On 2/26/2018 4:00 PM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:37:57 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/26/2018 2:08 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 2/26/18 12:44 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/26/2018 12:35 PM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:22:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 12:15 PM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:56:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 11:33 AM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:19:23 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:

On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 10:55:20 AM UTC-5, Keyser Soze
wrote:
On 2/26/18 10:30 AM, Bill wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
On 2/26/18 9:35 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/26/2018 9:23 AM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:06:01 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 8:55 AM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:31:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 8:16 AM, John H. wrote:

I am not surprised at the stance of the teachers'
unions when it
comes to arming teachers. It's an
anti-Trump stance, and I'd expect nothing more.

I am surprised at the number of teachers being quoted
who use 'too
many responsibilities already' as
a reason for not arming teachers. It's true that
teachers have a
load of responsibilities. But, when
the shooting starts only one takes precedence -
protecting kids. I
don't think any unwilling teacher
would be asked to carry a gun. And, the simple act of
carrying a
gun does not add significantly to
the other duties of a teacher.


Trump's proposal calls only for teachers who volunteer
to be
trained and
armed.Â* It's certainly not mandatory.

Not as well reported is that hundreds of teachers have
responded to a
gun course instructor in Ohio who offered his course
free to teachers.
He initially planned on about 50 respondents but last I
heard now has
over 300 who want to attend.

Even NPR and CNN have quietly reported that many
teachers are in favor
of being trained and armed.



If the 'anti-Trump' politics were taken out of the
equation, I think
we'd see a lot more approval of
the idea. I am surprised that NBC and, I'll take your
word for it,
CNN are reporting anything
positive about it.

The idea that carrying would overload a teacher with too
many
responsibilities already is just
bull****.


CNN:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/24/us/armed-teachers-states-trnd/index.html



NPR:

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/06/25/534230962/colorado-teachers-get-gun-training-as-first-responders





And, oh my gosh, a teacher's gun accidentally fired in a
restroom back
in 2014!

And comments like this from the NPR article, are simply
stupid: ""I
think all teachers would prefer
to be given the tools and resources to help our students,
as opposed
to being forced to shoot
them..."

It's that stupidity that the liberal news tends to quote.
More bull****.



What struck me was that both articles gloss over (in their
editorial
comments) the fact that teachers against being armed is not
universal.
Some *want* to be armed.Â* Don't they have the same rights?



Most Americans would prefer that firearms be kept out of
schools.


How did that work in parkland?


You think a teacher with a handgun would have stopped the
slaughter, eh?
Too funny. There would be another dead teacher.

You think *you* would be able to shoot a home invader.Â* Why do
you think you're so much better than everyone else?

Excellent point.

I suppose he thinks the home invader would be unarmed and as fat
as he is to make an easy target.



Have you seen this?Â* Just happened the other day. Mother and daughter
are damn lucky neither were shot.Â* Perp was arrested, taken to
hospital
in critical condition:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiSl_zuSd4


Hadn't seen it. Agree that they were damn lucky. They both should
have taken some lessons in
shooting also! It seemed like they hit the guy several times, I
wonder what they were shooting.
Maybe .25 caliber?


I don't know. I think I recognized the mother's gun as being a .38
revolver but could be wrong.Â* Don't know what the daughter had.
I mentioned in a reply to Don that it took a while but eventually you
can see the robber starting to stumble due to being shot several times.


Yeah, the mother's looked like a .38 Chief's Special, which my wife
loves to shoot by the way.


I have one also.Â* My only revolver.Â* But after watching that video I
am thinking maybe a .357 revolver would be more appropriate.

Then again, it's not clear how many times the mother actually hit the
perp.Â* He was out of the camera range when she was firing the most
shots. She hit him once in the arm looks like. The daughter clearly
hit him a couple of times as well.






At any distance within this house, meaning in any room, hallway or
adjacent rooms, I can fling a .357 Mag Hornady Critical Defense round
into the chest of a home invader, if he is facing me, or into the side
of his upper body if he is standing at an angle. I've practiced those
shots hundreds and hundreds of times, from distances of 3' to 25' on
paper targets, blocks of ballistic gel, and two liter sodapop bottles
and empty sodapop and beer cans. Double action or single action, strong
or weak handed. This is no great accomplishment. You can do that the
same way you get to Carnegie Hall: practice, practice, practice.

