Russia seems like a threat to more than just me. Hopefully the Navy and I are wrong.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1I52CJ

On Sat, 05 May 2018 12:04:29 -0400, John H.
wrote:

Russia seems like a threat to more than just me. Hopefully the Navy and I are wrong.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1I52CJ

.... or it is just the military industrial complex feathering their
nest.
Harry is right about one thing. In a real war with the russians, our
surface fleet will last a few days. Zumwalt said that a couple decades
ago and it is still true.
We can certainly **** up some 3d worlders tho ;-)

On 5/5/2018 1:25 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 05 May 2018 12:04:29 -0400, John H.
wrote:

Russia seems like a threat to more than just me. Hopefully the Navy and I are wrong.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1I52CJ

... or it is just the military industrial complex feathering their
nest.
Harry is right about one thing. In a real war with the russians, our
surface fleet will last a few days. Zumwalt said that a couple decades
ago and it is still true.
We can certainly **** up some 3d worlders tho ;-)


I don't know how you know that unless it's a nuclear war and then all
bets are off for both sides.

We still hold a very significant technical advantage over Russian
naval capabilities. That said though, the Russians have demonstrated
a tenacity in past wars that few can match.

On Sat, 5 May 2018 13:41:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 5/5/2018 1:25 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 05 May 2018 12:04:29 -0400, John H.
wrote:

Russia seems like a threat to more than just me. Hopefully the Navy and I are wrong.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1I52CJ

... or it is just the military industrial complex feathering their
nest.
Harry is right about one thing. In a real war with the russians, our
surface fleet will last a few days. Zumwalt said that a couple decades
ago and it is still true.
We can certainly **** up some 3d worlders tho ;-)


I don't know how you know that unless it's a nuclear war and then all
bets are off for both sides.

We still hold a very significant technical advantage over Russian
naval capabilities. That said though, the Russians have demonstrated
a tenacity in past wars that few can match.


Naval surface vessels, particularly a flotilla like a CBG are easily
spotted and tracked. They don't really move that fast and they can be
targeted from pretty far away. I know we have capabilities but if
someone launches enough $50,000 missiles at you billion dollar
carrier, some will get through. Of course there are always the subs
too. I don't know how many submariners you knew but they all call
surface vessels "targets".
In a war with a super power, surface vessels are fighting the last
war.
I agree they are great for projecting power into the 3d world tho and
if that is what we think we need, go for it.

On Sat, 05 May 2018 15:18:11 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 5 May 2018 13:41:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 5/5/2018 1:25 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 05 May 2018 12:04:29 -0400, John H.
wrote:

Russia seems like a threat to more than just me. Hopefully the Navy and I are wrong.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1I52CJ

... or it is just the military industrial complex feathering their
nest.
Harry is right about one thing. In a real war with the russians, our
surface fleet will last a few days. Zumwalt said that a couple decades
ago and it is still true.
We can certainly **** up some 3d worlders tho ;-)


I don't know how you know that unless it's a nuclear war and then all
bets are off for both sides.

We still hold a very significant technical advantage over Russian
naval capabilities. That said though, the Russians have demonstrated
a tenacity in past wars that few can match.


Naval surface vessels, particularly a flotilla like a CBG are easily
spotted and tracked. They don't really move that fast and they can be
targeted from pretty far away. I know we have capabilities but if
someone launches enough $50,000 missiles at you billion dollar
carrier, some will get through. Of course there are always the subs
too. I don't know how many submariners you knew but they all call
surface vessels "targets".
In a war with a super power, surface vessels are fighting the last
war.
I agree they are great for projecting power into the 3d world tho and
if that is what we think we need, go for it.

Your cheap missiles will be fired from what - another flotilla?

On Sat, 05 May 2018 15:23:38 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Sat, 05 May 2018 15:18:11 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 5 May 2018 13:41:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 5/5/2018 1:25 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 05 May 2018 12:04:29 -0400, John H.
wrote:

Russia seems like a threat to more than just me. Hopefully the Navy and I are wrong.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1I52CJ

... or it is just the military industrial complex feathering their
nest.
Harry is right about one thing. In a real war with the russians, our
surface fleet will last a few days. Zumwalt said that a couple decades
ago and it is still true.
We can certainly **** up some 3d worlders tho ;-)


I don't know how you know that unless it's a nuclear war and then all
bets are off for both sides.

