On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:20:24 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 12:14 PM, True North wrote:

Wow! I guess they were lucky...notice that robber wrestled the gun from the mother...good thing she held him off for as long as she did.


I think they both needed a bigger gun. The one the mother had looked
like a .38 revolver. The daughter had some kind of small pistol. The
hits took a while but eventually you can see the perp starting to
stumble around.

That was when the other one was supposed to get behind him and put one
in his ear. Don't think about it or hesitate, just do it.
This is the violence of action I fear most teachers will lack too.

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:24:57 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 12:00 PM, wrote:

I agree most teachers are not going to be good candidates
The janitor might be a better candidate for carrying the gun.

I do think the school systems with these "diversion" programs where
they fail to report criminal students are partially responsible. If
Parkland HS had reported the crimes Cruz committed in school, he would
have a record that would have prevented him from buying the gun.
The Sheriff also failed to act on credible reports of felonies.



Heh. I have to chuckle. You *are* discriminating against teachers.
What makes them any different than the janitor if they both have the
same level of training in the use of firearms?



Without resorting to stereotypes I will guess the janitor might not be
as genteel as the teachers.

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 16:18:27 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:15:49 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:56:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Have you seen this? Just happened the other day. Mother and daughter
are damn lucky neither were shot. Perp was arrested, taken to hospital
in critical condition:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiSl_zuSd4


Hadn't seen it. Agree that they were damn lucky. They both should have taken some lessons in
shooting also! It seemed like they hit the guy several times, I wonder what they were shooting.
Maybe .25 caliber?

Looks like .38s to me and I am not surprised they didn't hit this guy
anywhere serious. They used horrible tactics and their shooting style
was "unique" to say the least. Someone needed to remind them to aim.
Two armed people, in familiar surroundings should have trapped this
guy in a crossfire and fired from cover with a decent rest.

Looks like a small caliber sem-auto in the girl's hand.

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 16:19:10 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:18:12 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:52:34 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:50:28 -0500 (EST), justan wrote:

a smart, level headed properly trained teacher.

That is the rub.

It's being done. Look at the links Luddite's provided.

Not all teachers are untrainable, stupid, space cadets.

Most are also not retired combat vets.

I've known several, female, and meaner'n ****. I'd expect any of them would sign up for a pistol
class to defend kids.

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:44:53 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


I have one also. My only revolver. But after watching that video I am
thinking maybe a .357 revolver would be more appropriate.

Then again, it's not clear how many times the mother actually hit the
perp. He was out of the camera range when she was firing the most
shots. She hit him once in the arm looks like. The daughter clearly hit
him a couple of times as well.

A bad shot with a .357 is nowhere as good as a well placed shot with a
..22
A FBI instructor told me years ago, "shoot what you can hit with"
after I was criticized about my "puny" .380 by my DC cop buddy.
They were friends and I tagged along several times for some free
lessons. His advice was you might be able to throw away your first
shot but then you better be aiming because any shock value to the
other guy of being shot at is gone. In those days (66-67) the
philosophy was get a round down range as fast as you can, then fire a
well aimed double tap from the Weaver position and assess.
These days just about all I do at the range with a handgun is extend
and fire from high retention as fast and smooth as I can. I practice
at various angles to the target and standing in various stances. My
only goal at this point is instinctively being able to get off one or
two shots into a 6" circle at 7 yards without really thinking about
aiming. Basically like skeet shooting, you hit where you are looking.

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 16:23:33 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:24:57 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 12:00 PM, wrote:

I agree most teachers are not going to be good candidates
The janitor might be a better candidate for carrying the gun.

I do think the school systems with these "diversion" programs where
they fail to report criminal students are partially responsible. If
Parkland HS had reported the crimes Cruz committed in school, he would
have a record that would have prevented him from buying the gun.
The Sheriff also failed to act on credible reports of felonies.



Heh. I have to chuckle. You *are* discriminating against teachers.
What makes them any different than the janitor if they both have the
same level of training in the use of firearms?



Without resorting to stereotypes I will guess the janitor might not be
as genteel as the teachers.

Au contraire mon frère! You forget the 'mother' or 'father' instinct that would kick in when someone
starts messing with a teacher's kids. Our opinions of janitors and teachers differs tremendously in
this regard.