It is unlikely the home invader will continue what he came to do after
being hit by a .357 Mag round.

I'm sure a well-placed 9mm round will do almost as well, but with a .357
Mag you have room for error.

As Greg pointed out the other day, the noise is horrendous.


I had a .357 Magnum revolver. It was the S&W 627 Performance Center
model. It was impressive but once I got over the "new-ness" of it, I
sorta lost interest in it. Just made a little larger hole in paper
targets with a lot more noise and greater expense per round. I've posted
the link to a YouTube video here in the past of shooting it at the range.

I am at the point where all I am interested in is something for home
defense in the improbable chance anyone tried to enter our house with
criminal intent and a small concealed carry pistol for the even rarer
times I carry .... which is only when we are going somewhere that could
represent a higher than normal risk. Doesn't happen often.

The little .38 Special and the Sig 226 will serve those purposes. May
not put someone big down but they will catch his attention.
Still debating about getting rid of the Walther though. It's a very
nice, accurate handgun, but a little too big for concealed carry purposes.

Guns don't fascinate me but as we get older we may need a fighting
chance if anything bad happens.


I didn't know you had a Sig 226. One of my retired-cop brothers told me it was his favorite weapon.
That was a few years back, but it's what prompted me to my mine. I love it. I can shoot better with
it than any other handgun.

I took some friends from the Navy Band to our local range. One of them had a Glock, and he'd done
quite a bit of shooting. At seven yards he was getting a 6-7" spread. I let him shoot the 226 and
his spread dropped to 3-4". He couldn't believe it.



I don't have a 226. I screwed up trying to remember the model from
memory. For some reason "226" came up.

I have the little guy ... the Sig P238. It's my "carry".
Looks just like this one:

https://topgunsupply.r.worldssl.net/images/P/p238-rosewood-detail-l.jpg

On 2/26/18 5:04 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/26/2018 3:54 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:28:02 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:55:16 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote:


You think a teacher with a handgun would have stopped the slaughter,
eh?
Too funny. There would be another dead teacher.

A couple rounds in his general direction may have had him leaving the
school. Better that the kids
got killed?

If the shots miss, Harry is probably right. I would not want to be
face to face with a AR and only have a pistol. OTOH if you just come
up behind this guy and put one in the back of his head, you win that
fight. To that end, someone with tactical skills should identify the
best places to wait and have your armed people know where the best one
is based on where the shots are coming from.
Maybe we can scour the 7-11s and find some old Vietcong guys. They
were pretty good at ambushing guys with ARsÂ* ;-)



Question:

If you come face to face with a guy with an AR-15 intent on killing you
or anyone around you, would you rather be armed or disarmed?

I'd take armed.Â* If I miss I might be dead.
If I am not armed, I am certainly dead.



I dunno. I am reminded of many shootouts with cops in which supposedly
well-trained officers fire dozens or hundreds of shots, still might not
hit their target(s), and spray bullets everywhere. Now, imagine that
sort of shootout at a school filled with hundreds or even thousands of
students, and the "good guy" doing the shooting is a teacher with maybe
one-twentieth of the training of a cop. Now, imagine the autopsies...and
the resulting lawsuits.

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:37:57 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:



I had a .357 Magnum revolver. It was the S&W 627 Performance Center
model. It was impressive but once I got over the "new-ness" of it, I
sorta lost interest in it. Just made a little larger hole in paper
targets with a lot more noise and greater expense per round. I've posted
the link to a YouTube video here in the past of shooting it at the range.

I am at the point where all I am interested in is something for home
defense in the improbable chance anyone tried to enter our house with
criminal intent and a small concealed carry pistol for the even rarer
times I carry .... which is only when we are going somewhere that could
represent a higher than normal risk. Doesn't happen often.

The little .38 Special and the Sig 226 will serve those purposes. May
not put someone big down but they will catch his attention.
Still debating about getting rid of the Walther though. It's a very
nice, accurate handgun, but a little too big for concealed carry purposes.

Guns don't fascinate me but as we get older we may need a fighting
chance if anything bad happens.


