Wilko wrote:


Brian Nystrom wrote:

Wilko wrote:

Have you ever actually worn a dry suit, Wilko? From your comments, it
certainly doesn't seem so. I use one 7-8 months of the year and my
experience varies dramatically from yours.


Have you ever actually paddled whitewater, Brian? From your comments it
certainly doesn't seem so. I use a wetsuit with a seperate drytop all
year around, both when it's freezing in the winter and when it's in the
middle of the summer.

No, I don't paddle whitewater and never claimed to. The person who
posted the question didn't say anything about whitewater, either.

Your comments may have some merit when talking about paddling at sea,
but I was talking about paddling whitewater.

Fine, but you still haven't answered the question.

I personally don't like paddling drysuits. First of all, I think that
they just cost too much, especially for a beginning paddler. It's
still necessary to wear a thick enough layer of clothes underneath to
keep out the cold and to have some padding in the case of a close
encounter with hard objects.


It's called "insulation" and you need it regardless. I don't see your
point.


Then maybe you should look again: Neoprene insulates rather well, unlike
the fabric of a dry suit

Who said otherwise? That's a bogus argument, as any fool knows you need
insulating layers in a dry suit.

*and* neoprene absorbs some of the impact when
you happen to bump into some rocks, unlike the fabric of a dry suit.

Once more, who said otherwise?

You
*can* add layers between the wetsuit and the drytop, but the wetsuit
insulates and protects already without that.

And you can add as many layers under a dry suit as necessary, so it
doesn't make any difference if the fabric insulates or not. Unlike a
wetsuit, a Gore-Tex (or similar) dry suit breathes, so you don't end up
soaking wet from sweat.

It's also not all that easy to get into a new or newly gasketed
drysuit, having witnessed all too many wrestling drysuit owners
trying very hard to get into their prized garments...


If you trim the seals to fit properly and apply a bit of talc to the
inside, the slip on and off easily.

Yeah right!

Try it, it works! Ask around and you'll hear the same thing from others.
Nothing to it.

I've owned a number of drytops, and although they do tend to become
easier to get into over time, some do take quite a bit of effort to get
in and out of. Since I have a couple of friends who've invested in
drysuits, I've had the pleasure of seeing them wrestle even more, and I
tend to help them get in and out of their garments like I help some of
my drytop wearing friends to get in and out of those.

I'll bet you that I can get into and out of my dry suit faster than you
can get into and out of your wetsuit. As I said, if you trim the seals
to fit right and powder them, you slip right in. If you prefer to
struggle, that's fine with me.

Dry tops tend to be harder to get into and out of, since they have to
fit tight around the waist and the double tunnel adds a layer of
complication. I find them much more difficult than a full dry suit,
which is like slipping into coveralls. And yes, I own two dry tops
currently and have owned others in the past. The latest is a Bomber gear
with a Velcro waist closure that eliminates the struggle of getting the
damn thing past your shoulders.

And then I haven't started about the strength and agility needed to
close that zipper! :-)

Properly lubed zippers aren't a problem.

Of course, you don't have sand or other particles that seem to be
magnetically attracted to those zippers. Even in wetsuits I've seen
zippers get permanently stuck due to that kind of stuff,

I have never had a single problem with sand jamming a drysuit zipper,
not one. Having a flap over the zipper helps I'm sure, but I've never
even taken any special steps to keep the zippers clean. However, I don't
roll around in the sand, either.

not to mention
the times that drysuit wearers have asked me to help them with their
zipper, in part because of the poor location of those zippers (on the
back).

The vast majority of dry suits sold over here have a front zipper that
goes from the right shoulder to the left hip. It's easy to operate
without assistance. The large opening also makes getting in and out
really easy.

My main problem with them are the gaskets though. I don't like a
latex gasket around my neck, as I really abhor a neck rash.

While some people do have problems with latex reactions, this is not a
given. In fact, it's not very common. For example, of the 50 or so
friends I can think of who own dry suits, only one has discovered that
he has a latex alergy.


I am not talking about latex allergy, I'm talking about the chafing and
rubbing of the gasket when you turn your head. Having two layers of
neoprene (as my current semi-drytop has) seems to solve that problem, by
having one (long) layer move with my neck's movement, and the other
layer staying in place on the outside.

I've never had a chafing problem with the seals on a dry suit, or a dry
top, for that matter. If you don't like dry suit gaskets around your
neck, how do you deal with drytop gaskets, which are the same thing?

These neck gaskets are the first to become so wide that water can
freely flow in and out, because your (big) head has to go through
them, stretching the darn thing, whereas it should shrink to the size
of your neck after that every time.

This is just plain wrong!

Sure Brian...

I call 'em as I see 'em. Latex does not stretch appreciably in normal
use. Ask the manufacturers of the seals, if you don't believe me.

Latex has a very good memory, which is why stretching seals to make
them fit better is largely a waste of time. Latex seals can readily
stretch over the largest head, then snap back to be very tight, if
they're not trimmed to fit properly.

I have two drytops right now that call you a liar, as well as several
more that I have owned in the past. The wrist gaskets on each of those
have stretched enough to become less tight over time. The neck gasket on
the dry top of several of my friends (and my girlfriend's old drytop)
also have stretched enough as to not close the neck off completely any
more.