Wrote in message:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:08:41 -0500, Keyser Soze
wrote:



I suggested an approach:

The answer is to harden the entry to schools, watch closely who enters,
have bulletproof doors to classrooms, do what is possible to cut down on
the number and sorts of firearms available to the general public,
provide a higher level of counseling to students, raise the age limit
for obtaining a rifle, have better background checks, and treat the NRA
for what it is...a trade association that exists mostly to promote the
sale of firearms and ammo and lobbies for more and more firearms.

I really doubt new laws do anything but change how the bad guy gets
his gun., The country is awash with them.
The bullet proof door is not really necessary if the teacher gets the
kids out of the line if fire but you may want to armor the strike
plate a little better so it is hard to shoot out the lock. Commercial
products are already available for that.
The one you miss is get rid of the diversion programs that keep
violent kids out of jail. That may be exactly where they belong ...
like this ****er. If the school had pursued the charges they had, he
would not have passed the background check. If the Sheriff had
followed up on the complaints, he would have been in prison for 10
years, just on the aggravated assault with a gun.


You don't want to give the shrinks a shot at rehabilitating him?
--
x


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 2/26/18 3:45 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:08:41 -0500, Keyser Soze
wrote:



I suggested an approach:

The answer is to harden the entry to schools, watch closely who enters,
have bulletproof doors to classrooms, do what is possible to cut down on
the number and sorts of firearms available to the general public,
provide a higher level of counseling to students, raise the age limit
for obtaining a rifle, have better background checks, and treat the NRA
for what it is...a trade association that exists mostly to promote the
sale of firearms and ammo and lobbies for more and more firearms.

I really doubt new laws do anything but change how the bad guy gets
his gun., The country is awash with them.
The bullet proof door is not really necessary if the teacher gets the
kids out of the line if fire but you may want to armor the strike
plate a little better so it is hard to shoot out the lock. Commercial
products are already available for that.
The one you miss is get rid of the diversion programs that keep
violent kids out of jail. That may be exactly where they belong ...
like this ****er. If the school had pursued the charges they had, he
would not have passed the background check. If the Sheriff had
followed up on the complaints, he would have been in prison for 10
years, just on the aggravated assault with a gun.


Right, so 10 years later, he'd come out a much wilier, more capable
criminal. I'm not saying we shouldn't jail violent criminals, but what
that seems to produce with our ****ty, overcrowded prison system is more
hardened criminals. You have to wonder why we imprison more people than
anyone else, and a higher percentage of our population, too. It's just
another of our society's failures.

On 2/26/18 3:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/26/2018 2:08 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 2/26/18 12:44 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/26/2018 12:35 PM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:22:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 12:15 PM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:56:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 11:33 AM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:19:23 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:

On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 10:55:20 AM UTC-5, Keyser Soze
wrote:
On 2/26/18 10:30 AM, Bill wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
On 2/26/18 9:35 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/26/2018 9:23 AM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:06:01 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 8:55 AM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:31:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 8:16 AM, John H. wrote:

I am not surprised at the stance of the teachers'
unions when it
comes to arming teachers. It's an
anti-Trump stance, and I'd expect nothing more.

I am surprised at the number of teachers being quoted
who use 'too
many responsibilities already' as
a reason for not arming teachers. It's true that
teachers have a
load of responsibilities. But, when
the shooting starts only one takes precedence -
protecting kids. I
don't think any unwilling teacher
would be asked to carry a gun. And, the simple act of
carrying a
gun does not add significantly to
the other duties of a teacher.


Trump's proposal calls only for teachers who volunteer
to be
trained and
armed.Â* It's certainly not mandatory.

Not as well reported is that hundreds of teachers have
responded to a
gun course instructor in Ohio who offered his course
free to teachers.
He initially planned on about 50 respondents but last I
heard now has
over 300 who want to attend.

Even NPR and CNN have quietly reported that many
teachers are in favor
of being trained and armed.



If the 'anti-Trump' politics were taken out of the
equation, I think
we'd see a lot more approval of
the idea. I am surprised that NBC and, I'll take your
word for it,
CNN are reporting anything
positive about it.

The idea that carrying would overload a teacher with too
many
responsibilities already is just
bull****.


CNN:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/24/us/armed-teachers-states-trnd/index.html



NPR:

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/06/25/534230962/colorado-teachers-get-gun-training-as-first-responders





And, oh my gosh, a teacher's gun accidentally fired in a
restroom back
in 2014!

And comments like this from the NPR article, are simply
stupid: ""I
think all teachers would prefer
to be given the tools and resources to help our students,
as opposed
to being forced to shoot
them..."

