" installed to remove the
air from the bag and create a vacuum. When the vaccum has been
estabished, the technician uses an electronic sensing device to check
the perimeter and the central vacuum connections for any leaks. After
the integrity of the vaccum is assured, the infusion begins.

All very technical hey Chuck???? they suck a vacuum & turn the tap on:-)


Nordic uses vinylester resin. The technician explained to us that a
number of factors are considered when adding the catalyst to the resin,
including ambient temperature, of course.
The resin itself was heated to a controlled temperature, (about
70-degrees), and then the catalyst was added. It would be hard for me
to compare the density of the infusion method resin with what the
density might have been in a roller lamination- but I have no doubt
that the mixture was calculated to be optimal for infusion molding. A
valve was opened to allow the mixture to flow into the mold, and during
the minutes required for the dark colored resin to spread throughout
the mold the technician was constantly monitoring the flow and spread
of the liquid.

Care to tell us how???? You can only see the glass on the inside of the
core, how much resin is being spread through the glass behind the core
is not visible; yes??? so tell us exactly "how" the "technician"
monitored the wetout behind the core??? This is your story Chuckles so
tell us the answer, you were there after all:-)

The greater atmospheric pressure outside the bag helped press and
squeeze the resin into the mat.

This is marketing BS which I think you just made up now???:-)

Before the resin is allowed to flow there is a vacuum, the plastic
sheet liner has already pressed the laminate(s) & the core against the
mould with the best part of 14.7 psi, an enormous pressure in these
premises.

The issue is that various parts of the glass layup & even the core are
more rigid than others (overlaps etc) that means those parts create a
hard dam wall between the plastic sheet & the mould, that interferes
with the even flow of the resin, again what the risk is that the resin
will flow into the easy bits which will get too much resin (much weaker
than a proper proportion of resin) or other parts will miss out on a
full dose of resin (see above just as bad)


Nordic has been infusion molding cabin parts for some time now, and has
become so confident in the process that beginning in March or April
they will begin vacuum bagging their hulls as well.
When you put a ten year hull warranty on a million dollar boat (some of
the larger models are now well over the 7-figure mark), you want to be
sure the technology is first rate.


I'd suggest it saves them enough that the occasional hiccup can be
amortised into the system. Does the 10 year hull warranty include
against any blistering???

There are some potential advantages, in my opinion. For instance, the
assurance of a "wet" layup.

No such assurance it there indeed the real problem is some area(s) may
be too wet, which is a big no no.

I suspect that in many of the traditional
"hand laminate" processes there are gaps at lunch times, shift changes,
etc where an underlying layer of glass is allowed to cure just a bit
more than desirable before the next layer is applied....possible source
for future delam.

That can happen but usually only with amateurs, proper laminators all
use unwaxed resins in the actual layup process, so going to lunch etc
isn't an issue, however you are now reverting to the "Yeah yeah well
Optimaxes blow up to" OMC Ficht defense:-)

Hand laid is these days seen as a plus in marketing, gee you used it
yourself in the spam article:-) notwithstanding the boat doesn't have a
hand laid hull:-)

There is less opportunity for dirt, dust, etc to find its way into the
laminate and that can additionally help reduce the liklihood of
eventual blistering. The use of chopped strand to build up thickness is
inconsistent with vacuum bag molding.

I don't understand this last bit???? Chopped strand mat i.e. in mat
form is either powder bound or emulsion bound otherwise it's not mat
it's chopped strand i.e. chopper gun, with mat it takes time to dissolve
the binders so in the infusion method it's not used; what BS story did
they give you??? Just like they have difficulties with any sort of cloth
so they use multi axial "mats" which are not "bound" but held together
usually with a light knit, trouble is "buildup" management is spotty at
best.

Opinons from OZ not withstanding, there is no reason to assume that
infusion molding will always be done poorly and traditional roller
laminating always done well. I'd be happy with a well built boat
constructed through either process.


It's a system that requires full on technical quality control which the
makers of $1mil. boats probably have, at least hope they have;-),
whereas a 23ftr???? who doesn't even want you to mention it's been used
in your spam???? which you of course comply with. Hmmm curiouser &
curiouser said Alice

K

This idiot has manufactured a story about his father being the biggest
OMC dealer on the NE coast of the US, needless to say Krause then says
that's where he learned all he obviously doesn't know about boats:-)

Here's just one of the lies from the "father" series, try to remember
he's talking $3000000 in 70s!! Honestly it's embarrassing that a grown
man would lie like this I guess that's the standard of union thugs ???


I sold off nearly $3,000,000 in new motors and boats, depressing
the new boat
industry in southern Connecticut for an entire season. Everything
was sold...every cotter pin, every quart of oil, 30 days after I started.
For near full-retail, too.

wrote:
Hey Smith.......

Hey Gould..........???

Your post was #35 in this thread.