In the house I am showing up with a .45 but if it is just the 2 of us,
I will hole up in the bedroom, call 911 and drop anyone who comes
through the door.
It gets a lot more complicated if the kids are here.
I do think the dog helps. I can let the dog investigate bumps in the
night. I only hope he lives through it.

On 2/26/2018 4:18 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:15:49 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:56:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Have you seen this? Just happened the other day. Mother and daughter
are damn lucky neither were shot. Perp was arrested, taken to hospital
in critical condition:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiSl_zuSd4


Hadn't seen it. Agree that they were damn lucky. They both should have taken some lessons in
shooting also! It seemed like they hit the guy several times, I wonder what they were shooting.
Maybe .25 caliber?

Looks like .38s to me and I am not surprised they didn't hit this guy
anywhere serious. They used horrible tactics and their shooting style
was "unique" to say the least. Someone needed to remind them to aim.
Two armed people, in familiar surroundings should have trapped this
guy in a crossfire and fired from cover with a decent rest.



Yeah Greg, they should have acted more like Navy Seals, huh?

They accomplished their objective. They are not hurt and the perp was
escorted to the hospital by the police in critical condition. Good for
them.

One thing I didn't understand in that video though ... when he first
came around the counter banishing his gun the first thing the daughter
did was reach for the mouse on the counter while looking at the computer
screen. What was that all about?

On 2/26/2018 4:19 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:18:12 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:52:34 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:50:28 -0500 (EST), justan wrote:

a smart, level headed properly trained teacher.

That is the rub.

It's being done. Look at the links Luddite's provided.

Not all teachers are untrainable, stupid, space cadets.


Most are also not retired combat vets.


If that's the prerequisite for self-defense with a gun we're all in deep
doo-doo.

Less than 1 percent (current number is 0.5%) of population currently
serves in the military and it's been that way for about 20 years.

Of those who serve, 80 percent have no direct combat experience.

On 2/26/2018 4:22 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:20:24 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 12:14 PM, True North wrote:

Wow! I guess they were lucky...notice that robber wrestled the gun from the mother...good thing she held him off for as long as she did.


I think they both needed a bigger gun. The one the mother had looked
like a .38 revolver. The daughter had some kind of small pistol. The
hits took a while but eventually you can see the perp starting to
stumble around.

That was when the other one was supposed to get behind him and put one
in his ear. Don't think about it or hesitate, just do it.
This is the violence of action I fear most teachers will lack too.


I am sure the daughter and her mother will heed your instruction next
time if they can stop shaking from this experience. Geeze Greg, cut
them some slack. They accomplished their goal. They're alive.

On 2/26/2018 4:23 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:24:57 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 12:00 PM, wrote:

I agree most teachers are not going to be good candidates
The janitor might be a better candidate for carrying the gun.

I do think the school systems with these "diversion" programs where
they fail to report criminal students are partially responsible. If
Parkland HS had reported the crimes Cruz committed in school, he would
have a record that would have prevented him from buying the gun.
The Sheriff also failed to act on credible reports of felonies.



Heh. I have to chuckle. You *are* discriminating against teachers.
What makes them any different than the janitor if they both have the
same level of training in the use of firearms?



Without resorting to stereotypes I will guess the janitor might not be
as genteel as the teachers.



LOL

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 17:11:56 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/26/2018 4:00 PM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:37:57 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/26/2018 2:08 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 2/26/18 12:44 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/26/2018 12:35 PM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:22:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 12:15 PM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:56:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 11:33 AM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:19:23 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:

On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 10:55:20 AM UTC-5, Keyser Soze
wrote:
On 2/26/18 10:30 AM, Bill wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
On 2/26/18 9:35 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/26/2018 9:23 AM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:06:01 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 8:55 AM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:31:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 8:16 AM, John H. wrote:

I am not surprised at the stance of the teachers'
unions when it
comes to arming teachers. It's an
anti-Trump stance, and I'd expect nothing more.

I am surprised at the number of teachers being quoted
who use 'too
many responsibilities already' as
a reason for not arming teachers. It's true that
teachers have a
load of responsibilities. But, when
the shooting starts only one takes precedence -
protecting kids. I
don't think any unwilling teacher
would be asked to carry a gun. And, the simple act of
carrying a
gun does not add significantly to
the other duties of a teacher.