We still hold a very significant technical advantage over Russian
naval capabilities. That said though, the Russians have demonstrated
a tenacity in past wars that few can match.


Naval surface vessels, particularly a flotilla like a CBG are easily
spotted and tracked. They don't really move that fast and they can be
targeted from pretty far away. I know we have capabilities but if
someone launches enough $50,000 missiles at you billion dollar
carrier, some will get through. Of course there are always the subs
too. I don't know how many submariners you knew but they all call
surface vessels "targets".
In a war with a super power, surface vessels are fighting the last
war.
I agree they are great for projecting power into the 3d world tho and
if that is what we think we need, go for it.

Your cheap missiles will be fired from what - another flotilla?

subs

On Sat, 05 May 2018 15:35:34 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 05 May 2018 15:23:38 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Sat, 05 May 2018 15:18:11 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 5 May 2018 13:41:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 5/5/2018 1:25 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 05 May 2018 12:04:29 -0400, John H.
wrote:

Russia seems like a threat to more than just me. Hopefully the Navy and I are wrong.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1I52CJ

... or it is just the military industrial complex feathering their
nest.
Harry is right about one thing. In a real war with the russians, our
surface fleet will last a few days. Zumwalt said that a couple decades
ago and it is still true.
We can certainly **** up some 3d worlders tho ;-)


I don't know how you know that unless it's a nuclear war and then all
bets are off for both sides.

We still hold a very significant technical advantage over Russian
naval capabilities. That said though, the Russians have demonstrated
a tenacity in past wars that few can match.


Naval surface vessels, particularly a flotilla like a CBG are easily
spotted and tracked. They don't really move that fast and they can be
targeted from pretty far away. I know we have capabilities but if
someone launches enough $50,000 missiles at you billion dollar
carrier, some will get through. Of course there are always the subs
too. I don't know how many submariners you knew but they all call
surface vessels "targets".
In a war with a super power, surface vessels are fighting the last
war.
I agree they are great for projecting power into the 3d world tho and
if that is what we think we need, go for it.

Your cheap missiles will be fired from what - another flotilla?

subs

The big nuke guys will be sitting on the bottom somewhere. The attack guys might get off a missile
or two before they come under attack, assuming that hasn't already happened. We do have subs also,
you know.

John H. wrote:
On Sat, 05 May 2018 15:35:34 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 05 May 2018 15:23:38 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Sat, 05 May 2018 15:18:11 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 5 May 2018 13:41:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 5/5/2018 1:25 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 05 May 2018 12:04:29 -0400, John H.
wrote:

Russia seems like a threat to more than just me. Hopefully the Navy and I are wrong.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1I52CJ

... or it is just the military industrial complex feathering their
nest.
Harry is right about one thing. In a real war with the russians, our
surface fleet will last a few days. Zumwalt said that a couple decades
ago and it is still true.
We can certainly **** up some 3d worlders tho ;-)


I don't know how you know that unless it's a nuclear war and then all
bets are off for both sides.

We still hold a very significant technical advantage over Russian
naval capabilities. That said though, the Russians have demonstrated
a tenacity in past wars that few can match.


Naval surface vessels, particularly a flotilla like a CBG are easily
spotted and tracked. They don't really move that fast and they can be
targeted from pretty far away. I know we have capabilities but if
someone launches enough $50,000 missiles at you billion dollar
carrier, some will get through. Of course there are always the subs
too. I don't know how many submariners you knew but they all call
surface vessels "targets".
In a war with a super power, surface vessels are fighting the last
war.
I agree they are great for projecting power into the 3d world tho and
if that is what we think we need, go for it.

Your cheap missiles will be fired from what - another flotilla?

subs

The big nuke guys will be sitting on the bottom somewhere. The attack
guys might get off a missile
or two before they come under attack, assuming that hasn't already
happened. We do have subs also,
you know.


But if it takes 10 minutes to sink the sub, all their missiles will already
be on the way.

On Sat, 05 May 2018 15:48:13 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Sat, 05 May 2018 15:35:34 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 05 May 2018 15:23:38 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Sat, 05 May 2018 15:18:11 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 5 May 2018 13:41:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 5/5/2018 1:25 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 05 May 2018 12:04:29 -0400, John H.
wrote:

Russia seems like a threat to more than just me. Hopefully the Navy and I are wrong.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1I52CJ

... or it is just the military industrial complex feathering their
nest.
Harry is right about one thing. In a real war with the russians, our
surface fleet will last a few days. Zumwalt said that a couple decades
ago and it is still true.
We can certainly **** up some 3d worlders tho ;-)


I don't know how you know that unless it's a nuclear war and then all
bets are off for both sides.

