On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 02:20:44 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/6/2018 1:21 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 16:32:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/5/2018 2:06 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 12:28:51 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/5/2018 11:37 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 05:34:25 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I agree the harmonic problem is just on wye but that is the most
common configuration, 208 or 480.
I think the problem first showed up on 480/277 wye systems where they
had a building full of 277v electronic ballasts.
Then it started showing up in those 208 systems that were feeding 120v
lines in cubicles through the internal wiring with a 5 wire feeder as
PCs started replacing terminals with ferro power supplies and space
heaters.

Delta is always funny stuff, depending on where or even if you land
the ground. Corner grounded is probably the easiest to confuse the
novice. It will look just like single phase until you get your meter
out. (2 pole breakers, white wires etc)


Not familiar with that. The majority of the systems we built were
designed to run on 480v, 3 phase. All the main breakers, fused
disconnects, motor starters, etc. were three pole. Ground was run
separately. We used a dedicated control transformer in each power
cabinet to generate whatever the low voltage control wiring was ... 120v
in the early days but later 24 volt. IIRC, the control transformer on
the 120v systems was a 480v/240v step down with a center tap, providing
a neutral.




Did you ground your 480 delta at all? If so where did the ground land?

I understand your control circuit voltage can be 120 if you want. That
is just a class 1 control circuit. Most people are familiar with class
2 but they are both controlled by the same article in the NEC.
Class 1 just looks like regular line voltage circuits because it is
not voltage or current limited like class 2 and 3.
The center tapped 240 delta is commonly called "red leg" or "wild
leg"because the corner between the center tapped windings will be 208v
to ground. "Red" is a misnomer tho because the NEC requires the wire
to be orange. That is very common in places where they want discount 3
phase and have a significant amount of single phase loads like those
small industrial bays. The PoCo can do it with 2 transformers,
generally the wild leg will be on a much smaller one. One "winding" is
actually open. hence another name, "Delta Veep".

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/red%...ansformers.jpg

99.99% of the time, if you see 3 transformers on the pole, it will be
wye. but I have seen one place in Key West where they had red leg
delta with 3 transformers. The only tip off was one was bigger than
the other two and it was confirmed by analysing the wiring.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Tran...%20_breath.jpg

Yeah my wife thinks I am crazy too, taking pictures of transformers.



Ground for the 480 Delta system service was run separately back to the
physical (metallic) ground at the panel, usually via a 6 awg wire.
Ground was not taken from any of the legs of the 3 phase Delta the way
you have described.

Many of the systems we built also had a RFI ground consisting of wide,
copper flashing to two, 8' copper rods driven through the floor and into
the ground. The rods were about 10-15 feet apart and we tried to get
close to 1 ohm resistance between them. This often required a copper
sulfate solution to be poured into the rod holes.

The reason for the exotic grounding had nothing to do with safety. Many
of the systems utilized a RF transmitter running at 13 Mhz. The load
for the RF transmitter was a plasma (ionized partial pressure gas)
generated within the vacuum chamber.

We had specially designed "matchboxes" that allowed load impedance
matching of the 50 ohm transmitter output to the very low impedance of
the plasma. Other systems used an electron beam operating at 10,000
volts. A stream of electrons are emitted from a filament and focused
magnetically onto various metals or dielectrics that were vaporized by
the beam and deposited on optics in very carefully controlled thicknesses.

Anyway, there were often some arcs and sparks within the chamber with
either of these deposition methods that would raise hell with some of
the very sensitive measurement instruments. The elaborate grounding,
using a wide conductor (flashing) is much better at RF and EMI quenching
of the arcs. A simple, round ground wire has too much inductive
reactance. It's only purpose on these systems was to serve as a safety
ground. Sometimes we'd have to chase our tail for a while however
because the use of both grounding systems sometimes generated a ground
loop which only magnified the RFI problem.

So you were running ungrounded delta. That is fairly rare and usually
only for systems that are very intolerant of faults, like a glass
plant where a power failure makes the whole place pretty much trash.
I assume you had ground fault indicators since the first ground fault
is "free". I have never actually seen ungrounded delta here. The other
option is impedance grounding that grounds the system via a resistor,
just to stabilize the voltage, not to provide any fault protection.

You are right that there is no exception that allows the non current
carrying parts of the system to be ungrounded. They are really trying
to change that terminology to "bonded" to avoid confusion with the
"grounded conductor" that we normally call the neutral and the
"grounding electrode" that is your physical connection with earth.
Article 250 may be the most misunderstood article in the whole NEC,
hence the one I spent the most time studying. They are trying to
redefine some of the terms to make it easier to understand because
"ground" is such an all encompassing word that it misses the intent
about half the time and when you actually start testing, it isn't even
the same voltage from one place to another when you actually test with
stakes in the dirt.




