On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:18:44 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:

On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 6:01:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:01:34 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:


That's because electricians are schooled on the mechanics of wiring, but not theory. If a device's tag says it draws 30 amps, they know what size and type wire for the run to it (or where to look in the NEC book to find it), breaker size and type, conduit or not, etc. I'd bet close to half don't understand that the two legs are actually 180 degrees out of phase. Their exposure to theory is very brief, then it moves on to mechanics. Nothing wrong with that. The book tells them what size neutral, too.

That was true in places where training is left to the unions but
places that get actual continuing education for the new guys (and the
old guys) will be exposed to a lot more theory.
Union training is basically the old guys dribbling out what they know
to the new guys over 4 years. Very little new ever penetrates that
cycle.
I remember trying to explain triplin harmonics to a bunch of union GSA
electricians and having them tell me how long they had been wiring and
how I was just a snot nosed kid who didn't know ****.
A week later when their neutrals were burning up, the manager told
them they needed to listen to me.
Nobody had ever seen electronic ballasts and switching power supplies
before the 70s and 80s but they learned.

I guess I'm thinking more about residential electricians who rarely touch industrial, 3 phase power systems where triplen harmonics really cause problems. SC has no CE requirements for electricians/electrical contractors.

That is true. It is hard to find a house in the US with 3p although I
tried to get it in Maryland, just because of the access I had to
cheap/free 3p equipment. It probably would have been red leg but I
could deal with that. They still would not drop me another
transformer.
It is crazy that your state does not have a CEU requirement.

An electrical engineer should be designing the distribution system for that power, and the electrician installing it by the print, IMO. I can certainly understand the union shop being snotty... I've experienced it firsthand.

This was GSA (federal government) union workers so that is
incompetence squared.

This was not the first time I dealt with them. The Bureau of
Radiological Health was building a computer room in the early 70s. GSA
got the job because it was "government"
The first day they showed up at 10AM and left at 2 with an hour off
for lunch and they did not really do anything but walk around and
look. The second day they showed up at 10 again and said they still
did not have all the materials they needed and basically did not get
much done then either.
The guy who was trying to get the work done got so frustrated he just
went into his discretionary budget, called a regular contractor and
got the whole thing done in a day.
The GSA guys tried to protest but it turned out this was a leased
building and GSA was not really supposed to be there anyway.

On 1/4/2018 5:46 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:23:28 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


I definitely agree that not everyone should do this. The best way is to
have an automatic transfer box installed to code by a licensed electrician.

That said, I've done this several times, including the house we had in
Florida after Wilma. I have sufficient knowledge of what I am doing but
even so, I stop, check and re-check before firing up the generator and
throwing the breaker that it backfeeds through.

It's illegal, but safe if you pay attention and know something about
house wiring.

Here's a little test that I've even tried on licensed electricians to
see how knowledgeable they a

Your house service is usually 240vac, split phase. Split phase means
two "hot" leads, a neutral (used with both hot legs) and a ground (which
really is tied to the neutral leg. Across the two "hot" leads you have
240 volts which is used for stoves, large AC units, etc. Between either
hot lead and neutral you have 120 volts which is used for your outlets,
lighting, refrig and small appliances. Your panel box is supposed to be
wired to balance the loads as best as possible. So, here's the
question. Let's say:

Leg "A" of the 120 volt supply is drawing 40 amps.
Leg "B" of the 120 volt supply is drawing 30 amps.

How much current is flowing through the common neutral leg that is used
for both legs?

The answer is 10 amps.

Many people assume it is the sum of both current draws or 70 amps in
this example and it's amazing how many "electricians" don't know that.
They don't realize that the two "hot" legs are 180 degrees out of phase,
so the current in the neutral adds algebraically.

That's why the neutral feed from the street to your power panel is the
same size wire as the two hot leads. It will never carry more than what
one hot leg is rated to draw.

I can't imagine any real electrician does not know that.
In fact with the right engineering, the neutral really only needs to
be sized to the maximum unbalanced load.
For example
You are allowed to use 70% for ranges and dryers in dwelling calcs.
OTOH on 3 phase, you may end up actually using a neutral of close to
200% of the ungrounded conductor load because of triplin harmonics.
This became an issue with electronic ballasts and switcher power
supplies.


Only on three phase Wye. 3 phase Delta you don't have to worry about the
neutral.

