Michael Daly wrote:
On 15-Jan-2005, Melissa wrote:

Is it bravado? Or can it simply be an appreciation of life?

It's definitely not bravado for me. ...snip

MikeD and Melissa, when I spoke of bravado, I was not referring to
MikeD, but to Sparks and his OP.

Sparks wrote:
"Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking.
This will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water Indiana
...pretty chilly right now). " ...snip

Nothing is mentioned of their skill level, or trip planning and gear
preparation, except to say that it is first time in cold water. Sounds
like newbie bravado to me to think they have any business going
paddling at this time and under these conditions. If he is concerned
about paying $400 for a drysuit, what other preparation is too much?
Are his friends equally unprepared? What a terrible way to end a bunch
of friendships in a cold water incident, that we would all discuss
later on the forum, about how unnecessary and stupid it all was!

Melissa, I too understand the spiritual mystery of the winter solace. I
am new to paddling, but have enjoyed many solitary backcountry ski
trips spending the night in a tent or snow cave. I have heard the snow
fall with soft thuds.

But when I go out it is with full survival gear. Not as recently here
in Colorado (you may have seen in the news), a supposedly experienced
backcountry skier took his wife and daughter into the Grand Mesa
without even matches. They have yet to find him, after he went for
help, leaving them in a snow cave. They survived and were rescued but
with what mental and emotional truama for the rest of their lives. All
for a short fun afternoon of BC skiing.

Also in the news, the out of bound skiers in Utah, who thougth the
rules did not apply to them. They apparently forgot that avalache kill!
I have seen the bravado of usually young skiers and boarders as they
slip under the boundry ropes. No preparation for survival, no
notification to anyone of where they are going, just a go-for-the-gusto
attitude. I have helped find and pull their bodies out of the
avalanche.

Melissa, I love your crazy attitude about being fortunate to be alive.
But I suspect that it is tempered with experience and not just
go-for-the-gusto. I think that you and MikeD both appreciate life, and
I envy you the multitude of paddling experiences and opportunities you
have up in the great north country. To Be able to go out in the winter
must be marvelous, and I desire in no way to disparage your joy.

But as a newbie to paddling I am going slow, and encourage other
newbies to be careful out there. It is a cold wet world out there that
can suck the life right out of you.

For you Melissa I will sign off as I use to, for I also appreciate
life!

Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

Tinkerntom wrote:
Michael Daly wrote:

On 15-Jan-2005, Melissa wrote:

Is it bravado? Or can it simply be an appreciation of life?

It's definitely not bravado for me. ...snip

MikeD and Melissa, when I spoke of bravado, I was not referring to
MikeD, but to Sparks and his OP.

Sparks wrote:
"Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking.
This will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water Indiana
..pretty chilly right now). " ...snip

Nothing is mentioned of their skill level, or trip planning and gear
preparation, except to say that it is first time in cold water. Sounds
like newbie bravado to me to think they have any business going
paddling at this time and under these conditions.

Excuse me? Bravado? Sparks has kayaked in warmer weather and now asks
for some advice about winter kayaking and that's "newbie bravado?"
Bravado is going out with ignorant confidence (or confident ignorance)
into sketchy conditions, not sitting in a warm house and asking for advice.

Steve

Steve, in my previous post I acknowledge that Sparks made no mention of
his paddling experience, except to say that this would be the first
time in cold water. He could very well be a very experienced expert
paddler in warmer water, and this may be why he even bothered to post
his question, because he recognizes his lack of experience in cold
water. That is a wise newbie, but still a newbie to cold water.

It would be bravado if knowing the water is cold, he proceeded with his
plans without making the proper preparations, skill-wise and gear-wise.
I would not want to ever discourage someone from asking any question
but it is not sufficient just to ask questions, but heed the answers
offered by those who have gone before. Lord knows that I have ask
plenty of dumb questions.