You can count??? don't sell yourself short chuckles there's hope for
you yet;-)


The first 34 were either discussing the merits of the boat, or similar
boats, and were civilized boating related exchanges. That's almost a
recent record for our sorry NG. Even Harry stayed on topic. You then
wade in and want to make a personal issue out of things.

Yep sad isn't it??? Not one person even looked at the merits, I can see
how you magazine dreamers get away with it, nobody but nobody can be
bothered or has the wherewithal to see past your obvious marketing BS.

Ever see one of these boats?

Na; but an ugly "little" tacker isn't it???

Know a damn thing about their
construction except what you're guesstimating?

Well don't be fooled by "my" timid nature Chucky, I did check & yes the
builders very quietly admit it's indeed a vacuum infusion built hull as
you well know!!! & seeing you tried & continue to try to hide the fact
I'm guessing you also know it's a sus method at this stage??? if not
then have a go at standing up for it I'll read that with interest.

Why did you feel
compelled to try and take a boating related thread into the crapper?

I didn't I merely took your spam & reviewed it on the technical merits,
that's exactly what a boating NG is supposed to do!!! or have you been
running OT political threads & pure spam so long you've forgotten???


Face it, the only discussions you are comfortable participating in are
those where you are attacking somebody. That's the extent of your
actual expertise.

Well thanks Chuckles I am good at it I confess:-) but also I give full
reasons why I say what I say & yes you & the brain dead dealers call me
names, sad really if I'm so wrong why don't you try to argue the issue,
i.e.this is NOT a hand laid hull it's vacuum infusion; a controversial
method used to mostly save labour costs by the builder at the expense of
a potentially crook hull. I've made all the technical points even
explained how it's done for those who don't know so have a go at me on
the merits please.

While you're at it apologise for the deceptive marketing will ya.


There are a number of specific benefits to the infusion method,
properly done. There are some weaknesses in roller lamination when
improperly done. I'd go through them with you but what would be the
point? You don't give a schlitz about vacuum infusion vs. roller
lamination. You merely seek a vehicle to make negative personal
remarks.

So is that an admission that this hull is NOT hand laid???? is it an
admission that the vacuum infusion method is "problematic" just as I
suggested??? Is that an admission you knew all along this boat was not
hand laid but vacuum infusion & deliberately didn't tell???


You're so insecure in your "knowledge" that you cannot compare or
contrast your opinions with those of others without also disparaging
the motives of the people holding opinions diverse from your own.

How can I compare?? you come along as the in the know boat tester &
claim it's a hand laid hull, it's bona fide 26ftr & various other bits
of BS. Before I can compare the merits we need to sort out exactly what
we have, so far you've admitted it's not hand laid but vacuum infusion,
then tried again to run away by saying I might be rude to you??? well
you can count on it, manners is not starting OT threads & not spamming a
no spam NG.


When was the last time you started a boating related thread, or made a
"positive" remark about anybody or any thing?

I rarely start a thread & have never been a thread starter, I oft
answer questions, so long as it's not you, the liar or a dealer I seem
to get on OK, even with those that don't particularly like me, at least
they begrudgingly accept I have a good go at being helpful.

("I'm positive Gould is a
socialist spammer, Krause is a lying windbag," etc, doesn't count). You
lay about in the shadows, saying nothing until its time once again to
feed your appetite for insult and mayhem. You then descend on your
sticky little web, with all eight legs flaily wildly, and begin
injecting poison into all you survey.

Well glad I'm not being abusive:-) Gould you posted spam nothing less
you also tried to significantly mislead the NG as to the size &
construction of this boat.

This isn't about my views on various construction methods it's about
yet another example of you being caught posting misleading marketing
spam, not unlike BS Bill does & always has.

Why not make a positive contribution for a change? Do you lack the
ability, or merely the desire?

I did!!!! I pointed out that this boat is more like a 23 ftr it's not
hand laid it uses a controversial new method (in this type of boat)
called vacuum infusion & I also even explained in detail how it's
done!!! You want more??? well hooly dooly what else can I tell ya, apart
from you're "articles" are regularly shown to be nothing more than a
rehashing of the marketers spruik.

Hmmm I'm tired but now need to sort out Krause's lie of the day,
thinking I'll have to start yours also:-)



K

This lying idiot has manufactured a story about his father being the
biggest OMC dealer on the US NE coast, needless to say Krause then says
that's where he learned all he obviously doesn't know about boats:-)

Here's just one of the lies from the "father" series, try to remember
he's talking $3000000 in the 70s!! Honestly it's embarrassing that a
grown man would lie like this I guess that's the standard of union thugs ???


I sold off nearly $3,000,000 in new motors and boats, depressing
the new boat
industry in southern Connecticut for an entire season. Everything
was sold...every cotter pin, every quart of oil, 30 days after I started.
For near full-retail, too.