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#42
posted to rec.boats
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Yanmar Offers a Turbo Diesel Outboard
On 10/12/17 10:45 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/12/2017 12:33 AM, wrote: On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 17:24:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/11/2017 5:04 PM, wrote: On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 13:10:58 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote: 2:51 PMIts Me - show quoted text - I just read about the Oxe.Â* It uses a 2.0 GM diesel.Â* According to the article is also costs twice what a 200hp Yamaha 4 stroke goes for.Â* Ouch! ..... Diesels 'usually' last longer than a gas job and are much more economical on fuel. But what you save in fuel costs probably don't over ride the massive up front expense of the whole unit.Â*Â* Bad trade off IMO. === Increased range because of greater fuel economy is the most common reason for justifying the higher cost.Â* Diesels use almost 50% less fuel for the same power output, and have higher low end torque. Which also allows bigger, more efficient props running at lower RPM. I was reading an article somewhere else that said the economy might not make the difference in less than 10,000 hours. They also assume higher maintenance cost, particularly with a belt drive. I am curious how the belt is working out on the 7 Marine. Don't know much about it.Â* I do know that I became a diesel fan when my two-foot-itisÂ* caught up to me. When we bought Mrs.E.'sÂ* 1984 Grand Banks I was a little concerned because it had over 7,000 hours on the little Ford Lehman 120 hp diesel and I mentioned my concern to the mechanic who did the pre-purchase inspection.Â*Â* He told me not to worry ... it was just about broken in. I'm heading to the boat show in Annapolis this weekend to see a particular boat that has a Cummins 425 hp diesel. |
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#43
posted to rec.boats
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Yanmar Offers a Turbo Diesel Outboard
On 10/12/2017 1:24 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/12/17 10:45 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 10/12/2017 12:33 AM, wrote: On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 17:24:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/11/2017 5:04 PM, wrote: On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 13:10:58 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote: 2:51 PMIts Me - show quoted text - I just read about the Oxe.Â* It uses a 2.0 GM diesel.Â* According to the article is also costs twice what a 200hp Yamaha 4 stroke goes for.Â* Ouch! ..... Diesels 'usually' last longer than a gas job and are much more economical on fuel. But what you save in fuel costs probably don't over ride the massive up front expense of the whole unit.Â*Â* Bad trade off IMO. === Increased range because of greater fuel economy is the most common reason for justifying the higher cost.Â* Diesels use almost 50% less fuel for the same power output, and have higher low end torque. Which also allows bigger, more efficient props running at lower RPM. I was reading an article somewhere else that said the economy might not make the difference in less than 10,000 hours. They also assume higher maintenance cost, particularly with a belt drive. I am curious how the belt is working out on the 7 Marine. Don't know much about it.Â* I do know that I became a diesel fan when my two-foot-itisÂ* caught up to me. When we bought Mrs.E.'sÂ* 1984 Grand Banks I was a little concerned because it had over 7,000 hours on the little Ford Lehman 120 hp diesel and I mentioned my concern to the mechanic who did the pre-purchase inspection.Â*Â* He told me not to worry ... it was just about broken in. I'm heading to the boat show in Annapolis this weekend to see a particular boat that has a Cummins 425 hp diesel. My birthday is next week. Keep me in mind for a gift if you see something nice in the 36 to 42 foot range. Twin diesels of course. Cat, Cummins, Yanmar, whatever ... I am not fussy. |
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#44
posted to rec.boats
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Yanmar Offers a Turbo Diesel Outboard
wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 12:13:08 -0400, wrote: On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 11:17:07 -0400, wrote: Here's a real world example of the diesel vs gas engine trade off. Our old Bertram 33 had a 320 gallon fuel tank which seems like a lot but it had 454 gas engines which burned 35 gallons per hour. Cruising speed barely reached 18 knots on a good day. Doing the math, you come up with a safe fuel range of less than 140 miles, not enough for offshore canyon fishing in the NY area. Converting to diesel engines, the burn rate drops to about 20 gallons per hour, and cruising speed climbs to 23 knots or so, for a fuel range of around 300 miles. That's a big difference in the capability of the boat and has nothing to do with the price of fuel or reliability. That must be one heavy sommich if 2 454s only get you 18 MPH. The guy around the corner has a 36 (Donzi I think) with 2 250s on it that will cruise in the 30s burning a combined 25-30 GPH or so (a whole lot more at WOT tho) === A Bertram 33 is a much different boat than a Donzi: Heavier close to 20,000 lbs; Beamier; Windage from a full flybridge with enclosure; Full cruising interior. It would do 25 kts wide open with half fuel but I was concientious about keeping the RPMs at no more than 3200 or 3300. The whole point of my comparison excercise was to show that increased fuel range with diesel is often the deciding factor as opposed to fuel cost savings. I do understand the diesel thing. My buddy used to captain a bigger Bertie with 2 6-71s in it for a rich guy (46 or 50 sumpin?). Nice boat. Winter at Pier 66 and summer in Annapolis. He gave it all up for IBM and a family. There were IBM guys who said they would have just swapped jobs ;-) My friend has a 39’ Luhrs. Twin Cummins. They are heavier than a gas engine, but I bet not that much more than a 454. Unlike a 6-71. |
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#45
posted to rec.boats
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Yanmar Offers a Turbo Diesel Outboard
On 10/12/17 2:01 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/12/2017 1:24 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 10/12/17 10:45 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 10/12/2017 12:33 AM, wrote: On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 17:24:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/11/2017 5:04 PM, wrote: On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 13:10:58 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote: 2:51 PMIts Me - show quoted text - I just read about the Oxe.Â* It uses a 2.0 GM diesel.Â* According to the article is also costs twice what a 200hp Yamaha 4 stroke goes for.Â* Ouch! ..... Diesels 'usually' last longer than a gas job and are much more economical on fuel. But what you save in fuel costs probably don't over ride the massive up front expense of the whole unit. Bad trade off IMO. === Increased range because of greater fuel economy is the most common reason for justifying the higher cost.Â* Diesels use almost 50% less fuel for the same power output, and have higher low end torque. Which also allows bigger, more efficient props running at lower RPM. I was reading an article somewhere else that said the economy might not make the difference in less than 10,000 hours. They also assume higher maintenance cost, particularly with a belt drive. I am curious how the belt is working out on the 7 Marine. Don't know much about it.Â* I do know that I became a diesel fan when my two-foot-itisÂ* caught up to me. When we bought Mrs.E.'sÂ* 1984 Grand Banks I was a little concerned because it had over 7,000 hours on the little Ford Lehman 120 hp diesel and I mentioned my concern to the mechanic who did the pre-purchase inspection.Â*Â* He told me not to worry ... it was just about broken in. I'm heading to the boat show in Annapolis this weekend to see a particular boat that has a Cummins 425 hp diesel. My birthday is next week.Â* Keep me in mind for a gift if you see something nice in the 36 to 42 foot range.Â* Twin diesels of course. Cat, Cummins, Yanmar, whatever ... I am not fussy. The nicest boats I've seen in that range are the Beneteau Swift Trawlers...there's a 34/35 footer and a 44 footer. The latter has twin 300 hp diesels. But that's a bit larger than your spec's...  |
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#46
posted to rec.boats
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Yanmar Offers a Turbo Diesel Outboard
On 10/12/2017 2:13 PM, Bill wrote:
wrote: On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 12:13:08 -0400, wrote: On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 11:17:07 -0400, wrote: Here's a real world example of the diesel vs gas engine trade off. Our old Bertram 33 had a 320 gallon fuel tank which seems like a lot but it had 454 gas engines which burned 35 gallons per hour. Cruising speed barely reached 18 knots on a good day. Doing the math, you come up with a safe fuel range of less than 140 miles, not enough for offshore canyon fishing in the NY area. Converting to diesel engines, the burn rate drops to about 20 gallons per hour, and cruising speed climbs to 23 knots or so, for a fuel range of around 300 miles. That's a big difference in the capability of the boat and has nothing to do with the price of fuel or reliability. That must be one heavy sommich if 2 454s only get you 18 MPH. The guy around the corner has a 36 (Donzi I think) with 2 250s on it that will cruise in the 30s burning a combined 25-30 GPH or so (a whole lot more at WOT tho) === A Bertram 33 is a much different boat than a Donzi: Heavier close to 20,000 