Michael Daly wrote:
On 10-Jan-2005, Rick wrote:


Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a
dry suit is a must.


The OP didn't bother to say whether he's referring to WW or SK.

The poster did identify his location (near the great lakes - where I
assumed he'd be paddling), which is one where temps in winter can be
well below 0 for extended periods of time (temps as long as -30F to -50F
are not common, but they do occur). During a warm spell (he later
mentioned 25F forecast, probably with significant wind, which probably
qualifies at this time of year as such), a wet suit is fairly
inadequate. The dry top is a good block for the wind, but the wetsuit
itself is not. Most are useless in the wind, by the way, as air has no
difficulty penetratring the seams in the fabric.

I also agree that there are issues with dry suits (I don't own one, by
the way, but have used them and find them too expensive to be
justifyable), and the gaskets are uncomfortable, at best.


For sea kayaking, a wetsuit would be fine _IF_ you are always paddling
in a group, the group members all know how to do quick assisted rescues
and you aren't going to swim for very long. If solo you'd be a lot
better off with a dry suit. A bombproof roll is useful as well.


Again, I disagree. Once wet, the suit will accumulate ice and its
thermal abilities would be compromised. Even with a 25F temperature,
without wind, you would find the water temperature to be quite
uncomfortable in a very short time. Sea kayaker did experiements in
water considerably warmer than this and the results were eye-opening.

Make sure you are prepared to deal with cold - extra gear and hot drinks
etc. If someone does end up in the water longer than they are comfortable,
get to shore and deal with it. Make sure you know about hypothermia and
how to treat it.


I quite agree.

People swim near-naked in freezing water every year and live to tell - just
do a Google search on "new year's day polar bear swim" and I'll bet
you'll get lots of hits.


Mike, you certainly will. They spend a few seconds in the water and seem
to be quite fine, afterward. Some individuals can stay in freezing water
for an extended period of time (the Icelandic fisherman in McPhee's book
on Iceland would be an example), but this is the exception. I would not
base any advice upon my own, or that of any other individual, personal
experience with cold water.

After a capsize, should you lack, or fail, a roll, you will be in the
water for a longer period of time than one of these swimmers. Note also
that these clubs have doctors and rescue equipment on hand for
emergencies. Most kayaking excursions are much less well equipped.
Surviving water that is 32F-35F (the likely temps in the region) is not
undoable, but if someone asks me for a recommendation on whether to
paddle on such water and I have little evidence of their skill or
hardiness, I will not, as some here have, recommend going out.

Paddling is best when you are comfortable, safe, and within your limits.
Knowing what I know of the midwest, and the fact that this individual
does not seem to definitely know the conditions he could safely paddle
in, left me with little other choice, IMO, than to throw the proverbial
cold water on his plans.

Rick

PS: Many dive shops will rent dry suits for considerably less than the
purchase price. I should probably have mentioned that, as well.

Ok - my 2 cents. I do not as yet boat in cold water myself but I do plan to
do it. I believe that 25 degrees is absolutely the wrong time to start going
out. When I am ready, I will follow some of the advice given here but I will
start making trips in the fall as the temps start downward and will make
adjustments as I find what works for ME and what does not. By the time the
temps reach 25 I will KNOW if I will be able to handle the conditions with a
fairly high degree of certainty. Again just my 2 cents but I think it is the
way to stay safe and explore your limits.

Ken


"Rick" wrote in message
ink.net...
Michael Daly wrote:
On 10-Jan-2005, Rick wrote:


Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a
dry suit is a must.


The OP didn't bother to say whether he's referring to WW or SK.

The poster did identify his location (near the great lakes - where I
assumed he'd be paddling), which is one where temps in winter can be
well below 0 for extended periods of time (temps as long as -30F to -50F
are not common, but they do occur). During a warm spell (he later
mentioned 25F forecast, probably with significant wind, which probably
qualifies at this time of year as such), a wet suit is fairly
inadequate. The dry top is a good block for the wind, but the wetsuit
itself is not. Most are useless in the wind, by the way, as air has no
difficulty penetratring the seams in the fabric.

I also agree that there are issues with dry suits (I don't own one, by
the way, but have used them and find them too expensive to be
justifyable), and the gaskets are uncomfortable, at best.


For sea kayaking, a wetsuit would be fine _IF_ you are always paddling
in a group, the group members all know how to do quick assisted rescues
and you aren't going to swim for very long. If solo you'd be a lot
better off with a dry suit. A bombproof roll is useful as well.