I don't think the configuration I described is all that rare. In fact
it's pretty common for industrial machine tool wiring for equipment that
requires significant power. There are literally thousands of systems
similar to the ones my company built, designed manufactured and
installed by other companies in the USA and world wide, going back to
the 1950's.


I don't know. Like I said I have never seen ungrounded delta but I
know the guys to ask.
I am still wondering if it was impedance grounded or corner grounded.
They do not need to bring the grounded conductor out to distribution
equipment, in fact we never did in computer rooms. It stopped at the
service disconnect.

We (and other US manufactures) follow(ed) the National Electric Code
however there are some things that aren't even acknowledged, covered or
would not be allowed (like the electron beam source application). Our
installation crew got into a ****ing contest with a union electrician
once regarding how the 10,000 volt leads to the feedthroughs were wired
below the chamber baseplate. There is nothing in the code book that
even comes close to covering anything like this. We had access to them
protected by panel interlocks, vacuum interlocks and then the leads
themselves are within plexiglass enclosures with "Danger - High Voltage"
stickers on them. I think it scared the electrician and he raised an
issue that temporarily shut down the installation of the system. It was
resolved by the customer's facility engineering and was approved.

There's a clause for situations like that in the code book that goes
something like: "When the machine requirements and the code conflict,
the machine requirements will govern".

Every one of our technical proposals had that clause in it, along with
pertinent ASME codes for pressure vessels, even though a vacuum chamber
is not really a pressure vessel. During the many years I was in that
industry there were no ASME codes for vacuum vessels. That's why two 8
inch flanges on some vacuum piping would be connected with 8, 3/4 inch
bolts with nuts. Kinda overkill for vacuum piping but that's what the
ASME code calls for.

Once you get off into "equipment" the NEC is largely silent. For IBM,
it stopped at the line plug although in places like Chicago the IBEW
still wanted a taste of the labor (or all of it).


We built and installed a custom system for the deposition of hard carbon
(diamond-like coating) onto M1 tank infrared windows. It used a RF
power supply as part of the process. It was installed at a company a
couple of miles or so from O'Hare Airport and the local inspector
demanded that it needed to be CE Certified which was news to me. He
inspected all the components we had purchased and used for it ... down
to the small air actuator valves but when he asked what it was used for
he just signed off on the whole thing.


That is a man without a clue. "CE" is a european certification with
very little to no importance in the US. The NEC says listed by a
Nationally Recognized Testing Lab and OSHA does not recognize CE is
lab testing (yes it is OSHA that manages the NRTL program)
CE is actually done by the manufacturers, not a 3d party lab. It
really just says the product meets EU standards for trade within that
body.
There are European NRTLs, TUV probably being the biggest.
AHJs can require listing of equipment but that process is going to be
spotty at best since most inspectors do not really have a good
understanding of how things get listed. If you can show them a U/L
label somewhere, they usually go back to looking at things they
understand.
Legally, if you change the plug on something, (or change any other
part for something different) it is not listed anymore. That is one
reason why computers have the IEC 320 C13/C14 on the inputs and then
you can get an assortment of listed line cords available to you.

On 1/6/2018 12:19 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 02:20:44 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/6/2018 1:21 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 16:32:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/5/2018 2:06 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 12:28:51 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/5/2018 11:37 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 05:34:25 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I agree the harmonic problem is just on wye but that is the most
common configuration, 208 or 480.
I think the problem first showed up on 480/277 wye systems where they
had a building full of 277v electronic ballasts.
Then it started showing up in those 208 systems that were feeding 120v
lines in cubicles through the internal wiring with a 5 wire feeder as
PCs started replacing terminals with ferro power supplies and space
heaters.

Delta is always funny stuff, depending on where or even if you land
the ground. Corner grounded is probably the easiest to confuse the
novice. It will look just like single phase until you get your meter
out. (2 pole breakers, white wires etc)


Not familiar with that. The majority of the systems we built were
designed to run on 480v, 3 phase. All the main breakers, fused
disconnects, motor starters, etc. were three pole. Ground was run
separately. We used a dedicated control transformer in each power
cabinet to generate whatever the low voltage control wiring was ... 120v
in the early days but later 24 volt. IIRC, the control transformer on
the 120v systems was a 480v/240v step down with a center tap, providing
a neutral.




Did you ground your 480 delta at all? If so where did the ground land?