I've never seen 3 phase service to a residential dwelling. Not saying
it doesn't exist, I just have never seen or even heard of it. Both of
the facilities I had for my company were 3 phase though, one 208v Wye,
the other 480v Delta.

On 1/4/2018 6:01 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:01:34 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:


That's because electricians are schooled on the mechanics of wiring, but not theory. If a device's tag says it draws 30 amps, they know what size and type wire for the run to it (or where to look in the NEC book to find it), breaker size and type, conduit or not, etc. I'd bet close to half don't understand that the two legs are actually 180 degrees out of phase. Their exposure to theory is very brief, then it moves on to mechanics. Nothing wrong with that. The book tells them what size neutral, too.

That was true in places where training is left to the unions but
places that get actual continuing education for the new guys (and the
old guys) will be exposed to a lot more theory.
Union training is basically the old guys dribbling out what they know
to the new guys over 4 years. Very little new ever penetrates that
cycle.
I remember trying to explain triplin harmonics to a bunch of union GSA
electricians and having them tell me how long they had been wiring and
how I was just a snot nosed kid who didn't know ****.
A week later when their neutrals were burning up, the manager told
them they needed to listen to me.
Nobody had ever seen electronic ballasts and switching power supplies
before the 70s and 80s but they learned.



I am sure some electricians do learn theory however I agree with Its Me.
When new stuff comes along the code is just rewritten in terms of how to
wire for the new stuff. The code tells them when arc suppressors are
necessary, for example, but the electrician doesn't necessarily know why.

I have a fairly solid understanding of electrical wiring and power
distribution. However, I am totally ignorant of what current building
codes are. I wouldn't even consider doing a new residential service or
even a major renovation of an existing service myself. I'd hire a
licensed electrician.

On 1/4/2018 6:17 PM, justan wrote:
John H Wrote in message:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:16:34 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/4/2018 1:07 PM, John H wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 12:42:29 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/4/2018 12:20 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 08:54:03 -0500, John H
wrote:

On Wed, 3 Jan 2018 17:19:35 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/3/2018 2:28 PM, Its Me wrote:
Light flurries now, the predictions range from a dusting to 1-2 inches. Worse the closer to the coast you get. My BIL at James Island (Charleston) sent a picture earlier of maybe 1/4 inch and still falling. Very unusual for them.

It's out of here in a few hours and headed up the coast. Good luck!



Damn. I was hoping it would dump a foot in Mt. Pleasant, just to shut
my son up.

Last I heard it is supposed to "explode" as it comes up the coast,
becoming essentially a winter hurricane.

"Bombogenesis" is the technical term, and the popular "bomb cyclone" is a shortened version of it,
according to our weather folks.

They do seem to just make up names for things these days. I think the
classic was "Super Storm Sandy" to talk about something that was not
even a hurricane, it was just "super" for people who were not used to
tropical weather.
It is far from unprecedented tho. There was a real Cat 3 there in the
30s.
I have certainly seen that weather pattern in DC tho and this is not
even the worst case. The snow would actually be more of a problem if
the "eye" of that low was farther west so your wind was drawing wet
gulf stream air up into the cold front north of you. That is what
gives DC over a foot of snow a day and if it stalls, you
"Knickerbocker" snow.


Up here a Cat 1 hurricane in the summer might be preferable over what is
going on right now. When you look at this storm on radar it is
developing a very defined rotation as it is winding up and getting
bigger. Snowfall rate here is 2-3 inches/hr and the temp is dropping
like a rock since this morning. Pretty much a white-out out there.

Major flooding in Justin's former town with 4 disabled cars with people
trapped inside, one a woman with 2 kids. Water is over the wheel wells.
Fire and National Guard are responding.

My old stomping grounds in Scituate is really getting clobbered ...
worst in over 30 years despite improvements in sea walls, etc. A TV
reporter nut was standing on the porch of a house about 30 feet from the
seawall and he was getting soaked with spray, along with dodging sea ice
that is being thrown up onto the roofs of houses.

So far we haven't had any power glitches here but I fully expect we'll
lose it in the next hour or so. Wind where I am is gusting 55-60 mph.

Best of luck in all that. I think I'd be getting out the extension cords and prioritizing my
electricity requirements!


Did that yesterday ... that's why I was firing up the Honda to test.

I have a new plan. If power goes out I am going to shut off the main
breaker and then backfeed the generator output through a 15 amp outlet
that's in the shed. It's on the same branch of the split 240v house
supply as the furnace and a couple of rooms. All my lighting is LED, so
that's a tiny load. The generator will run those plus the furnace
system with no problem and I don't need to have extension cords running
anywhere.