lbs; Beamier; Windage from a full flybridge with enclosure; Full cruising interior. It would do 25 kts wide open with half fuel but I was concientious about keeping the RPMs at no more than 3200 or 3300. The whole point of my comparison excercise was to show that increased fuel range with diesel is often the deciding factor as opposed to fuel cost savings. I do understand the diesel thing. My buddy used to captain a bigger Bertie with 2 6-71s in it for a rich guy (46 or 50 sumpin?). Nice boat. Winter at Pier 66 and summer in Annapolis. He gave it all up for IBM and a family. There were IBM guys who said they would have just swapped jobs ;-) My friend has a 39’ Luhrs. Twin Cummins. They are heavier than a gas engine, but I bet not that much more than a 454. Unlike a 6-71. I was curious so I looked it up. A fully dressed 454 with cast iron heads weighs 685 lbs from the factory. A Cummins 5.9L diesel by comparison is 1200 lbs or 515 lbs heavier. Twins would mean a weight difference of over 1,000 lbs. That's quite a bit, even for a 39' boat. Major difference is: The 454 develops 450-500 lb-ft of torque at 3200 RPM (depending on year) while the diesel Cummins develops peak torque of 610 lb-ft at 1600 RPM |
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#47
posted to rec.boats
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Yanmar Offers a Turbo Diesel Outboard
On 10/12/2017 2:40 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/12/17 2:01 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 10/12/2017 1:24 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 10/12/17 10:45 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 10/12/2017 12:33 AM, wrote: On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 17:24:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/11/2017 5:04 PM, wrote: On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 13:10:58 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote: 2:51 PMIts Me - show quoted text - I just read about the Oxe.Â* It uses a 2.0 GM diesel.Â* According to the article is also costs twice what a 200hp Yamaha 4 stroke goes for.Â* Ouch! ..... Diesels 'usually' last longer than a gas job and are much more economical on fuel. But what you save in fuel costs probably don't over ride the massive up front expense of the whole unit. Bad trade off IMO. === Increased range because of greater fuel economy is the most common reason for justifying the higher cost.Â* Diesels use almost 50% less fuel for the same power output, and have higher low end torque. Which also allows bigger, more efficient props running at lower RPM. I was reading an article somewhere else that said the economy might not make the difference in less than 10,000 hours. They also assume higher maintenance cost, particularly with a belt drive. I am curious how the belt is working out on the 7 Marine. Don't know much about it.Â* I do know that I became a diesel fan when my two-foot-itisÂ* caught up to me. When we bought Mrs.E.'sÂ* 1984 Grand Banks I was a little concerned because it had over 7,000 hours on the little Ford Lehman 120 hp diesel and I mentioned my concern to the mechanic who did the pre-purchase inspection.Â*Â* He told me not to worry ... it was just about broken in. I'm heading to the boat show in Annapolis this weekend to see a particular boat that has a Cummins 425 hp diesel. My birthday is next week.Â* Keep me in mind for a gift if you see something nice in the 36 to 42 foot range.Â* Twin diesels of course. Cat, Cummins, Yanmar, whatever ... I am not fussy. The nicest boats I've seen in that range are the Beneteau Swift Trawlers...there's a 34/35 footer and a 44 footer. The latter has twin 300 hp diesels. But that's a bit larger than your spec's...Â* What's a couple of feet among friends? I'll take it. Let me know when I should travel down there to pick it up. Thank you very much. |
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#48
posted to rec.boats
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Yanmar Offers a Turbo Diesel Outboard
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 13:11:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 10/12/2017 1:05 PM, wrote: On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 10:52:37 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: THere's something about gas engines running for hours at 3,600 to 4,000 RPM that disturbs me, even though I realize they have cams, etc., that are designed for it. Seem to remember the general rule was 1,000 to 1,500 hours before a rebuild. That must have been a "rule" made when engines were still "detroit iron". Once the Japs showed us you can make a better engine, all of them will run many thousands of hours. My Yamamerc 60 had over 3000 on it with no indication it was in need of anything. I got rid of it because of all of the other $200-500 screw on parts that were nearing end of life. I wasn't referring to outboards. Was talking about I/Os that use car or truck engines like the popular GM 350, 454, Ford 460, etc. OK but these days an engine will easily go 5000 hours or more in a car. There are plenty of 200,000 mile Hondas, Toyotas and even Ford trucks around and most got pretty shoddy maintenance in the last half of their lives. Cars usually get junked because things other than the engine go bad. Hell my 71 Jeep 304 had 170k miles on it when I sold it (running) and same with my 69 Corvette. Those were old technology detroit iron running 70 miles a day on the beltway plus my "around town". Both had the **** kicked out of them. Neither were in salt water tho. I suspect it is corrosion that kills I/Os, at least that has been what I saw. |