Again, I disagree. Once wet, the suit will accumulate ice and its
thermal abilities would be compromised. Even with a 25F temperature,
without wind, you would find the water temperature to be quite
uncomfortable in a very short time. Sea kayaker did experiements in
water considerably warmer than this and the results were eye-opening.

Make sure you are prepared to deal with cold - extra gear and hot drinks
etc. If someone does end up in the water longer than they are
comfortable,
get to shore and deal with it. Make sure you know about hypothermia and
how to treat it.


I quite agree.

People swim near-naked in freezing water every year and live to tell -
just
do a Google search on "new year's day polar bear swim" and I'll bet
you'll get lots of hits.


Mike, you certainly will. They spend a few seconds in the water and seem
to be quite fine, afterward. Some individuals can stay in freezing water
for an extended period of time (the Icelandic fisherman in McPhee's book
on Iceland would be an example), but this is the exception. I would not
base any advice upon my own, or that of any other individual, personal
experience with cold water.

After a capsize, should you lack, or fail, a roll, you will be in the
water for a longer period of time than one of these swimmers. Note also
that these clubs have doctors and rescue equipment on hand for
emergencies. Most kayaking excursions are much less well equipped.
Surviving water that is 32F-35F (the likely temps in the region) is not
undoable, but if someone asks me for a recommendation on whether to
paddle on such water and I have little evidence of their skill or
hardiness, I will not, as some here have, recommend going out.

Paddling is best when you are comfortable, safe, and within your limits.
Knowing what I know of the midwest, and the fact that this individual
does not seem to definitely know the conditions he could safely paddle
in, left me with little other choice, IMO, than to throw the proverbial
cold water on his plans.

Rick

PS: Many dive shops will rent dry suits for considerably less than the
purchase price. I should probably have mentioned that, as well.

On 11-Jan-2005, Rick wrote:

The poster did identify his location (near the great lakes - where I
assumed he'd be paddling), which is one where temps in winter can be
well below 0 for extended periods of time

I live north of him and paddle in cold temps. I own a dry suit and
have also used a wet suit in winter.

The dry top is a good block for the wind, but the wetsuit
itself is not. Most are useless in the wind, by the way, as air has no
difficulty penetratring the seams in the fabric.

That depends on how strong the wind is or how cheap your wet suit is.
Mine at least has sealed seams. We were out on New Year's Day and
there was no wind. I was the only one in a drysuit and everyone else
was quite comfortable.

Since the standard wet suit is a farmer john, a jacket of some kind is
mandatory in wind. Drytop or just a windbreaker, you can be comfortable.

Again, I disagree. Once wet, the suit will accumulate ice and its
thermal abilities would be compromised. Even with a 25F temperature,
without wind, you would find the water temperature to be quite
uncomfortable in a very short time. Sea kayaker did experiements in
water considerably warmer than this and the results were eye-opening.

If you are in the kayak and paddling, you're producing heat. If ice forms,
it will crack and fall off. Besides, a wet suit doesn't hold that much
water on its surface. The neoprene itself does not absorb water and
will not have its insulation compromised. Been there, done that.

I don't know about the Sea Kayaker tests (cite please) but I know I've
gone for a swim in winter and if you're up to it, it isn't that bad.
The big problems are related to controlling breathing - cold water
gasp reflex (sudden inhalation when you hit cold water) can get you,
especially if you are underwater when it happens. When floating,
you have a tendency to breathe in panic mode - control that and
you most of the way to controlling the whole situation.

Note also that these clubs have doctors and rescue equipment on
hand for emergencies.

Liability issues and the fact that out-of-shape bozos come out of the
woodwork to join in the fun. If you've got a heart condition, no,
you shouldn't be risking cold water immersion. If you're fit, that's
another story.

After a capsize, should you lack, or fail, a roll, you will be in the
water for a longer period of time than one of these swimmers.

I've been in water these temps for longer than a few seconds. Even in
a wet suit, it can take several seconds just for the water to penetrate
to your skin if you've got layers on.

Surviving water that is 32F-35F (the likely temps in the region) is not
undoable, but if someone asks me for a recommendation on whether to
paddle on such water and I have little evidence of their skill or
hardiness, I will not, as some here have, recommend going out.

You only said that they have to have a drysuit. A drysuit by itself
is not a solution. I know of folks who have gone out in a drysuit
with no insulation underneath and another that wore a drysuit and
left the zippers open (he drowned - on Superior - I believe it was
discussed here a few years ago).

I give Sparky the benefit of the doubt and assume he's not an idiot,
since he asked for advice. Telling him to be prepared is better
than telling him to stay home.

Mike