Well, you know more about electricity than I do. That's something I'd never try. Came across this
while looking for info. Don't know if it'll help or you already have it down.

http://www.tcscooters.com/backfeed.htm

I like steps 1-3:

If you are going to backfeed your home, you must be very carefully and follow the directions below.
If you fail to follow them you can kill a line worker, kill yourself or blow up your generator.
Again I'll say, get a licensed electrician.

Step One, the most important step of all is to turn off the main breakers.
Step two, turn off the main breakers.
Step three, turn off the main breakers. Do you get the idea?
Step four, remember to plug the generator end in last. If the generator is running and you are using
two male ends the house end plug is live!


A friend of mine bought a kit to do it safely; simple but genius.
Install a 220 breaker right below your 220 mains. They provide a
simple slider that won't let you switch on both breaker sets at
the same time. The newly installed breaker set feeds a new panel
box with a 50 A jack like your RV plugs into. Make up a cord to
connect your genset and you're done. Turn off all load breakers.
Connect the cord at both ends and start the genset then you can
switch the power.



Boats with generators usually have a sliding main so you couldn't have
the boat's generator and shore power connected to the power panel at the
same time.

On 1/4/2018 7:43 PM, Alex wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/4/2018 1:07 PM, John H wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 12:42:29 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/4/2018 12:20 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 08:54:03 -0500, John H
wrote:

On Wed, 3 Jan 2018 17:19:35 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/3/2018 2:28 PM, Its Me wrote:
Light flurries now, the predictions range from a dusting to 1-2
inches.Â* Worse the closer to the coast you get.Â* My BIL at James
Island (Charleston) sent a picture earlier of maybe 1/4 inch and
still falling.Â* Very unusual for them.

It's out of here in a few hours and headed up the coast.Â* Good
luck!



Damn.Â* I was hoping it would dump a foot in Mt. Pleasant, just to
shut
my son up.

Last I heard it is supposed to "explode" as it comes up the coast,
becoming essentially a winter hurricane.

"Bombogenesis" is the technical term, and the popular "bomb
cyclone" is a shortened version of it,
according to our weather folks.

They do seem to just make up names for things these days. I think the
classic was "Super Storm Sandy" to talk about something that was not
even a hurricane, it was just "super" for people who were not used to
tropical weather.
It is far from unprecedented tho. There was a real Cat 3 there in the
30s.
I have certainly seen that weather pattern in DC tho and this is not
even the worst case. The snow would actually be more of a problem if
the "eye" of that low was farther west so your wind was drawing wet
gulf stream air up into the cold front north of you. That is what
gives DC over a foot of snow a day and if it stalls, you
"Knickerbocker" snow.


Up here a Cat 1 hurricane in the summer might be preferable over
what is
going on right now. When you look at this storm on radar it is
developing a very defined rotation as it is winding up and getting
bigger.Â* Snowfall rate here is 2-3 inches/hr and the temp is dropping
like a rock since this morning.Â* Pretty much a white-out out there.

Major flooding in Justin's former town with 4 disabled cars with people
trapped inside, one a woman with 2 kids.Â* Water is over the wheel
wells.
Â* Fire and National Guard are responding.

My old stomping grounds in Scituate is really getting clobbered ...
worst in over 30 years despite improvements in sea walls, etc.Â* A TV
reporter nut was standing on the porch of a house about 30 feet from
the
seawall and he was getting soaked with spray, along with dodging sea
ice
that is being thrown up onto the roofs of houses.

So far we haven't had any power glitches here but I fully expect we'll
lose it in the next hour or so. Wind where I am is gusting 55-60 mph.

Best of luck in all that. I think I'd be getting out the extension
cords and prioritizing my
electricity requirements!


Did that yesterday ... that's why I was firing up the Honda to test.

I have a new plan.Â* If power goes out I am going to shut off the main
breaker and then backfeed the generator output through a 15 amp outlet
that's in the shed.Â* It's on the same branch of the split 240v house
supply as the furnace and a couple of rooms.Â* All my lighting is LED,
so that's a tiny load.Â* The generator will run those plus the furnace
system with no problem and I don't need to have extension cords
running anywhere.



Only problem with that is it's hard to tell when the power is back on.