We still hold a very significant technical advantage over Russian
naval capabilities. That said though, the Russians have demonstrated
a tenacity in past wars that few can match.


Naval surface vessels, particularly a flotilla like a CBG are easily
spotted and tracked. They don't really move that fast and they can be
targeted from pretty far away. I know we have capabilities but if
someone launches enough $50,000 missiles at you billion dollar
carrier, some will get through. Of course there are always the subs
too. I don't know how many submariners you knew but they all call
surface vessels "targets".
In a war with a super power, surface vessels are fighting the last
war.
I agree they are great for projecting power into the 3d world tho and
if that is what we think we need, go for it.

Your cheap missiles will be fired from what - another flotilla?

subs

The big nuke guys will be sitting on the bottom somewhere. The attack guys might get off a missile
or two before they come under attack, assuming that hasn't already happened. We do have subs also,
you know.

These things could come down from airplanes or even from space.
We gave up that high ground during the Carter administration when we
put all of our money into his space truck.
The Germans underestimated the russian capacity to build weapons under
pressure and they lost the bet. The russians are not some backward
country without capacity
The bottom line is, should two broke countries really start up another
arms race?
Where do we get the money? Borrow it from China?

I bet you are not willing to eat a tax hike to build a bigger navy.
I am sure the country is not. We won't even tax ourselves enough to
pay our current military expenses. Every dime of the DoD budget along
with the rest of the discretionary spending is borrowed. We spend all
of the revenue on entitlements and interest on the debt.

On 5/5/2018 4:04 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 05 May 2018 15:48:13 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Sat, 05 May 2018 15:35:34 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 05 May 2018 15:23:38 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Sat, 05 May 2018 15:18:11 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 5 May 2018 13:41:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 5/5/2018 1:25 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 05 May 2018 12:04:29 -0400, John H.
wrote:

Russia seems like a threat to more than just me. Hopefully the Navy and I are wrong.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1I52CJ

... or it is just the military industrial complex feathering their
nest.
Harry is right about one thing. In a real war with the russians, our
surface fleet will last a few days. Zumwalt said that a couple decades
ago and it is still true.
We can certainly **** up some 3d worlders tho ;-)


I don't know how you know that unless it's a nuclear war and then all
bets are off for both sides.

We still hold a very significant technical advantage over Russian
naval capabilities. That said though, the Russians have demonstrated
a tenacity in past wars that few can match.


Naval surface vessels, particularly a flotilla like a CBG are easily
spotted and tracked. They don't really move that fast and they can be
targeted from pretty far away. I know we have capabilities but if
someone launches enough $50,000 missiles at you billion dollar
carrier, some will get through. Of course there are always the subs
too. I don't know how many submariners you knew but they all call
surface vessels "targets".
In a war with a super power, surface vessels are fighting the last
war.
I agree they are great for projecting power into the 3d world tho and
if that is what we think we need, go for it.

Your cheap missiles will be fired from what - another flotilla?

subs

The big nuke guys will be sitting on the bottom somewhere. The attack guys might get off a missile
or two before they come under attack, assuming that hasn't already happened. We do have subs also,
you know.

These things could come down from airplanes or even from space.
We gave up that high ground during the Carter administration when we
put all of our money into his space truck.
The Germans underestimated the russian capacity to build weapons under
pressure and they lost the bet. The russians are not some backward
country without capacity
The bottom line is, should two broke countries really start up another
arms race?
Where do we get the money? Borrow it from China?

I bet you are not willing to eat a tax hike to build a bigger navy.
I am sure the country is not. We won't even tax ourselves enough to
pay our current military expenses. Every dime of the DoD budget along
with the rest of the discretionary spending is borrowed. We spend all
of the revenue on entitlements and interest on the debt.



I certainly am not claiming that our surface ships are invincible but
a tremendous amount of investment has been made in defensive systems,
electronic and optical, that are designed to protect them.

A shot by an old fashioned, unguided missile probably has more of a
chance of getting through because it's unaffected by countermeasures
although even those would be detected early by the Aegis Combat Systems
that are installed in just about all of our surface ships. It's an
integrated system so one Aegis equipped DLG can assume control of the
anti-missile systems on all the ships in the battle group.