Then it's time to replace your seals. The stretching has nothing to do
with putting them on and taking them off, it has to do with the seals
degrading due to UV exposure, skin oil, sunscreen and so on. I don't
doubt that your seals are loosening up, but it's not for the reason you
think it is.

Besides, seeing how many of the drysuits have no protective

neoprene cover, getting a deep scratch from a sharp rock, branches or
thorns makes the entire term "dry" suit a lie.

This is very misleading. While it's true that dry suits are not
ideally suited to negotiating thorny shores or frequent abrasion
against rocks, they're far more durable that you suggest.

Nonsense again. I'm talking about the vulnerability of latex gaskets
when they are without a neoprene cover. I don't say anything about the
vulnerability of the material that makes up the rest of the suit (or dry
top for that matter).

Fine. Then buy garments with covers over the seals. It's not like they
aren't widely available. Problem solved.

For sea kayaking, they're extremely durable.

Who is talking about sea kayaking? How many bramble bushes or other
shrubbery with thorns grow out on sea, Brian?

Did the original question reference bramble bushes?

You make these blanket statements about latex seal durability as if
they're absolute truth, but conveniently forget to mention that they're
based on your experience while running around in bramble bushes and
rubbing against rocks, as if it doesn't make any difference. It make a
HUGE difference. If you abuse your dry suit or top, of course you're
going to have durability problems. I imagine your wetsuits get pretty
scarred up, too. Yes, I know that it doesn't matter much if a wet suit
gets shredded.

It takes about an hour to do a pair of wrists or ankles (or latex socks)

and perhaps an hour and a half to do a neck seal. It's not difficult,
either. Wrist and ankle seals are ~$25/pair and a neck seal is
~$30-$35. Properly treated, seals will last at least four seasons of
frequent use.

Four seasons without stretching at all, eh?

Yup. At the end of the forth season on my current suit, the seals
finally started showing signs of degredation and needed to be replaced.
That's with 7-8 months of use per year.

BTW, I don't know what you earn per hour, but I do earn a bit more than
the material cost of those gaskets per hour, which means that sitting
there for 2,5 hours is quite a bit of time and money.

Is this a joke or something? Who takes time off from work to fix their
dry suit seals? Be serious.

Also, it also
takes considerably more time than just your run of the mill gasket
replacement if the gasket has torn up along the stitched line where the
latex meets the breathable material.

That's what happens when you abuse them, let them go too long and wait
for a catastrophic failure before replacing them. When they start to
loosen up, it means that they're starting to fail. If that's happening
prematurely to your seals, you need to examine your care and maintenance
practices.

Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and
cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed
when he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside
your leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can
also cause you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe.

Incidents like that are exceedingly rare. Seals are not fragile unless
they're old and are in need of replacement. They don't just
spontaneously tear for no reason. Every seal failure I've seen has
occurred either when the paddler was putting the suit on or taking it
off. I have never seen a seal fail on the water. Barring some bizarre
circumstances, it simply doesn't happen.

I've torn three wrist gaskets on the river. On after scratching it with
a thorn, one after hitting something under water and one along the
stitched line, where the stitch has started to create a little tear
along several of the holes. I noticed none of them untill the water
started to seep in. I've only seen two torn neck gaskets, but as larry's
story proves, that can have dire consequences on the river. Better have
an extra layer of neoprene over that gasket for exactly that reason.

I agree that keeping them covered is a very good idea. Again, who said
otherwise?

Still, despite those horror stories many drysuit owners swear by
their virtues, and I have to agree that seeing them get out of their
suit after a day of paddling almost dry does have its merits.


All it takes is one experience of stripping off a damp wetsuit in a 30
degree F breeze to convince you that there has to be a better way. Dry
suits are that better way. Not only are they more comfortable to wear,
but at the end of the day, you slip out of it, throw on a jacket and
you're good to go.

I'm not convinced that spending that much money for a dry suit is indeed
such a good thing, and I've definately done my part of stripping off my
wetsuit at below freezing temperatures.

Then don't buy one. But don't try to tell me or anyone else that it's
not a hell of a lot more comfortable than a wetsuit, both in use and
when donning and doffing the suit. Then again, if you haven't worn one,
you wouldn't know.

It's funny, whenever I get into a wetsuit vs. dry suit debate, it
ultimately comes down to a matter of money. Every one of the
anti-drysuit types I've encountered has been looking for a way to
justify not spending the extra money.

I agree with you that if you're going to beat the hell out of your
immersion gear, neoprene is more durable, or at least it will maintain
its meager insulation value when it gets shredded. That would make it a
better investment, since it's less costly to replace neoprene than
Gore-Tex.

On the other hand, if you take reasonable care of your immersion gear
and particularly if you're a sea kayaker, there's no comparison. Dry
suits win hands-down. The provide better comfort in use, better freedom
of movement, more versatility in adapting to weather conditions and
greater comfort at the end of the day when you take it off, among other
things.

Gore-Text doesn't require any special treatment beyond rinsing it off
after use in salt water and letting it dry. It's advisable to re-apply
a durable water repellent (DWR) periodically, but I know very few
people who actually do that, myself included. Gore-Tex is considerably
more durable than coated fabrics and the contrary to what you might
expect, the breathability make a HUGE difference.

Yep, I do have two breathable (semi-) drytops, which do make a
difference, although with all the flipping that a rodeokayaker does,
their benefit is not as big as with someone who doesnt spend as much
time upside-down or dripping wet. :-)

True.