Turn off the breaker that feeds the shed, turn the main back on and see
if your lights work. If so, shut off and unplug the generator then turn
the breaker that feeds the shed back on.

When Wilma hit in Florida I had a much bigger contractor's generator
that had a 240 volt split phase output. I wired it into the power panel
(illegally) on the load side of the main breaker and just made damn sure
I didn't forget and turn the main back on. It worked fine except it
burned so much gas I would have run out of my supply in a matter of a
couple of days. Only used it for about an hour or less a day to run the
well pump and the water heater so I could take showers. Other than
that, I used the little Honda for the refrig, couple of lights, the TV
and Direct TV receiver.

On 1/4/2018 7:51 PM, Alex wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/4/2018 2:53 PM, John H wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:16:34 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/4/2018 1:07 PM, John H wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 12:42:29 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/4/2018 12:20 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 08:54:03 -0500, John H
wrote:

On Wed, 3 Jan 2018 17:19:35 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/3/2018 2:28 PM, Its Me wrote:
Light flurries now, the predictions range from a dusting to
1-2 inches. Worse the closer to the coast you get.Â* My BIL at
James Island (Charleston) sent a picture earlier of maybe 1/4
inch and still falling.Â* Very unusual for them.

It's out of here in a few hours and headed up the coast.Â* Good
luck!



Damn.Â* I was hoping it would dump a foot in Mt. Pleasant, just
to shut
my son up.

Last I heard it is supposed to "explode" as it comes up the coast,
becoming essentially a winter hurricane.

"Bombogenesis" is the technical term, and the popular "bomb
cyclone" is a shortened version of it,
according to our weather folks.

They do seem to just make up names for things these days. I think
the
classic was "Super Storm Sandy" to talk about something that was not
even a hurricane, it was just "super" for people who were not
used to
tropical weather.
It is far from unprecedented tho. There was a real Cat 3 there in
the
30s.
I have certainly seen that weather pattern in DC tho and this is not
even the worst case. The snow would actually be more of a problem if
the "eye" of that low was farther west so your wind was drawing wet
gulf stream air up into the cold front north of you. That is what
gives DC over a foot of snow a day and if it stalls, you
"Knickerbocker" snow.


Up here a Cat 1 hurricane in the summer might be preferable over
what is
going on right now. When you look at this storm on radar it is
developing a very defined rotation as it is winding up and getting
bigger.Â* Snowfall rate here is 2-3 inches/hr and the temp is dropping
like a rock since this morning.Â* Pretty much a white-out out there.

Major flooding in Justin's former town with 4 disabled cars with
people
trapped inside, one a woman with 2 kids.Â* Water is over the wheel
wells.
Â*Â* Fire and National Guard are responding.

My old stomping grounds in Scituate is really getting clobbered ...
worst in over 30 years despite improvements in sea walls, etc.Â* A TV
reporter nut was standing on the porch of a house about 30 feet
from the
seawall and he was getting soaked with spray, along with dodging
sea ice
that is being thrown up onto the roofs of houses.

So far we haven't had any power glitches here but I fully expect
we'll
lose it in the next hour or so. Wind where I am is gustingÂ* 55-60
mph.

Best of luck in all that. I think I'd be getting out the extension
cords and prioritizing my
electricity requirements!


Did that yesterday ... that's why I was firing up the Honda to test.

I have a new plan.Â* If power goes out I am going to shut off the main
breaker and then backfeed the generator output through a 15 amp outlet
that's in the shed.Â* It's on the same branch of the split 240v house
supply as the furnace and a couple of rooms.Â* All my lighting is
LED, so
that's a tiny load.Â* The generator will run those plus the furnace
system with no problem and I don't need to have extension cords running
anywhere.


Well, you know more about electricity than I do. That's something I'd
never try. Came across this
while looking for info. Don't know if it'll help or you already have
it down.

http://www.tcscooters.com/backfeed.htm

I like steps 1-3:

If you are going to backfeed your home, you must be very carefully
and follow the directions below.
If you fail to follow them you can kill a line worker, kill yourself
or blow up your generator.
Again I'll say, get a licensed electrician.

Step One, the most important step of all is to turn off the main
breakers.
Step two, turn off the main breakers.
Step three, turn off the main breakers. Do you get the idea?
Step four, remember to plug the generator end in last. If the
generator is running and you are using
two male ends the house end plug is live!



I definitely agree that not everyone should do this.Â* The best way is
to have an automatic transfer box installed to code by a licensed
electrician.