I understand your control circuit voltage can be 120 if you want. That
is just a class 1 control circuit. Most people are familiar with class
2 but they are both controlled by the same article in the NEC.
Class 1 just looks like regular line voltage circuits because it is
not voltage or current limited like class 2 and 3.
The center tapped 240 delta is commonly called "red leg" or "wild
leg"because the corner between the center tapped windings will be 208v
to ground. "Red" is a misnomer tho because the NEC requires the wire
to be orange. That is very common in places where they want discount 3
phase and have a significant amount of single phase loads like those
small industrial bays. The PoCo can do it with 2 transformers,
generally the wild leg will be on a much smaller one. One "winding" is
actually open. hence another name, "Delta Veep".

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/red%...ansformers.jpg

99.99% of the time, if you see 3 transformers on the pole, it will be
wye. but I have seen one place in Key West where they had red leg
delta with 3 transformers. The only tip off was one was bigger than
the other two and it was confirmed by analysing the wiring.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Tran...%20_breath.jpg

Yeah my wife thinks I am crazy too, taking pictures of transformers.



Ground for the 480 Delta system service was run separately back to the
physical (metallic) ground at the panel, usually via a 6 awg wire.
Ground was not taken from any of the legs of the 3 phase Delta the way
you have described.

Many of the systems we built also had a RFI ground consisting of wide,
copper flashing to two, 8' copper rods driven through the floor and into
the ground. The rods were about 10-15 feet apart and we tried to get
close to 1 ohm resistance between them. This often required a copper
sulfate solution to be poured into the rod holes.

The reason for the exotic grounding had nothing to do with safety. Many
of the systems utilized a RF transmitter running at 13 Mhz. The load
for the RF transmitter was a plasma (ionized partial pressure gas)
generated within the vacuum chamber.

We had specially designed "matchboxes" that allowed load impedance
matching of the 50 ohm transmitter output to the very low impedance of
the plasma. Other systems used an electron beam operating at 10,000
volts. A stream of electrons are emitted from a filament and focused
magnetically onto various metals or dielectrics that were vaporized by
the beam and deposited on optics in very carefully controlled thicknesses.

Anyway, there were often some arcs and sparks within the chamber with
either of these deposition methods that would raise hell with some of
the very sensitive measurement instruments. The elaborate grounding,
using a wide conductor (flashing) is much better at RF and EMI quenching
of the arcs. A simple, round ground wire has too much inductive
reactance. It's only purpose on these systems was to serve as a safety
ground. Sometimes we'd have to chase our tail for a while however
because the use of both grounding systems sometimes generated a ground
loop which only magnified the RFI problem.

So you were running ungrounded delta. That is fairly rare and usually
only for systems that are very intolerant of faults, like a glass
plant where a power failure makes the whole place pretty much trash.
I assume you had ground fault indicators since the first ground fault
is "free". I have never actually seen ungrounded delta here. The other
option is impedance grounding that grounds the system via a resistor,
just to stabilize the voltage, not to provide any fault protection.

You are right that there is no exception that allows the non current
carrying parts of the system to be ungrounded. They are really trying
to change that terminology to "bonded" to avoid confusion with the
"grounded conductor" that we normally call the neutral and the
"grounding electrode" that is your physical connection with earth.
Article 250 may be the most misunderstood article in the whole NEC,
hence the one I spent the most time studying. They are trying to
redefine some of the terms to make it easier to understand because
"ground" is such an all encompassing word that it misses the intent
about half the time and when you actually start testing, it isn't even
the same voltage from one place to another when you actually test with
stakes in the dirt.




I don't think the configuration I described is all that rare. In fact
it's pretty common for industrial machine tool wiring for equipment that
requires significant power. There are literally thousands of systems
similar to the ones my company built, designed manufactured and
installed by other companies in the USA and world wide, going back to
the 1950's.


I don't know. Like I said I have never seen ungrounded delta but I
know the guys to ask.
I am still wondering if it was impedance grounded or corner grounded.
They do not need to bring the grounded conductor out to distribution
equipment, in fact we never did in computer rooms. It stopped at the
service disconnect.

We (and other US manufactures) follow(ed) the National Electric Code
however there are some things that aren't even acknowledged, covered or
would not be allowed (like the electron beam source application). Our
installation crew got into a ****ing contest with a union electrician
once regarding how the 10,000 volt leads to the feedthroughs were wired
below the chamber baseplate. There is nothing in the code book that
even comes close to covering anything like this. We had access to them
protected by panel interlocks, vacuum interlocks and then the leads
themselves are within plexiglass enclosures with "Danger - High Voltage"
stickers on them. I think it scared the electrician and he raised an
issue that temporarily shut down the installation of the system. It was
resolved by the customer's facility engineering and was approved.

There's a clause for situations like that in the code book that goes
something like: "When the machine requirements and the code conflict,
the machine requirements will govern".

