J. A. M. wrote:
Mike McCrea wrote:

Celia,

About the class V's - understand that raft guides and companies
typically inflate the actual difficulty of a rapid by one class. If
your guide tells you it's a class V it's probably really a IV, and a
IV really a III.

They are selling an experience, an adventure, and having their
customers memories imprinted with the "Class V" rapid they ran is just
business as usual. Deceptive, but still not unusual.


That's a load of crap! How many rafts have you guided?

Talking about a load of carp: how many times did you paddle or raft the
Lower Gauley and encounter class V rapids?

I know more than a few rivers on both sides of the Altantic where the
rafting companies seem to have found some mysterious class V rapids that
are yet to be found or paddled by any other paddler, including locals
with hundreds of runs below their belt.

I've also overheard more than a few guides giving this kind of a "class
so and so" speech to their customers, even though they were talking
about runs that were at least one class easier than what they made them
seem to be.

If you want to deny that those practises are pretty common among raft
guides, go ahead... just don't expect experienced paddlers to take you
very serious.


--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

I stand corrected Jimbob; everyone knows a raft guide would never
exaggerate and I'm sure Celia's trip really "started out with a Class
V, and ended with a Class V. They were all pretty much evenly spaced
out."

About the class V's - understand that raft guides and companies
typically inflate the actual difficulty of a rapid by one class. If
your guide tells you it's a class V it's probably really a IV, and a
IV really a III.

They are selling an experience, an adventure, and having their
customers memories imprinted with the "Class V" rapid they ran is just
business as usual. Deceptive, but still not unusual.


That's a load of crap! How many rafts have you guided?

Totally normal on the Arkansas. Royal Gorge...Class V...bull (except
high water, and then it's shut down to commercial rafting).

sounds like pretty normal to me - swimming from a raft isn't all that
much fun - i've had my share of swims in the last year (not when I was
captaining the raft - I won't say guiding as I'm not an official guide).

I know both my husband (who is yikes an official wva guide and I) stand
occasionally in the raft - It gives you a better line of vision when
approaching a rapid.

The Gauley doesn't "run" or "release" all the time - there is a "Gauley
Season" with occasional releases or runs after rainfall other times of
years - I could see how a guide who was coming down for the fall season
might not have run it since last year.

Taking trainees along is common practice - I couldn't tell from your
description if you were talking about a trainee or a girlfriend...

btw - I'm 46 and my husband is 50 - and lots of boaters are alot older -
but it may be that another sport is more comfortable for you.

sheila

In message , chapelle
writes
sounds like pretty normal to me - swimming from a raft isn't all that
much fun - i've had my share of swims in the last year (not when I was
captaining the raft - I won't say guiding as I'm not an official guide).
Snipped

Old Donald RIP used to say often after another particularly horrendous
swim that I had watched "Gosh that was exciting ! sometimes I think that
swimming the rapids is more exciting than paddling them you should try
it Dave!"

I declined as often as I could!
--
Dave Manby
Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at
http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk

Celia Oblinger wrote:

snip description of rafting trip

Does anyone have any comments about this scenario at all????

Your experience sounds very similar to my first [and decidedly *last*]
rafting trip in West Virginia.

A marginal guide with absolutely no regard for the safety of his crew,
the most cursory safety training, and no forewarning that half of the
rafts dump at the very first rapid. (I was informed about this last
piece of info *after* the trip, not before.)

I have no problem with experinenced boaters with the proper training and
experience shooting class V water. But rafts full of clueless tourists
don't belong there. (and neither do I)

The problem with the commercial rafting operations is that they treat
the tourists like so many sacks of potatoes. If the sacks bounce out of
the rafts, the guide rounds them up and hopes he can find them all and
that they're not too damaged. And if the sack gets hurt, well it's the
sack's fault not the guide's. What's amazing is that they don't kill
more people than they do.

Anyway, you can read my account of the trip (three years ago! wow.) at
http://www.google.com/groups?UTF-8&c2coff=1&selm=3B253A71.59F936A9%40mailandnews.co m

--
//-Walt
//
//

Walt

Typed in Message-ID:

I have no problem with experinenced boaters with the proper training and
experience shooting class V water. But rafts full of clueless tourists
don't belong there. (and neither do I)

However, the Lower Gauley is a Class III/IV
river at best, most of the river being Class III. It's pool and drop, and
although there are undercuts and other dangers, is relatively easy on swimmers.
The problem with the commercial rafting operations is that they treat
the tourists like so many sacks of potatoes. If the sacks bounce out of
the rafts, the guide rounds them up and hopes he can find them all and
that they're not too damaged. And

if the sack gets hurt, well it's the
sack's fault not the guide's. What's amazing is that they don't kill
more people than they do.

How about the problem being that the average raft customer treats the river as
an amusement park ride and doesn't pay any attention to safety or instructions.

I don't want to totally defend the rafting industry, which has it's share of
problems, but a guide isn't any better than the crew he gets stuck with that
day. Arnold Swartznegger couldn't handle a 16' raft full of tourist that are
all air bracing and not getting a paddle in the water. Yet many passengers seem
to expect that from the guides.

We used to eat lunch at Dimple on the Lower Yough. I would predict which rafts
were going to have trouble with pretty amazing accuracy. After awhile, my
companions asked how I did it. It was pretty simple, you just watched how
effective a stroke the paddlers were taking.
If they were not paddling or using just the tip, banging each others paddles,
etc, it was a good bet that they would bang the Rock at Dimple, not know how to
high side and either flip or dump most of the people out of the raft.

In the immortal words of a young female guide on the Upper Ocoee as she
attempted to ferry to river left above Humongous when all of her "guest" just
stopped paddling, PADDLE!PADDLE!!PADDLE!!!
SYOTR
Larry C.

Larry Cable wrote:


How about the problem being that the average raft customer treats the river as
an amusement park ride and doesn't pay any attention to safety or instructions.

No argument there. The only thing I'd add is that the rafting companies
market it like it's an amusement park ride, so I can see where the
customers get that idea.

--
//-Walt
//
// http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif

Walt wrote:

Larry Cable wrote:

How about the problem being that the average raft customer treats the river as
an amusement park ride and doesn't pay any attention to safety or instructions.

No argument there. The only thing I'd add is that the rafting companies
market it like it's an amusement park ride, so I can see where the
customers get that idea.

--
//-Walt
//
// http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif

Another load of crap. How many safety talk-ups have you given?

JAM

J. A. M."

Typed in Message-ID:
References:

Another load of crap. How many safety talk-ups have you given?

JAM


who are you asking?

I've pushed rubber around since the 70's,
teach kayaking several times a year and I'm a SWR instructor, so I've given one
or two in my time.

Walt is correct, raft trips are often marketed as an amusement park ride. Just
go down to the Ocoee and see how they run the business there.


SYOTR
Larry C.