That said, I've done this several times, including the house we had in
Florida after Wilma.Â* I have sufficient knowledge of what I am doing
but even so, I stop, check and re-check before firing up the generator
and throwing the breaker that it backfeeds through.

It's illegal, but safe if you pay attention and know something about
house wiring.

Here's a little test that I've even tried on licensed electricians to
see how knowledgeable they a

Your house service is usually 240vac, split phase.Â* Split phase means
two "hot" leads, a neutral (used with both hot legs) and a ground
(which really is tied to the neutral leg.Â* Across the two "hot" leads
you have 240 volts which is used for stoves, large AC units, etc.
Between either hot lead and neutral you have 120 volts which is used
for your outlets, lighting, refrig and small appliances.Â* Your panel
box is supposed to be wired to balance the loads as best as possible.
So, here's the question.Â* Let's say:

Leg "A" of the 120 volt supply is drawingÂ* 40 amps.
Leg "B" of the 120 volt supply is drawingÂ* 30 amps.

How much current is flowing through the common neutral leg that is
used for both legs?

The answer is 10 amps.

Many people assume it is the sum of both current draws or 70 amps in
this example and it's amazing how many "electricians" don't know that.
They don't realize that the two "hot" legs are 180 degrees out of
phase, so the current in the neutral adds algebraically.

That's why the neutral feed from the street to your power panel is the
same size wire as the two hot leads.Â* It will never carry more than
what one hot leg is rated to draw.


I didn't know it was illegal - at least not here.Â* If you are
effectively, and correctly, taking yourself "off the grid" you should be
able to do whatever you want.


It's illegal everywhere I know of ... meaning "not to code". As someone
mentioned there's a risk to line workers who are restoring power if you
stupidly leave the main on while using your generator. I suspect they
are careful to check for "hot" lines that are supposed to be dead though.

On 1/4/2018 7:52 PM, Alex wrote:
John H wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:23:28 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/4/2018 2:53 PM, John H wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:16:34 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/4/2018 1:07 PM, John H wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 12:42:29 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/4/2018 12:20 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 08:54:03 -0500, John H
wrote:

On Wed, 3 Jan 2018 17:19:35 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/3/2018 2:28 PM, Its Me wrote:
Light flurries now, the predictions range from a dusting to
1-2 inches.Â* Worse the closer to the coast you get.Â* My BIL
at James Island (Charleston) sent a picture earlier of maybe
1/4 inch and still falling.Â* Very unusual for them.

It's out of here in a few hours and headed up the coast.
Good luck!


Damn.Â* I was hoping it would dump a foot in Mt. Pleasant, just
to shut
my son up.

Last I heard it is supposed to "explode" as it comes up the
coast,
becoming essentially a winter hurricane.
"Bombogenesis" is the technical term, and the popular "bomb
cyclone" is a shortened version of it,
according to our weather folks.
They do seem to just make up names for things these days. I
think the
classic was "Super Storm Sandy" to talk about something that was
not
even a hurricane, it was just "super" for people who were not
used to
tropical weather.
It is far from unprecedented tho. There was a real Cat 3 there
in the
30s.
I have certainly seen that weather pattern in DC tho and this is
not
even the worst case. The snow would actually be more of a
problem if
the "eye" of that low was farther west so your wind was drawing wet
gulf stream air up into the cold front north of you. That is what
gives DC over a foot of snow a day and if it stalls, you
"Knickerbocker" snow.

Up here a Cat 1 hurricane in the summer might be preferable over
what is
going on right now. When you look at this storm on radar it is
developing a very defined rotation as it is winding up and getting
bigger.Â* Snowfall rate here is 2-3 inches/hr and the temp is
dropping
like a rock since this morning.Â* Pretty much a white-out out there.

Major flooding in Justin's former town with 4 disabled cars with
people
trapped inside, one a woman with 2 kids.Â* Water is over the wheel
wells.
Â*Â*Â* Fire and National Guard are responding.

My old stomping grounds in Scituate is really getting clobbered ...
worst in over 30 years despite improvements in sea walls, etc.Â* A TV
reporter nut was standing on the porch of a house about 30 feet
from the
seawall and he was getting soaked with spray, along with dodging
sea ice
that is being thrown up onto the roofs of houses.