Every one of our technical proposals had that clause in it, along with
pertinent ASME codes for pressure vessels, even though a vacuum chamber
is not really a pressure vessel. During the many years I was in that
industry there were no ASME codes for vacuum vessels. That's why two 8
inch flanges on some vacuum piping would be connected with 8, 3/4 inch
bolts with nuts. Kinda overkill for vacuum piping but that's what the
ASME code calls for.

Once you get off into "equipment" the NEC is largely silent. For IBM,
it stopped at the line plug although in places like Chicago the IBEW
still wanted a taste of the labor (or all of it).


We built and installed a custom system for the deposition of hard carbon
(diamond-like coating) onto M1 tank infrared windows. It used a RF
power supply as part of the process. It was installed at a company a
couple of miles or so from O'Hare Airport and the local inspector
demanded that it needed to be CE Certified which was news to me. He
inspected all the components we had purchased and used for it ... down
to the small air actuator valves but when he asked what it was used for
he just signed off on the whole thing.


That is a man without a clue. "CE" is a european certification with
very little to no importance in the US. The NEC says listed by a
Nationally Recognized Testing Lab and OSHA does not recognize CE is
lab testing (yes it is OSHA that manages the NRTL program)
CE is actually done by the manufacturers, not a 3d party lab. It
really just says the product meets EU standards for trade within that
body.
There are European NRTLs, TUV probably being the biggest.
AHJs can require listing of equipment but that process is going to be
spotty at best since most inspectors do not really have a good
understanding of how things get listed. If you can show them a U/L
label somewhere, they usually go back to looking at things they
understand.
Legally, if you change the plug on something, (or change any other
part for something different) it is not listed anymore. That is one
reason why computers have the IEC 320 C13/C14 on the inputs and then
you can get an assortment of listed line cords available to you.



This was many years ago ... late 80's and I agree, the guy probably
didn't understand what a CE cert even meant. He was just a guy with a
badge, throwing his weight around.

On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 03:07:04 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/6/2018 1:21 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 16:32:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/5/2018 2:06 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 12:28:51 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/5/2018 11:37 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 05:34:25 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I agree the harmonic problem is just on wye but that is the most
common configuration, 208 or 480.
I think the problem first showed up on 480/277 wye systems where they
had a building full of 277v electronic ballasts.
Then it started showing up in those 208 systems that were feeding 120v
lines in cubicles through the internal wiring with a 5 wire feeder as
PCs started replacing terminals with ferro power supplies and space
heaters.

Delta is always funny stuff, depending on where or even if you land
the ground. Corner grounded is probably the easiest to confuse the
novice. It will look just like single phase until you get your meter
out. (2 pole breakers, white wires etc)


Not familiar with that. The majority of the systems we built were
designed to run on 480v, 3 phase. All the main breakers, fused
disconnects, motor starters, etc. were three pole. Ground was run
separately. We used a dedicated control transformer in each power
cabinet to generate whatever the low voltage control wiring was ... 120v
in the early days but later 24 volt. IIRC, the control transformer on
the 120v systems was a 480v/240v step down with a center tap, providing
a neutral.




Did you ground your 480 delta at all? If so where did the ground land?

I understand your control circuit voltage can be 120 if you want. That
is just a class 1 control circuit. Most people are familiar with class
2 but they are both controlled by the same article in the NEC.
Class 1 just looks like regular line voltage circuits because it is
not voltage or current limited like class 2 and 3.
The center tapped 240 delta is commonly called "red leg" or "wild
leg"because the corner between the center tapped windings will be 208v
to ground. "Red" is a misnomer tho because the NEC requires the wire
to be orange. That is very common in places where they want discount 3
phase and have a significant amount of single phase loads like those
small industrial bays. The PoCo can do it with 2 transformers,
generally the wild leg will be on a much smaller one. One "winding" is
actually open. hence another name, "Delta Veep".

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/red%...ansformers.jpg

99.99% of the time, if you see 3 transformers on the pole, it will be
wye. but I have seen one place in Key West where they had red leg
delta with 3 transformers. The only tip off was one was bigger than
the other two and it was confirmed by analysing the wiring.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Tran...%20_breath.jpg

Yeah my wife thinks I am crazy too, taking pictures of transformers.



Ground for the 480 Delta system service was run separately back to the
physical (metallic) ground at the panel, usually via a 6 awg wire.
Ground was not taken from any of the legs of the 3 phase Delta the way
you have described.

Many of the systems we built also had a RFI ground consisting of wide,
copper flashing to two, 8' copper rods driven through the floor and into
the ground. The rods were about 10-15 feet apart and we tried to get
close to 1 ohm resistance between them. This often required a copper
sulfate solution to be poured into the rod holes.

The reason for the exotic grounding had nothing to do with safety. Many
of the systems utilized a RF transmitter running at 13 Mhz. The load
for the RF transmitter was a plasma (ionized partial pressure gas)
generated within the vacuum chamber.