Trump's proposal calls only for teachers who volunteer
to be
trained and
armed.* It's certainly not mandatory.

Not as well reported is that hundreds of teachers have
responded to a
gun course instructor in Ohio who offered his course
free to teachers.
He initially planned on about 50 respondents but last I
heard now has
over 300 who want to attend.

Even NPR and CNN have quietly reported that many
teachers are in favor
of being trained and armed.



If the 'anti-Trump' politics were taken out of the
equation, I think
we'd see a lot more approval of
the idea. I am surprised that NBC and, I'll take your
word for it,
CNN are reporting anything
positive about it.

The idea that carrying would overload a teacher with too
many
responsibilities already is just
bull****.


CNN:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/24/us/armed-teachers-states-trnd/index.html



NPR:

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/06/25/534230962/colorado-teachers-get-gun-training-as-first-responders





And, oh my gosh, a teacher's gun accidentally fired in a
restroom back
in 2014!

And comments like this from the NPR article, are simply
stupid: ""I
think all teachers would prefer
to be given the tools and resources to help our students,
as opposed
to being forced to shoot
them..."

It's that stupidity that the liberal news tends to quote.
More bull****.



What struck me was that both articles gloss over (in their
editorial
comments) the fact that teachers against being armed is not
universal.
Some *want* to be armed.* Don't they have the same rights?



Most Americans would prefer that firearms be kept out of
schools.


How did that work in parkland?


You think a teacher with a handgun would have stopped the
slaughter, eh?
Too funny. There would be another dead teacher.

You think *you* would be able to shoot a home invader.* Why do
you think you're so much better than everyone else?

Excellent point.

I suppose he thinks the home invader would be unarmed and as fat
as he is to make an easy target.



Have you seen this?* Just happened the other day. Mother and daughter
are damn lucky neither were shot.* Perp was arrested, taken to
hospital
in critical condition:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiSl_zuSd4


Hadn't seen it. Agree that they were damn lucky. They both should
have taken some lessons in
shooting also! It seemed like they hit the guy several times, I
wonder what they were shooting.
Maybe .25 caliber?


I don't know. I think I recognized the mother's gun as being a .38
revolver but could be wrong.* Don't know what the daughter had.
I mentioned in a reply to Don that it took a while but eventually you
can see the robber starting to stumble due to being shot several times.


Yeah, the mother's looked like a .38 Chief's Special, which my wife
loves to shoot by the way.


I have one also.* My only revolver.* But after watching that video I
am thinking maybe a .357 revolver would be more appropriate.

Then again, it's not clear how many times the mother actually hit the
perp.* He was out of the camera range when she was firing the most
shots. She hit him once in the arm looks like. The daughter clearly
hit him a couple of times as well.






At any distance within this house, meaning in any room, hallway or
adjacent rooms, I can fling a .357 Mag Hornady Critical Defense round
into the chest of a home invader, if he is facing me, or into the side
of his upper body if he is standing at an angle. I've practiced those
shots hundreds and hundreds of times, from distances of 3' to 25' on
paper targets, blocks of ballistic gel, and two liter sodapop bottles
and empty sodapop and beer cans. Double action or single action, strong
or weak handed. This is no great accomplishment. You can do that the
same way you get to Carnegie Hall: practice, practice, practice.

It is unlikely the home invader will continue what he came to do after
being hit by a .357 Mag round.

I'm sure a well-placed 9mm round will do almost as well, but with a .357
Mag you have room for error.

As Greg pointed out the other day, the noise is horrendous.


I had a .357 Magnum revolver. It was the S&W 627 Performance Center
model. It was impressive but once I got over the "new-ness" of it, I
sorta lost interest in it. Just made a little larger hole in paper
targets with a lot more noise and greater expense per round. I've posted
the link to a YouTube video here in the past of shooting it at the range.

I am at the point where all I am interested in is something for home
defense in the improbable chance anyone tried to enter our house with
criminal intent and a small concealed carry pistol for the even rarer
times I carry .... which is only when we are going somewhere that could
represent a higher than normal risk. Doesn't happen often.