So far we haven't had any power glitches here but I fully expect
we'll
lose it in the next hour or so. Wind where I am is gustingÂ* 55-60
mph.
Best of luck in all that. I think I'd be getting out the extension
cords and prioritizing my
electricity requirements!

Did that yesterday ... that's why I was firing up the Honda to test.

I have a new plan.Â* If power goes out I am going to shut off the main
breaker and then backfeed the generator output through a 15 amp outlet
that's in the shed.Â* It's on the same branch of the split 240v house
supply as the furnace and a couple of rooms.Â* All my lighting is
LED, so
that's a tiny load.Â* The generator will run those plus the furnace
system with no problem and I don't need to have extension cords
running
anywhere.

Well, you know more about electricity than I do. That's something
I'd never try. Came across this
while looking for info. Don't know if it'll help or you already have
it down.

http://www.tcscooters.com/backfeed.htm

I like steps 1-3:

If you are going to backfeed your home, you must be very carefully
and follow the directions below.
If you fail to follow them you can kill a line worker, kill yourself
or blow up your generator.
Again I'll say, get a licensed electrician.

Step One, the most important step of all is to turn off the main
breakers.
Step two, turn off the main breakers.
Step three, turn off the main breakers. Do you get the idea?
Step four, remember to plug the generator end in last. If the
generator is running and you are using
two male ends the house end plug is live!


I definitely agree that not everyone should do this.Â* The best way is to
have an automatic transfer box installed to code by a licensed
electrician.

That said, I've done this several times, including the house we had in
Florida after Wilma.Â* I have sufficient knowledge of what I am doing but
even so, I stop, check and re-check before firing up the generator and
throwing the breaker that it backfeeds through.

It's illegal, but safe if you pay attention and know something about
house wiring.

Here's a little test that I've even tried on licensed electricians to
see how knowledgeable they a

Your house service is usually 240vac, split phase.Â* Split phase means
two "hot" leads, a neutral (used with both hot legs) and a ground (which
really is tied to the neutral leg.Â* Across the two "hot" leads you have
240 volts which is used for stoves, large AC units, etc.Â* Between either
hot lead and neutral you have 120 volts which is used for your outlets,
lighting, refrig and small appliances.Â* Your panel box is supposed to be
wired to balance the loads as best as possible.Â* So, here's the
question.Â* Let's say:

Leg "A" of the 120 volt supply is drawingÂ* 40 amps.
Leg "B" of the 120 volt supply is drawingÂ* 30 amps.

How much current is flowing through the common neutral leg that is used
for both legs?

The answer is 10 amps.

Many people assume it is the sum of both current draws or 70 amps in
this example and it's amazing how many "electricians" don't know that.
They don't realize that the two "hot" legs are 180 degrees out of phase,
so the current in the neutral adds algebraically.

That's why the neutral feed from the street to your power panel is the
same size wire as the two hot leads.Â* It will never carry more than what
one hot leg is rated to draw.
I would have guessed 35. But, that's just proof of how little I know
about electricity, off the top
of my head.

Harry would have got it right.

Maybe not.Â* It's probably not an easy Google search and his union
buddies wouldn't know the answer.


Harry's playing outside, four wheeling in his driveway in 4 inches of snow.

On 1/4/2018 8:25 PM, Its Me wrote:
On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 3:23:33 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:

Many people assume it is the sum of both current draws or 70 amps in
this example and it's amazing how many "electricians" don't know that.
They don't realize that the two "hot" legs are 180 degrees out of phase,
so the current in the neutral adds algebraically.

That's why the neutral feed from the street to your power panel is the
same size wire as the two hot leads. It will never carry more than what
one hot leg is rated to draw.

That reminds me... I've had the "discussion" with more than one intelligent person about a car (or insert motorized vehicle here) battery and it's role in running the car. Had more than one person assert that, once started (cranked), the battery runs the car and the alternator charges the battery.

Of course, that's just not the case. The alternator runs the car's systems (lights, ignition, etc...) while it recharges the battery for the next cranking cycle. It's not as if the electrons are smart and go to the battery first, then back out to the car! For the charging to occur, the alternator's output potential (voltage) is higher than the battery's, so it supplies the current to the car's systems and the leftover goes to the battery. Once charged it reduces its output voltage, and if it goes below the battery's voltage the battery would take over, but then become discharged and the alternator would ramp up and take back over. That shouldn't happen in a properly designed system, it should just go to float mode which is just slightly higher than the battery.