We had specially designed "matchboxes" that allowed load impedance
matching of the 50 ohm transmitter output to the very low impedance of
the plasma. Other systems used an electron beam operating at 10,000
volts. A stream of electrons are emitted from a filament and focused
magnetically onto various metals or dielectrics that were vaporized by
the beam and deposited on optics in very carefully controlled thicknesses.

Anyway, there were often some arcs and sparks within the chamber with
either of these deposition methods that would raise hell with some of
the very sensitive measurement instruments. The elaborate grounding,
using a wide conductor (flashing) is much better at RF and EMI quenching
of the arcs. A simple, round ground wire has too much inductive
reactance. It's only purpose on these systems was to serve as a safety
ground. Sometimes we'd have to chase our tail for a while however
because the use of both grounding systems sometimes generated a ground
loop which only magnified the RFI problem.

So you were running ungrounded delta. That is fairly rare and usually
only for systems that are very intolerant of faults, like a glass
plant where a power failure makes the whole place pretty much trash.
I assume you had ground fault indicators since the first ground fault
is "free". I have never actually seen ungrounded delta here. The other
option is impedance grounding that grounds the system via a resistor,
just to stabilize the voltage, not to provide any fault protection.

You are right that there is no exception that allows the non current
carrying parts of the system to be ungrounded. They are really trying
to change that terminology to "bonded" to avoid confusion with the
"grounded conductor" that we normally call the neutral and the
"grounding electrode" that is your physical connection with earth.
Article 250 may be the most misunderstood article in the whole NEC,
hence the one I spent the most time studying. They are trying to
redefine some of the terms to make it easier to understand because
"ground" is such an all encompassing word that it misses the intent
about half the time and when you actually start testing, it isn't even
the same voltage from one place to another when you actually test with
stakes in the dirt.




I don't think the configuration I described is all that rare. In fact
it's pretty common for industrial machine tool wiring for equipment that
requires significant power. There are literally thousands of systems
similar to the ones my company built, designed manufactured and
installed by other companies in the USA and world wide, going back to
the 1950's.



I don't know. Like I said I have never seen ungrounded delta but I
know the guys to ask.
I am still wondering if it was impedance grounded or corner grounded.
They do not need to bring the grounded conductor out to distribution
equipment, in fact we never did in computer rooms. It stopped at the
service disconnect.

Ah .. I think I see the confusion. Yes, the secondary of a 3 wire, 480v
delta service will usually have one leg tied to *earth* ground but it's
not used as a current carrying conductor. The primary side of a 3 wire
service transformer is not grounded. There is also a 4 wire delta
service that includes a neutral from the service side.

You are talking the service side. I am talking the load side.

The equipment we built was powered by the 3 wire, 480v legs for power to
the various motors and heaters. A safety ground is run back to the
service panel that is tied to earth ground. It's why we used a
separate transformer to generate the single phase, 120v and 24v control
voltages used for the instruments and control switches.

OK that makes more sense. The service side will usually be medium
voltage and I agree it is common not to have that grounded if it is
delta. We usually see wye distribution here once it gets down to
street level tho. (one grounded conductor and one ungrounded "hot" on
the pole).
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/transformer.jpg
The power line behind my house is 2 medium voltage and 1 high voltage
line going south. The medium voltage gets tapped off along the way and
the high voltage goes all the way to Naples. They are all ungrounded
delta.
The service side is actually regulated be the NESC, not the NEC and
they have different rules. That is why your service drop can be #2
1350 aluminum and once you take over from the service point you need
to go with 2/0 cu or 4/0 al.

Your power on the customer side was corner grounded delta.
Legally they could have brought that grounded leg to your panels in
white wire and used 2 pole breakers on the ungrounded conductors.
That is when it gets confusing. I did see that in sewer system lift
pumps (240v corner grounded delta). That is the only place. The line
to neutral loads were 240v as were the line to line. It took me a
minute to figure out exactly what was going on there.

On 1/6/2018 12:39 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 03:07:04 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/6/2018 1:21 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 16:32:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/5/2018 2:06 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 12:28:51 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/5/2018 11:37 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 05:34:25 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I agree the harmonic problem is just on wye but that is the most
common configuration, 208 or 480.
I think the problem first showed up on 480/277 wye systems where they
had a building full of 277v electronic ballasts.
Then it started showing up in those 208 systems that were feeding 120v
lines in cubicles through the internal wiring with a 5 wire feeder as
PCs started replacing terminals with ferro power supplies and space
heaters.

