Brian Nystrom wrote:
Michael Daly wrote:
On 11-Jan-2005, "sparks" wrote:

..

Sparks, if you can't afford proper immersion clothing for the
conditions, stay off the water. Cold water is not the place for
bravado
and bluster. It's a very unforgiving environment that must be treated

with respect. Sure, people get away with pushing their luck, just as
with many other activities. However, you could just as easily be the
one
that doesn't get away with it. IMO, it's not worth it. Save your
money
and buy a dry suit on sale in the spring. You'll still need it until
the
water warms up, anyway.

Sparks, I have been following this discussion, and reread the
responses. Basically I think what it comes down to is that each has
their own threshold tolerance for wet, windy, cold, latex, neoprene,
zippers, etc. What you might think about doing is this - Don your
prospective gear, and go run up and down the shore, and do some good
aerobic excercises, work up a sweat. Then get in the water and go out
about 10 ft. and get good and wet. Remember kayaking is a wet water
sport. Don't fuss with a boat, or any other gear at this time. You will
know in about 5 minutes whether the immersion gear you have is adequate
or not. Try swiming, and be sure and get your head under. Check your
sudden gasp response. Do this about 3 times, and then run back and set
in the car/PU, with heater running, and a nice warm cup of coffee. Like
Brian says, you may not take any more convincing to wait for a nice
spring day!

On the other hand, if you are having a good time, and remember your
doing this for the fun of it. And your wetsuit is comfortably cold, and
like MikeD and Wilko, you can't wait to get in your boat, then go the
next step. Take your boat down to the water this time and do a wet
entry after again getting all wet and standing in the water for 5
minutes. No seal launches, no buffs. Just a complete wet entry. If it
doesn't happen, get out of the water and back in the warm vehicle, more
warm coffee.

If it happens, go for a short paddle, and return to start, wet exit,
and start over. Remember you are probably doing this in a relatively
protected area when well rested. So many incidents occur after jumping
in a boat, paddling way out from shore, or down a river run, and all of
a sudden your tired and the waves and the wind get to kicking up, and
the warm car/PU is a long ways away. And all you can think of is the
warm Coffee.

Which reminds me, about all that coffee! That is why the relief zipper
is so important and that it work smoothly!! :=) TnT

On 14-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

Don your
prospective gear, and go run up and down the shore, and do some good
aerobic excercises, work up a sweat. Then get in the water and go out
about 10 ft. and get good and wet. Remember kayaking is a wet water
sport. Don't fuss with a boat, or any other gear at this time. You will
know in about 5 minutes whether the immersion gear you have is adequate
or not. Try swiming, and be sure and get your head under. Check your
sudden gasp response. Do this about 3 times,

If this little test in any way represents the conditions that a sea kayaker
could reasonably expect while paddling, the mistake they made was paddling
in such conditions.

If you choose to paddle during the winter in conditions where you _will_
get seriously wet and/or are at significant risk of capsize and a swim,
then you clearly should not be allowed out of the house alone.

Most of us check the weather before going out. If the conditions are
acceptable, then we go. Under these conditions, I have _never_, ever
capsized in all my years of paddling. Not once. So, the cold weather
gear is to protect against an unlikely condition. Furthermore, if
I go alone, I will only wear a drysuit, since only a drysuit gives the
degree of protection that suits solo paddling. A wetsuit will not
provide enough protection unless it is so bulky that it can't be
paddled in. If I paddle with the usual gang, I might wear a farmer
john and drytop, since I know they can provide an assisted rescue
quickly assuming my roll fails.

The claims that drysuits are bulky are nonsense. They are no more
difficult to move in than any other winter clothing. Gore-tex over
fleece - what's the big deal?

In your other post, you point out that there is a risk that the fabric
might tear. Not likely. I wear Gore-tex clothing almost year round
when hiking, skiing and other sports. I put that stuff through a lot
of abuse and can't remember ever tearing Gore-Tex. The seals are the
weak point, but inspecting them is a good preventative measure. If
your suit has Gore-tex or neoprene protection over the seals, as some
good paddling suits have, the risk of a tear from an external source
is low.

The seals on my drysuit are 6 years old and should be replaced soon.
My drytop is about 8 years old and in much better shape. They can
last a reasonable amount of time if taken care of.

The risks are from the weather and water conditions, not from your
gear. If you focus on that and make sure you are prepared, the
risks are easy to control. Winter paddling can be riskier than
summer paddling, but you don't hear about paddling incidents in
the winter. That's probably because the winter conditions
keep the fools off the water.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:
On 14-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

Don your
prospective gear, and go run up and down the shore, and do some
good
aerobic excercises, work up a sweat. Then get in the water ...
snip

If this little test in any way represents the conditions that a sea
kayaker
could reasonably expect while paddling, the mistake they made was
paddling
in such conditions.

If you choose to paddle during the winter in conditions where you
_will_
get seriously wet and/or are at significant risk of capsize and a
swim,
then you clearly should not be allowed out of the house alone.

Most of us check the weather before going out. If the conditions are
acceptable, then we go. Under these conditions, I have _never_, ever
capsized in all my years of paddling. Not once. So, the cold
weather
gear is to protect against an unlikely condition. Furthermore, if
I go alone, I will only wear a drysuit, since only a drysuit gives
the
degree of protection that suits solo paddling. A wetsuit will not
provide enough protection unless it is so bulky that it can't be
paddled in. If I paddle with the usual gang, I might wear a farmer
john and drytop, since I know they can provide an assisted rescue
quickly assuming my roll fails.