Don't know if it's still so but I remember in the old days you could
remove the battery from a car once it was running and it continued to
run just fine.

On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 22:32:51 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/4/2018 6:17 PM, justan wrote:
John H Wrote in message:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:16:34 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/4/2018 1:07 PM, John H wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 12:42:29 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/4/2018 12:20 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 08:54:03 -0500, John H
wrote:

On Wed, 3 Jan 2018 17:19:35 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/3/2018 2:28 PM, Its Me wrote:
Light flurries now, the predictions range from a dusting to 1-2 inches. Worse the closer to the coast you get. My BIL at James Island (Charleston) sent a picture earlier of maybe 1/4 inch and still falling. Very unusual for them.

It's out of here in a few hours and headed up the coast. Good luck!



Damn. I was hoping it would dump a foot in Mt. Pleasant, just to shut
my son up.

Last I heard it is supposed to "explode" as it comes up the coast,
becoming essentially a winter hurricane.

"Bombogenesis" is the technical term, and the popular "bomb cyclone" is a shortened version of it,
according to our weather folks.

They do seem to just make up names for things these days. I think the
classic was "Super Storm Sandy" to talk about something that was not
even a hurricane, it was just "super" for people who were not used to
tropical weather.
It is far from unprecedented tho. There was a real Cat 3 there in the
30s.
I have certainly seen that weather pattern in DC tho and this is not
even the worst case. The snow would actually be more of a problem if
the "eye" of that low was farther west so your wind was drawing wet
gulf stream air up into the cold front north of you. That is what
gives DC over a foot of snow a day and if it stalls, you
"Knickerbocker" snow.


Up here a Cat 1 hurricane in the summer might be preferable over what is
going on right now. When you look at this storm on radar it is
developing a very defined rotation as it is winding up and getting
bigger. Snowfall rate here is 2-3 inches/hr and the temp is dropping
like a rock since this morning. Pretty much a white-out out there.

Major flooding in Justin's former town with 4 disabled cars with people
trapped inside, one a woman with 2 kids. Water is over the wheel wells.
Fire and National Guard are responding.

My old stomping grounds in Scituate is really getting clobbered ...
worst in over 30 years despite improvements in sea walls, etc. A TV
reporter nut was standing on the porch of a house about 30 feet from the
seawall and he was getting soaked with spray, along with dodging sea ice
that is being thrown up onto the roofs of houses.

So far we haven't had any power glitches here but I fully expect we'll
lose it in the next hour or so. Wind where I am is gusting 55-60 mph.

Best of luck in all that. I think I'd be getting out the extension cords and prioritizing my
electricity requirements!


Did that yesterday ... that's why I was firing up the Honda to test.

I have a new plan. If power goes out I am going to shut off the main
breaker and then backfeed the generator output through a 15 amp outlet
that's in the shed. It's on the same branch of the split 240v house
supply as the furnace and a couple of rooms. All my lighting is LED, so
that's a tiny load. The generator will run those plus the furnace
system with no problem and I don't need to have extension cords running
anywhere.


Well, you know more about electricity than I do. That's something I'd never try. Came across this
while looking for info. Don't know if it'll help or you already have it down.

http://www.tcscooters.com/backfeed.htm

I like steps 1-3:

If you are going to backfeed your home, you must be very carefully and follow the directions below.
If you fail to follow them you can kill a line worker, kill yourself or blow up your generator.
Again I'll say, get a licensed electrician.

Step One, the most important step of all is to turn off the main breakers.
Step two, turn off the main breakers.
Step three, turn off the main breakers. Do you get the idea?
Step four, remember to plug the generator end in last. If the generator is running and you are using
two male ends the house end plug is live!


A friend of mine bought a kit to do it safely; simple but genius.
Install a 220 breaker right below your 220 mains. They provide a
simple slider that won't let you switch on both breaker sets at
the same time. The newly installed breaker set feeds a new panel
box with a 50 A jack like your RV plugs into. Make up a cord to
connect your genset and you're done. Turn off all load breakers.
Connect the cord at both ends and start the genset then you can
switch the power.



Boats with generators usually have a sliding main so you couldn't have
the boat's generator and shore power connected to the power panel at the
same time.


===

Or in our case, a rotary selector switch for shore power, generator or
inverter.

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On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 19:43:12 -0500, Alex wrote:


Only problem with that is it's hard to tell when the power is back on.

Around here we have smart meters. If there are numbers on the meter
display, the power is on.