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#49
posted to rec.boats
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Yanmar Offers a Turbo Diesel Outboard
On 10/12/2017 4:03 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 13:11:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2017 1:05 PM, wrote: On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 10:52:37 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: THere's something about gas engines running for hours at 3,600 to 4,000 RPM that disturbs me, even though I realize they have cams, etc., that are designed for it. Seem to remember the general rule was 1,000 to 1,500 hours before a rebuild. That must have been a "rule" made when engines were still "detroit iron". Once the Japs showed us you can make a better engine, all of them will run many thousands of hours. My Yamamerc 60 had over 3000 on it with no indication it was in need of anything. I got rid of it because of all of the other $200-500 screw on parts that were nearing end of life. I wasn't referring to outboards. Was talking about I/Os that use car or truck engines like the popular GM 350, 454, Ford 460, etc. OK but these days an engine will easily go 5000 hours or more in a car. There are plenty of 200,000 mile Hondas, Toyotas and even Ford trucks around and most got pretty shoddy maintenance in the last half of their lives. Cars usually get junked because things other than the engine go bad. Hell my 71 Jeep 304 had 170k miles on it when I sold it (running) and same with my 69 Corvette. Those were old technology detroit iron running 70 miles a day on the beltway plus my "around town". Both had the **** kicked out of them. Neither were in salt water tho. I suspect it is corrosion that kills I/Os, at least that has been what I saw. I don't think you can compare the wear and tear of say, a GM 350 V8 used in a car with the marine version of the same engine. Unless you are just trolling around all the time, the marine engine is working at or near full load and at relatively high RPM compared to the car version. The car version, cruising down the highway with the torque converter locked up is only turning about 1600 -1800 RPM at 60-65 mph and is only developing maybe 20 or 30 hp to do it. |
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#50
posted to rec.boats
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Yanmar Offers a Turbo Diesel Outboard
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 16:03:41 -0400, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 13:11:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2017 1:05 PM, wrote: On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 10:52:37 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: THere's something about gas engines running for hours at 3,600 to 4,000 RPM that disturbs me, even though I realize they have cams, etc., that are designed for it. Seem to remember the general rule was 1,000 to 1,500 hours before a rebuild. That must have been a "rule" made when engines were still "detroit iron". Once the Japs showed us you can make a better engine, all of them will run many thousands of hours. My Yamamerc 60 had over 3000 on it with no indication it was in need of anything. I got rid of it because of all of the other $200-500 screw on parts that were nearing end of life. I wasn't referring to outboards. Was talking about I/Os that use car or truck engines like the popular GM 350, 454, Ford 460, etc. OK but these days an engine will easily go 5000 hours or more in a car. There are plenty of 200,000 mile Hondas, Toyotas and even Ford trucks around and most got pretty shoddy maintenance in the last half of their lives. Cars usually get junked because things other than the engine go bad. Hell my 71 Jeep 304 had 170k miles on it when I sold it (running) and same with my 69 Corvette. Those were old technology detroit iron running 70 miles a day on the beltway plus my "around town". Both had the **** kicked out of them. Neither were in salt water tho. I suspect it is corrosion that kills I/Os, at least that has been what I saw. === My I/O mechanic says that most rust out internally before they wear out mechanically. He's talking about salt water engines of course. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com |
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