Delta is always funny stuff, depending on where or even if you land
the ground. Corner grounded is probably the easiest to confuse the
novice. It will look just like single phase until you get your meter
out. (2 pole breakers, white wires etc)


Not familiar with that. The majority of the systems we built were
designed to run on 480v, 3 phase. All the main breakers, fused
disconnects, motor starters, etc. were three pole. Ground was run
separately. We used a dedicated control transformer in each power
cabinet to generate whatever the low voltage control wiring was ... 120v
in the early days but later 24 volt. IIRC, the control transformer on
the 120v systems was a 480v/240v step down with a center tap, providing
a neutral.




Did you ground your 480 delta at all? If so where did the ground land?

I understand your control circuit voltage can be 120 if you want. That
is just a class 1 control circuit. Most people are familiar with class
2 but they are both controlled by the same article in the NEC.
Class 1 just looks like regular line voltage circuits because it is
not voltage or current limited like class 2 and 3.
The center tapped 240 delta is commonly called "red leg" or "wild
leg"because the corner between the center tapped windings will be 208v
to ground. "Red" is a misnomer tho because the NEC requires the wire
to be orange. That is very common in places where they want discount 3
phase and have a significant amount of single phase loads like those
small industrial bays. The PoCo can do it with 2 transformers,
generally the wild leg will be on a much smaller one. One "winding" is
actually open. hence another name, "Delta Veep".

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/red%...ansformers.jpg

99.99% of the time, if you see 3 transformers on the pole, it will be
wye. but I have seen one place in Key West where they had red leg
delta with 3 transformers. The only tip off was one was bigger than
the other two and it was confirmed by analysing the wiring.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Tran...%20_breath.jpg

Yeah my wife thinks I am crazy too, taking pictures of transformers.



Ground for the 480 Delta system service was run separately back to the
physical (metallic) ground at the panel, usually via a 6 awg wire.
Ground was not taken from any of the legs of the 3 phase Delta the way
you have described.

Many of the systems we built also had a RFI ground consisting of wide,
copper flashing to two, 8' copper rods driven through the floor and into
the ground. The rods were about 10-15 feet apart and we tried to get
close to 1 ohm resistance between them. This often required a copper
sulfate solution to be poured into the rod holes.

The reason for the exotic grounding had nothing to do with safety. Many
of the systems utilized a RF transmitter running at 13 Mhz. The load
for the RF transmitter was a plasma (ionized partial pressure gas)
generated within the vacuum chamber.

We had specially designed "matchboxes" that allowed load impedance
matching of the 50 ohm transmitter output to the very low impedance of
the plasma. Other systems used an electron beam operating at 10,000
volts. A stream of electrons are emitted from a filament and focused
magnetically onto various metals or dielectrics that were vaporized by
the beam and deposited on optics in very carefully controlled thicknesses.

Anyway, there were often some arcs and sparks within the chamber with
either of these deposition methods that would raise hell with some of
the very sensitive measurement instruments. The elaborate grounding,
using a wide conductor (flashing) is much better at RF and EMI quenching
of the arcs. A simple, round ground wire has too much inductive
reactance. It's only purpose on these systems was to serve as a safety
ground. Sometimes we'd have to chase our tail for a while however
because the use of both grounding systems sometimes generated a ground
loop which only magnified the RFI problem.

So you were running ungrounded delta. That is fairly rare and usually
only for systems that are very intolerant of faults, like a glass
plant where a power failure makes the whole place pretty much trash.
I assume you had ground fault indicators since the first ground fault
is "free". I have never actually seen ungrounded delta here. The other
option is impedance grounding that grounds the system via a resistor,
just to stabilize the voltage, not to provide any fault protection.

You are right that there is no exception that allows the non current
carrying parts of the system to be ungrounded. They are really trying
to change that terminology to "bonded" to avoid confusion with the
"grounded conductor" that we normally call the neutral and the
"grounding electrode" that is your physical connection with earth.
Article 250 may be the most misunderstood article in the whole NEC,
hence the one I spent the most time studying. They are trying to
redefine some of the terms to make it easier to understand because
"ground" is such an all encompassing word that it misses the intent
about half the time and when you actually start testing, it isn't even
the same voltage from one place to another when you actually test with
stakes in the dirt.




I don't think the configuration I described is all that rare. In fact
it's pretty common for industrial machine tool wiring for equipment that
requires significant power. There are literally thousands of systems
similar to the ones my company built, designed manufactured and
installed by other companies in the USA and world wide, going back to
the 1950's.



I don't know. Like I said I have never seen ungrounded delta but I
know the guys to ask.
I am still wondering if it was impedance grounded or corner grounded.
They do not need to bring the grounded conductor out to distribution
equipment, in fact we never did in computer rooms. It stopped at the
service disconnect.

Ah .. I think I see the confusion. Yes, the secondary of a 3 wire, 480v
delta service will usually have one leg tied to *earth* ground but it's
not used as a current carrying conductor. The primary side of a 3 wire
service transformer is not grounded. There is also a 4 wire delta
service that includes a neutral from the service side.

