On 14 Jan 2005 18:04:32 -0800, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling
experience. I found this article which was originally released as a
white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community.

http://tinyurl.com/6wozp
...

Am I alone in thinking that the drysuits worn for diving are just a tad
different than those worn paddling?

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Guns don't kill people, religions do

Galen Hekhuis wrote:
On 14 Jan 2005 18:04:32 -0800, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling
experience. I found this article which was originally released as a
white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking
community.

http://tinyurl.com/6wozp
...

Am I alone in thinking that the drysuits worn for diving are just a
tad
different than those worn paddling?

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA

Guns don't kill people, religions do


Galen, you are definitely correct about there being dedicated kayak
drysuits. Some even designed and worn by dedicated kayakers. The
problem as I understand it is that the basic technology is the same. A
watertight human container which would normally incorporate insulating
layers for the purpose of keeping you drier and hence warmer in extreme
cold water. Apart from the bouyancy factor used by divers, there are
not a lot of basic differences in the technology.

The primary risk is maintaining the watertight characteristic. A breach
of the seals, zipper, or basic material could be fatal. The Bare
statement could just be a CYA, but the issues should be considered by
the kayaking community at large, and by the individual that is
considering using a drysuit in the kayaking environment. Obviously we
each have to make our own decision, and I would not want to see any
sort of required certification process in the practice of our sport of
choice - Kayaking.TnT

On 15 Jan 2005 16:47:57 -0800, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

Galen, you are definitely correct about there being dedicated kayak
drysuits. Some even designed and worn by dedicated kayakers. The
problem as I understand it is that the basic technology is the same. A
watertight human container which would normally incorporate insulating
layers for the purpose of keeping you drier and hence warmer in extreme
cold water. Apart from the bouyancy factor used by divers, there are
not a lot of basic differences in the technology.

The primary risk is maintaining the watertight characteristic. A breach
of the seals, zipper, or basic material could be fatal. The Bare
statement could just be a CYA, but the issues should be considered by
the kayaking community at large, and by the individual that is
considering using a drysuit in the kayaking environment. Obviously we
each have to make our own decision, and I would not want to see any
sort of required certification process in the practice of our sport of
choice - Kayaking.TnT

Catastrophic failure is just not that common an event even with a diver's
type drysuit. I'm no expert by any means, I paddle the warm Florida waters
only on very calm days and definitely don't poke into any underwater holes.
The cave divers here often spend long times in decompression (I mean long,
it is not at all unheard of for folks to spend hours just decompressing.
The sinks and stuff they climb into are not exactly gentle on whatever is
worn, neither is the underbrush they often hike through (suited up). A
large rip or tear at depth might flood the suit with rather undesirable
results for the diver, but I doubt a rip or tear would cause a kayaker to
come to grief, unless in a sea or lake, in which case a rip or tear would
be rather unlikely, and the (far superior) warmth attainable in a drysuit
might well be needed. I don't think there is a "drysuit certification"
anyway, at least I haven't heard of it, but like I say, I don't dive.


Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Guns don't kill people, religions do

On 15-Jan-2005, Galen Hekhuis wrote:

I don't think there is a "drysuit certification"
anyway, at least I haven't heard of it, but like I say, I don't dive.

There is drysuit certification. Since you use your drysuit instead of
BC for bouyancy control, you have to learn the ins and outs of the
drysuit. There are also issues wrt making sure the air in the drysuit
doesn't go into the legs etc.

BTW dive drysuits that I've seen are much tougher than paddling
suits. They tend to be aimed at pro or very serious divers
(since the average rec diver avoids cold water) and are made
to last.

Mike

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 06:34:48 GMT, "Michael Daly"
wrote:

On 15-Jan-2005, Galen Hekhuis wrote:

I don't think there is a "drysuit certification"
anyway, at least I haven't heard of it, but like I say, I don't dive.

There is drysuit certification. Since you use your drysuit instead of
BC for bouyancy control, you have to learn the ins and outs of the
drysuit. There are also issues wrt making sure the air in the drysuit
doesn't go into the legs etc.

Clearly I was wrong. I would have been more accurate if I had said that
there was no certification requirement to use a drysuit like there is for
getting SCUBA tanks filled with air. It is very difficult to get a SCUBA
tank filled if you cannot show proof of training from some agency, there is
no such restriction on donning a drysuit.

BTW dive drysuits that I've seen are much tougher than paddling
suits. They tend to be aimed at pro or very serious divers
(since the average rec diver avoids cold water) and are made
to last.