The little .38 Special and the Sig 226 will serve those purposes. May
not put someone big down but they will catch his attention.
Still debating about getting rid of the Walther though. It's a very
nice, accurate handgun, but a little too big for concealed carry purposes.

Guns don't fascinate me but as we get older we may need a fighting
chance if anything bad happens.


I didn't know you had a Sig 226. One of my retired-cop brothers told me it was his favorite weapon.
That was a few years back, but it's what prompted me to my mine. I love it. I can shoot better with
it than any other handgun.

I took some friends from the Navy Band to our local range. One of them had a Glock, and he'd done
quite a bit of shooting. At seven yards he was getting a 6-7" spread. I let him shoot the 226 and
his spread dropped to 3-4". He couldn't believe it.



I don't have a 226. I screwed up trying to remember the model from
memory. For some reason "226" came up.

I have the little guy ... the Sig P238. It's my "carry".
Looks just like this one:

https://topgunsupply.r.worldssl.net/images/P/p238-rosewood-detail-l.jpg

Yeah, I remember the P238. I've got the little P938 for a carry.

On 2/26/2018 4:36 PM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 16:23:33 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:24:57 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 12:00 PM, wrote:

I agree most teachers are not going to be good candidates
The janitor might be a better candidate for carrying the gun.

I do think the school systems with these "diversion" programs where
they fail to report criminal students are partially responsible. If
Parkland HS had reported the crimes Cruz committed in school, he would
have a record that would have prevented him from buying the gun.
The Sheriff also failed to act on credible reports of felonies.



Heh. I have to chuckle. You *are* discriminating against teachers.
What makes them any different than the janitor if they both have the
same level of training in the use of firearms?



Without resorting to stereotypes I will guess the janitor might not be
as genteel as the teachers.


Au contraire mon frère! You forget the 'mother' or 'father' instinct that would kick in when someone
starts messing with a teacher's kids. Our opinions of janitors and teachers differs tremendously in
this regard.


I agree. A good teacher has a bit of a maternal/paternal sense of
commitment to the kids in their charge, especially for very young kids
like those killed at Sandy Hook.

The janitor with nothing to lose except his own life might be the first
to exit stage left.

Then again, I have heard of janitors that have a deep affection for kids
in their schools and would probably lay down their own life to save a
kid or two like the football coach in Florida. He wasn't a teacher.
He was a coach and unarmed security guard.

Bottom line is .. we are all people and, until faced with the challenge,
nobody really knows how they would react. Training at the range or
hunting groundhogs just isn't the same, IMO.

On 2/26/2018 4:36 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:44:53 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


I have one also. My only revolver. But after watching that video I am
thinking maybe a .357 revolver would be more appropriate.

Then again, it's not clear how many times the mother actually hit the
perp. He was out of the camera range when she was firing the most
shots. She hit him once in the arm looks like. The daughter clearly hit
him a couple of times as well.

A bad shot with a .357 is nowhere as good as a well placed shot with a
.22
A FBI instructor told me years ago, "shoot what you can hit with"
after I was criticized about my "puny" .380 by my DC cop buddy.
They were friends and I tagged along several times for some free
lessons. His advice was you might be able to throw away your first
shot but then you better be aiming because any shock value to the
other guy of being shot at is gone. In those days (66-67) the
philosophy was get a round down range as fast as you can, then fire a
well aimed double tap from the Weaver position and assess.
These days just about all I do at the range with a handgun is extend
and fire from high retention as fast and smooth as I can. I practice
at various angles to the target and standing in various stances. My
only goal at this point is instinctively being able to get off one or
two shots into a 6" circle at 7 yards without really thinking about
aiming. Basically like skeet shooting, you hit where you are looking.




Hard to remember all this good advice with a guy waving a gun in your
face though. I can see it now:

"Oh **** !! That guy is going to shoot me! I have about 2 seconds to
defend myself. Now, what was it that guy on rec.boats say to do? Oh
yeah, get behind him and shoot him in the ear. Excuse me, sir, would you
mind turning around so I can shove this gun barrel in your ear?

Nice and interesting to read but unless you are being challenged every
day and practicing defense everyday your are more likely to just react
instinctively as well as you can. Even cops don't get shot at often
considering the years they serve, despite what we hear and see in the news.