You are talking the service side. I am talking the load side.

The equipment we built was powered by the 3 wire, 480v legs for power to
the various motors and heaters. A safety ground is run back to the
service panel that is tied to earth ground. It's why we used a
separate transformer to generate the single phase, 120v and 24v control
voltages used for the instruments and control switches.

OK that makes more sense. The service side will usually be medium
voltage and I agree it is common not to have that grounded if it is
delta. We usually see wye distribution here once it gets down to
street level tho. (one grounded conductor and one ungrounded "hot" on
the pole).
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/transformer.jpg
The power line behind my house is 2 medium voltage and 1 high voltage
line going south. The medium voltage gets tapped off along the way and
the high voltage goes all the way to Naples. They are all ungrounded
delta.
The service side is actually regulated be the NESC, not the NEC and
they have different rules. That is why your service drop can be #2
1350 aluminum and once you take over from the service point you need
to go with 2/0 cu or 4/0 al.

Your power on the customer side was corner grounded delta.
Legally they could have brought that grounded leg to your panels in
white wire and used 2 pole breakers on the ungrounded conductors.
That is when it gets confusing. I did see that in sewer system lift
pumps (240v corner grounded delta). That is the only place. The line
to neutral loads were 240v as were the line to line. It took me a
minute to figure out exactly what was going on there.



About 70 percent of our systems were designed for 480v and the customer
was responsible for providing a service drop near where the system would
be installed. Never saw a two pole breaker and a neutral in all the
years we built systems. Would have confused me. :-) Fortunately we
had a PE (EE) on our engineering staff who reviewed all our electrical
drawings to make sure we were compliant. In our technical proposal we
would identify the service requirements which were typically, 480v, 3
phase and then whatever the total power consumption was (i.e. 25kva or
whatever it was).

Same with the systems that ran on 208v when 480 was not available. We
just required 208v, 3 phase and again identified the total power
consumption. We provided a control transformer for 120v, even in the
systems that ran on 208 wye. There was a reason for this. I've seen
systems built by others who got the 120v control power from the service
panel and, if something failed in the vacuum deposition system, like a
fuse or motor starter heater in the power panel the system might still
try to run, creating a dangerous situation. We wired control power
through aux contacts on all the motor starters or sub system contactors
so if one tripped, control power was lost and the system defaulted to a
"safe mode" with all valves automatically closing under air power.

This discussion is bringing back a lot of memories. :-)

On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 12:24:30 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


This was many years ago ... late 80's and I agree, the guy probably
didn't understand what a CE cert even meant. He was just a guy with a
badge, throwing his weight around.


The "badge" thing always amazed me. We just had a state issued photo
ID. I still have mine and since my last contract had an open end date,
I still may be "working".
They haven't called in 16 years so it has not been very lucrative for
me tho. ;-)

It would be interesting what my hourly rate has climbed to. There was
a built in increase that took me from the original $40 an hour in 1995
to $58.50 in 2000. Just counting on my fingers, that may be around
$125 an hour.
Rick, give me a call, I will go.

On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 13:07:52 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/6/2018 12:39 PM, wrote:

OK that makes more sense. The service side will usually be medium
voltage and I agree it is common not to have that grounded if it is
delta. We usually see wye distribution here once it gets down to
street level tho. (one grounded conductor and one ungrounded "hot" on
the pole).
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/transformer.jpg
The power line behind my house is 2 medium voltage and 1 high voltage
line going south. The medium voltage gets tapped off along the way and
the high voltage goes all the way to Naples. They are all ungrounded
delta.
The service side is actually regulated be the NESC, not the NEC and
they have different rules. That is why your service drop can be #2
1350 aluminum and once you take over from the service point you need
to go with 2/0 cu or 4/0 al.

Your power on the customer side was corner grounded delta.
Legally they could have brought that grounded leg to your panels in
white wire and used 2 pole breakers on the ungrounded conductors.
That is when it gets confusing. I did see that in sewer system lift
pumps (240v corner grounded delta). That is the only place. The line
to neutral loads were 240v as were the line to line. It took me a
minute to figure out exactly what was going on there.



About 70 percent of our systems were designed for 480v and the customer
was responsible for providing a service drop near where the system would
be installed. Never saw a two pole breaker and a neutral in all the
years we built systems. Would have confused me. :-) Fortunately we
had a PE (EE) on our engineering staff who reviewed all our electrical
drawings to make sure we were compliant. In our technical proposal we
would identify the service requirements which were typically, 480v, 3
phase and then whatever the total power consumption was (i.e. 25kva or
whatever it was).