He may heed those answers and have a wonderful fulfilling trip, and I
would wish him well. I would love to hear a trip report when he is
back, and appreciate his pictures. That for the time being is the
closest I can come to such a trip, and suragocy sucks, but its better
than nothing. TnT

On 15-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

That is a wise newbie, but still a newbie to cold water.

Wise or otherwise, it is impossible to do cold water paddling
without at one point being a newbie. If you're never a newbie,
you'll never be experienced. Telling people to avoid cold
water because they're newbies is nonsense. Better to give them
useful advice and sources of where to learn.

Mike

Granted, and hopefully they listen to the advise, as Sparks apparent
has. I am not saying avoid cold, but avoid stupid! To quote Forrest
Gump, " Stupid is, as stupid does!"

I love being a newbie, because as a newbie, I can't make any mistakes
except not asking questions. The problem is that once I ask the
questions, and then go out and get some experience, I am no longer just
a newbie. At best I can be a wiser newbie, maybe a stupid newbie, and
hopefully not a dead newbie! TnT

Granted, and hopefully they listen to the advise, as Sparks apparent
has. I am not saying avoid cold, but avoid stupid! To quote Forrest
Gump, " Stupid is, as stupid does!"


I love being a newbie, because as a newbie, I can't make any mistakes
except not asking questions. The problem is that once I ask the
questions, and then go out and get some experience, I am no longer just
a newbie. At best I can be a wiser newbie, maybe a stupid newbie, and
hopefully not a dead newbie!

The worst scenario, is a bunch of newbies going off and doing the
newbie thing, and getting a dose of reality altogether when they were
altogether unprepared for that reality. TnT

in article , Tinkerntom
at wrote on 1/16/05 7:06 PM:

Granted, and hopefully they listen to the advise, as Sparks apparent
has. I am not saying avoid cold, but avoid stupid! To quote Forrest
Gump, " Stupid is, as stupid does!"


I love being a newbie, because as a newbie, I can't make any mistakes
except not asking questions. The problem is that once I ask the
questions, and then go out and get some experience, I am no longer just
a newbie. At best I can be a wiser newbie, maybe a stupid newbie, and
hopefully not a dead newbie!

The worst scenario, is a bunch of newbies going off and doing the
newbie thing, and getting a dose of reality altogether when they were
altogether unprepared for that reality. TnT

Questions:

How many people die each year while sea kayaking?

What percentage of those are actually beginners?

I don't know how many die, I just don't want to be one of them if I
have anything to say or do about it! TnT

I don't know how many die, I just don't want to be one of them, or my
friends, if I
have anything to say or do about it! TnT

Keenan Wellar wrote in
:

in article ,
Tinkerntom at wrote on 1/16/05 7:06 PM:

Granted, and hopefully they listen to the advise, as Sparks apparent
has. I am not saying avoid cold, but avoid stupid! To quote Forrest
Gump, " Stupid is, as stupid does!"


I love being a newbie, because as a newbie, I can't make any mistakes
except not asking questions. The problem is that once I ask the
questions, and then go out and get some experience, I am no longer
just a newbie. At best I can be a wiser newbie, maybe a stupid newbie,
and hopefully not a dead newbie!

The worst scenario, is a bunch of newbies going off and doing the
newbie thing, and getting a dose of reality altogether when they were
altogether unprepared for that reality. TnT

Questions:

How many people die each year while sea kayaking?

Define sea kayaking?


What percentage of those are actually beginners?

It seems that every year around March-April there are several stories posted
here about beginners that have gone out when the air temperatures warm up
but the water is still cold. Typically it's the same story...no PFD and/or
appropriate clothing for immersion. Last year a couple of guys went out on
our local lake in a canoe and capsized about 400' from shore. The water
temperature on the lake at the time was in the low 40's. They didn't have
PFDs and were wearing jeans and t-shirts. They, were, however fortunate
that a cottage owner saw them go over, jumped in a power boat and went out
to rescue them. I have no doubt whatsoever that they would have died if the
cottage owner had not seen them capsize.