The claims that drysuits are bulky are nonsense. They are no more
difficult to move in than any other winter clothing. Gore-tex over
fleece - what's the big deal?

In your other post, you point out that there is a risk that the
fabric
might tear. Not likely. I wear Gore-tex clothing almost year round
when hiking, skiing and other sports. I put that stuff through a lot
of abuse and can't remember ever tearing Gore-Tex. The seals are the
weak point, but inspecting them is a good preventative measure. If
your suit has Gore-tex or neoprene protection over the seals, as some
good paddling suits have, the risk of a tear from an external source
is low.

The seals on my drysuit are 6 years old and should be replaced soon.
My drytop is about 8 years old and in much better shape. They can
last a reasonable amount of time if taken care of.

The risks are from the weather and water conditions, not from your
gear. If you focus on that and make sure you are prepared, the
risks are easy to control. Winter paddling can be riskier than
summer paddling, but you don't hear about paddling incidents in
the winter. That's probably because the winter conditions
keep the fools off the water.

Mike

That is one big focus, "make sure you are prepared, the risks are easy
to control"??? The problem is that as a newbie am I trully capable of
assessing the risk, and being properly prepared? to go out in extreme
cold water conditions.

"The risks are from the weather and water conditions, not from your
gear." That again is the point, as a newbie it is easy to talk about a
particular piece of gear. If I have a drysuit, then the weather and
water conditions are no longer a concern. And to suggest that if I have
a drysuit, I now have clearance to paddle solo in critical conditions,
only adds to the dangerous lack of proper risk assesment.

However, if I get in the water, and have to face the facts as to how
cold it is and the limits of my gear to keep me warm, and the
likelyhood of my being unable to handle the specific paddling
environment, then I may be more inclined to stay home as you recommend,
or at least not be allowed out alone.
Bravado gets cold real fast!

I appreciate MikeD that you are also an accomplished paddler, so the
content of the white page is probably not aimed at you. But the newbie
that dons a drysuit and paddles off on a new adventure, is likely the
same one who does not check the weather, or that the seals are all
good, or there is not a tear in the drysuit that they got on eBay for a
bargain, or that the zipper is closed all the way. Besides having a
reasonably bombproof roll or all the other skills and gear that make
for safe paddling.

I disagree with you, that "the cold weather gear is to protect against
an unlikely condition." If you mean that, as it is unlikely to snow in
the summer, but we have all probably heard of this happening. In fact,
the very situation where a newbie wears a drysuit, is where the
undesirable scenario is likely to happen. This as you point out, could
just as likely be during a season when the water is warm enough that
wearing a drysuit is not required, and by so doing, the newbie exposes
himself to an unnecessary elevated risk! And if a likely or unlikely
incident does occur, you had better know that your life support system
is adequate!

So yeah, I think this little test with all its limitations is at least
a start. If a kayaker or their gear, cannot pass this test, it is very
doubtful that they would pass a real test at sea or down the river.
IMHO, I need to stay home till it warms a bit this Spring. My bravado
has cold feet. TnT

On 15-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

That is one big focus, "make sure you are prepared, the risks are easy
to control"??? The problem is that as a newbie am I trully capable of
assessing the risk, and being properly prepared? to go out in extreme
cold water conditions.

My first paragraph addressed the issue of "extreme" conditions. The only
thing different about winter paddling should be the temperature - that's
not extreme. If you insist on paddling in extreme conditions, you deserve
what you get.

Sparky asked for advice - I assume that he therefore has enough interest
in safe winter paddling to study the situation. If he does this and still
makes an error in risk assessment, and he has heeded other guidelines
(not paddling alone, carrying emergency gear, staying a reasonable
distance from shore etc) a failure is not likely to be deadly. It's just
a learning experience.

If I have a drysuit, then the weather and
water conditions are no longer a concern. And to suggest that if I have
a drysuit, I now have clearance to paddle solo in critical conditions,
only adds to the dangerous lack of proper risk assesment.

No one has suggested that. I said specifically that the gear is not
the risk - it's the weather and water.

But the newbie
that dons a drysuit and paddles off on a new adventure, is likely the
same one who does not check the weather, or that the seals are all
good, or there is not a tear in the drysuit that they got on eBay for a
bargain, or that the zipper is closed all the way.

That's not a newbie, that's a fool. We're not saying that there should
be billboards advertising that anyone that wears a drysuit is ultimately
safe and should paddle all winter. We're saying that immersion
protection is a first step. We've also added other bits of advice
concerning conditions and preparedness.

I disagree with you, that "the cold weather gear is to protect against
an unlikely condition."

If I've paddled for years and _never_ capsized, how does a capsize
become a likely condition?

This as you point out, could
just as likely be during a season when the water is warm enough that
wearing a drysuit is not required, and by so doing, the newbie exposes
himself to an unnecessary elevated risk!

Fact of life - most paddlers are out in the summer and hypothermia kills
more than drowing. Risk management in paddling is not a seasonal thing.

Lots of people paddle in the winter and survive. Some of us cross-
country ski in the winter, kilometers from a shelter, wearing little
more than long underwear and skin-tight Lycra clothing. We don't
die of hypothermia every day. We sleep in snow shelters winter
camping and survive. We swim in arctic rivers in winter and then
hop into a sauna and survive (photo at link taken by me in Finland
a couple of years ago - 150km north of the Arctic Circle).

http://www.greatlakeskayaker.ca/images/crazyAmie.jpg

The kayak was invented in the environment that you seem to fear. Those
of us that live in winter, rather than hiding indoors, learn to accept
and deal with the risk and enjoy life.

Mike