Same with the systems that ran on 208v when 480 was not available. We
just required 208v, 3 phase and again identified the total power
consumption. We provided a control transformer for 120v, even in the
systems that ran on 208 wye. There was a reason for this. I've seen
systems built by others who got the 120v control power from the service
panel and, if something failed in the vacuum deposition system, like a
fuse or motor starter heater in the power panel the system might still
try to run, creating a dangerous situation. We wired control power
through aux contacts on all the motor starters or sub system contactors
so if one tripped, control power was lost and the system defaulted to a
"safe mode" with all valves automatically closing under air power.

This discussion is bringing back a lot of memories. :-)

I am not sure when they decided all "grounded" conductors should be
white but it was certainly before the 80s.
Corner delta was always the strange duck tho and I have heard sparkies
say strange stuff about it like it is "hot as hell". I ask, "in
reference to what"?
A grounded conductor is still a grounded conductor, no matter which
tap on the transformer you choose to ground.
Once you do that, you can use 2 pole breakers on corner delta. They
need to be delta rated tho. (essentially that means they are rated
line to line, not line to neutral like general purpose breakers).
Normally you do not put overcurrent protection or switches in grounded
conductors and the exception is when all poles open simultaneously.
That is how they get away with 2 pole stuff.
Corner delta is also a reason why we say "grounded conductor" and not
neutral, which is really not defined in the code anyway. This is a
regular current carrying conductor, that just happens to be grounded.
200.6 still says it should be white or gray.

"200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.
(A) Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller. An insulated grounded conductor of 6 AWG
or smaller shall be identified by a continuous white or gray outer
finish".
(larger than #6 can use phasing tape, paint or any other "distinctive"
marking method since the insulation will usually be black)

wrote:
On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 12:24:30 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


This was many years ago ... late 80's and I agree, the guy probably
didn't understand what a CE cert even meant. He was just a guy with a
badge, throwing his weight around.


The "badge" thing always amazed me. We just had a state issued photo
ID. I still have mine and since my last contract had an open end date,
I still may be "working".
They haven't called in 16 years so it has not been very lucrative for
me tho. ;-)

It would be interesting what my hourly rate has climbed to. There was
a built in increase that took me from the original $40 an hour in 1995
to $58.50 in 2000. Just counting on my fingers, that may be around
$125 an hour.
Rick, give me a call, I will go.


I think my AUSPAC inspector SIL gets $120/hour minimum 4 hours.

On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 23:50:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 12:24:30 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


This was many years ago ... late 80's and I agree, the guy probably
didn't understand what a CE cert even meant. He was just a guy with a
badge, throwing his weight around.


The "badge" thing always amazed me. We just had a state issued photo
ID. I still have mine and since my last contract had an open end date,
I still may be "working".
They haven't called in 16 years so it has not been very lucrative for
me tho. ;-)

It would be interesting what my hourly rate has climbed to. There was
a built in increase that took me from the original $40 an hour in 1995
to $58.50 in 2000. Just counting on my fingers, that may be around
$125 an hour.
Rick, give me a call, I will go.


I think my AUSPAC inspector SIL gets $120/hour minimum 4 hours.

Him or the company?

wrote:
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 23:50:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 12:24:30 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


This was many years ago ... late 80's and I agree, the guy probably
didn't understand what a CE cert even meant. He was just a guy with a
badge, throwing his weight around.


The "badge" thing always amazed me. We just had a state issued photo
ID. I still have mine and since my last contract had an open end date,
I still may be "working".
They haven't called in 16 years so it has not been very lucrative for
me tho. ;-)

It would be interesting what my hourly rate has climbed to. There was
a built in increase that took me from the original $40 an hour in 1995
to $58.50 in 2000. Just counting on my fingers, that may be around
$125 an hour.
Rick, give me a call, I will go.


I think my AUSPAC inspector SIL gets $120/hour minimum 4 hours.

Him or the company?


Him. He is the corporation. Most of the AUSPAC seem to be self employed.

On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 16:05:40 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 23:50:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 12:24:30 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


This was many years ago ... late 80's and I agree, the guy probably
didn't understand what a CE cert even meant. He was just a guy with a
badge, throwing his weight around.


The "badge" thing always amazed me. We just had a state issued photo
ID. I still have mine and since my last contract had an open end date,
I still may be "working".
They haven't called in 16 years so it has not been very lucrative for
me tho. ;-)

It would be interesting what my hourly rate has climbed to. There was
a built in increase that took me from the original $40 an hour in 1995
to $58.50 in 2000. Just counting on my fingers, that may be around
$125 an hour.
Rick, give me a call, I will go.


I think my AUSPAC inspector SIL gets $120/hour minimum 4 hours.

Him or the company?


Him. He is the corporation. Most of the AUSPAC seem to be self employed.

Great gig.