All the drysuits that I've seen have been owned by local divers, and, while
they don't think of themselves as being professional, they do consider
themselves rather serious about cave diving (though sometimes not about
other things). I don't know what you consider cold, but a lot of divers
I've talked to consider decompressing in 73 degree water to be rather
chilly, considering it may be some time of doing virtually nothing. In any
event, most of what I hear them complain about is little leaks as opposed
to tears and rips. While drysuits used by kayakers may be of lighter
construction, they aren't made of flimsy material either. Unless one is
completely submerged, it is difficult (though not beyond the realm of
possibility) for me to imagine a circumstance in which a kayaker might have
their drysuit flood to the point of becoming a hazard in itself.

What I know about immersion protection could be put in an ant's brain and
it would roll around like a B-B in a boxcar, which is one of the reasons I
generally stick to the warm waters of Florida. I don't have to deal with
shoveling snow out of the driveway, either.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Guns don't kill people, religions do

....stuff deleted

All the drysuits that I've seen have been owned by local divers, and, while
they don't think of themselves as being professional, they do consider
themselves rather serious about cave diving (though sometimes not about
other things). I don't know what you consider cold, but a lot of divers
I've talked to consider decompressing in 73 degree water to be rather
chilly, considering it may be some time of doing virtually nothing. In any
event, most of what I hear them complain about is little leaks as opposed
to tears and rips. While drysuits used by kayakers may be of lighter
construction, they aren't made of flimsy material either. Unless one is
completely submerged, it is difficult (though not beyond the realm of
possibility) for me to imagine a circumstance in which a kayaker might have
their drysuit flood to the point of becoming a hazard in itself.


The shop I dove with (I haven't been diving in quite a while) provided
dry suit certification with each sale of product. If you were not
associated with the shop, you did not have a card on file. If so, you
were asked what certifications you had prior to renting equipment and
were required to provide (at the very least) your NAUI or PADI card.
While these did not indicate dry suit certification, they did suggest
the level of achievement of the diver and made them feel as though they
followed reasonable process in case of liability.

Here in the west, the ocean is seldom above 55F (in Monterey, the
temperatures don't fluctuate much due to the cold water upwellings) and
drop to mid to low forties as you go deeper (70-100 ft). This is fine
for wetsuits (6mm), even during decom stops, though those who dive "dry"
tend to be happier afterward (grin).

What I know about immersion protection could be put in an ant's brain and
it would roll around like a B-B in a boxcar, which is one of the reasons I
generally stick to the warm waters of Florida. I don't have to deal with
shoveling snow out of the driveway, either.


It really isn't that much different, you just need to dress
appropriately (which often means too warmly since it can be quite warm
out here 3 seasons of the year). Often this means lots of rolling or
rescue practice to cool off.

Rick

Galen Hekhuis wrote:
On 14 Jan 2005 18:04:32 -0800, "Tinkerntom" wrote:


Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling
experience. I found this article which was originally released as a
white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community.

http://tinyurl.com/6wozp
...


Am I alone in thinking that the drysuits worn for diving are just a tad
different than those worn paddling?

There is a huge difference, which I've detailed in my reply to
Tinkertom's post.

I'm not Wilko but I can help with some insight in this area since I have
been in the paddling industry for some time. Part of that time I repped for
a company that sold wet suits along with many other things. The differences
between one wet suit from another if very big. You can get a wide variety
of thickness so one can use a suit on the summer and another can use one
diving is Alaskan waters. The same goes for hoods, booties, socks and
gloves. Some suite can get so thick that they are not good to use for
paddling since paddlers need good range of motion. This is the simple
explanation. I hope it helped.

Courtney

"Brian Nystrom" wrote in message
...
Galen Hekhuis wrote:
On 14 Jan 2005 18:04:32 -0800, "Tinkerntom" wrote:


Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling
experience. I found this article which was originally released as a
white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community.

http://tinyurl.com/6wozp
...


Am I alone in thinking that the drysuits worn for diving are just a tad
different than those worn paddling?

There is a huge difference, which I've detailed in my reply to
Tinkertom's post.

Courtney wrote:

I'm not Wilko but I can help with some insight in this area since I have
been in the paddling industry for some time. Part of that time I repped for
a company that sold wet suits along with many other things. The differences
between one wet suit from another if very big. You can get a wide variety
of thickness so one can use a suit on the summer and another can use one
diving is Alaskan waters. The same goes for hoods, booties, socks and
gloves. Some suite can get so thick that they are not good to use for
paddling since paddlers need good range of motion. This is the simple
explanation. I hope it helped.

You're not me? So much for me being on two continents at the same time! ;-)

Seriously though, you said it much better than I could have. Thank you
for the explanation!

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/