It's that stupidity that the liberal news tends to quote.
More bull****.



What struck me was that both articles gloss over (in their
editorial
comments) the fact that teachers against being armed is not
universal.
Some *want* to be armed.Â* Don't they have the same rights?



Most Americans would prefer that firearms be kept out of
schools.


How did that work in parkland?


You think a teacher with a handgun would have stopped the
slaughter, eh?
Too funny. There would be another dead teacher.

You think *you* would be able to shoot a home invader.Â* Why do
you think you're so much better than everyone else?

Excellent point.

I suppose he thinks the home invader would be unarmed and as fat
as he is to make an easy target.



Have you seen this?Â* Just happened the other day. Mother and
daughter
are damn lucky neither were shot.Â* Perp was arrested, taken to
hospital
in critical condition:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiSl_zuSd4


Hadn't seen it. Agree that they were damn lucky. They both should
have taken some lessons in
shooting also! It seemed like they hit the guy several times, I
wonder what they were shooting.
Maybe .25 caliber?


I don't know. I think I recognized the mother's gun as being a .38
revolver but could be wrong.Â* Don't know what the daughter had.
I mentioned in a reply to Don that it took a while but eventually you
can see the robber starting to stumble due to being shot several
times.


Yeah, the mother's looked like a .38 Chief's Special, which my wife
loves to shoot by the way.


I have one also.Â* My only revolver.Â* But after watching that video I
am thinking maybe a .357 revolver would be more appropriate.

Then again, it's not clear how many times the mother actually hit the
perp.Â* He was out of the camera range when she was firing the most
shots. She hit him once in the arm looks like. The daughter clearly
hit him a couple of times as well.






At any distance within this house, meaning in any room, hallway or
adjacent rooms, I can fling a .357 Mag Hornady Critical Defense round
into the chest of a home invader, if he is facing me, or into the side
of his upper body if he is standing at an angle. I've practiced those
shots hundreds and hundreds of times, from distances of 3' to 25' on
paper targets, blocks of ballistic gel, and two liter sodapop bottles
and empty sodapop and beer cans. Double action or single action,
strong or weak handed. This is no great accomplishment. You can do
that the same way you get to Carnegie Hall: practice, practice, practice.

It is unlikely the home invader will continue what he came to do after
being hit by a .357 Mag round.

I'm sure a well-placed 9mm round will do almost as well, but with a
.357 Mag you have room for error.

As Greg pointed out the other day, the noise is horrendous.


I had a .357 Magnum revolver. It was the S&W 627 Performance Center
model.Â* It was impressive but once I got over the "new-ness" of it, I
sorta lost interest in it.Â* Just made a little larger hole in paper
targets with a lot more noise and greater expense per round. I've posted
the link to a YouTube video here in the past of shooting it at the range.

I am at the point where all I am interested in is something for home
defense in the improbable chance anyone tried to enter our house with
criminal intent and a small concealed carry pistol for the even rarer
times I carry .... which is only when we are going somewhere that could
represent a higher than normal risk.Â* Doesn't happen often.

The little .38 Special and the Sig 226 will serve those purposes. May
not put someone big down but they will catch his attention.
Still debating about getting rid of the Walther though.Â* It's a very
nice, accurate handgun, but a little too big for concealed carry purposes.

Guns don't fascinate me but as we get older we may need a fighting
chance if anything bad happens.




I had a Sig 226 X-5 for a while. Sold it to get a CZ competition pistol.
Nothing wrong with the Sig, but the CZ was more accurate and cycled faster.

What Walther do you have?

On 2/26/2018 3:54 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:28:02 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:55:16 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote:


You think a teacher with a handgun would have stopped the slaughter, eh?
Too funny. There would be another dead teacher.

A couple rounds in his general direction may have had him leaving the school. Better that the kids
got killed?

If the shots miss, Harry is probably right. I would not want to be
face to face with a AR and only have a pistol. OTOH if you just come
up behind this guy and put one in the back of his head, you win that
fight. To that end, someone with tactical skills should identify the
best places to wait and have your armed people know where the best one
is based on where the shots are coming from.
Maybe we can scour the 7-11s and find some old Vietcong guys. They
were pretty good at ambushing guys with ARs ;-)



Question:

If you come face to face with a guy with an AR-15 intent on killing you
or anyone around you, would you rather be armed or disarmed?

I'd take armed. If I miss I might be dead.
If I am not armed, I am certainly dead.