On 8/15/17 4:12 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 13:22:03 -0400, John H
wrote:



We've not used ours since the rig
was new. Just plan on dumping every four days or so. If there is not sewer and we're going to be
there a while we carry a 'blue boy' along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd_qt_ijuSs


Yuck.

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 16:12:49 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 13:22:03 -0400, John H
wrote:



We've not used ours since the rig
was new. Just plan on dumping every four days or so. If there is not sewer and we're going to be
there a while we carry a 'blue boy' along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd_qt_ijuSs

Mine never gets that bad. Defecation is not permitted in our rig.

On 8/15/2017 1:16 PM, John H wrote:
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:51:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 8/10/2017 1:09 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:59:43 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 8/9/2017 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's
supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch
areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on,


That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single
board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world
country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide
any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge
of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part
you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with
no helpful markings on them.
I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and
trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a
diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v)
Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot?
I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope
it is not a multilayered board.
I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few,
tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most
was not documented and the manufacturer was no help.



So far I have only seen one side of the control panel board. I plan to
remove it completely and inspect it. There are a bunch of tiny diodes
on it that are about the only things I can check (forward and reverse
bias) if I scrape away some of the conformal coating but nothing else is
testable that I can see so far. I think the problem *is* on the PC
board but a replacement is not available.


I have not been riveted to this thread but Justan may be on to
something. How complicated is the task this board accomplishes and can
it be done with a few relays? Those black automotive "ice cube" relays
are pretty robust (30a) and available just about anywhere. Sometime
old school is the way to go.



It's doable but I really don't want to get involved with tracing a whole
bunch of unmarked wires with no diagrams to give you a clue as to where
they go and what they control. Plus, it probably won't fix the level
indicators for the fresh, grey and black water tanks.

I've learned to be a little careful about what to sign up for on other
people's equipment. Back in my Navy days I used to repair or do
convergence and gun drive adjustments old CRT type TV sets, fixed VCR's,
radios, etc. Once you touch it, you become "on call" for any future
problems or issues.


I was telling a friend about this issue. He asked if your friend had contacted the Recreation
Vehicle Industry Association. When I mentioned the rig was a 2013 and the company no longer made the
part, his immediate suggestion was to call RVIA and give them the story. He's been an RV'er a long
time.

RVIA - 703-620-6003



I'll mention it to him but I doubt anyone can do much. Keystone screwed
up royally with this fancy wireless system and won't support it at all
anymore. Even the company who made it for them doesn't support it. Only
made it for not quite two years before dumping it due to all the problems.

I spent the day today trying one last time to find the problem with his
rig. Took the control panel completely apart, down to the three layers
of PC boards. Found a large reverse polarity protection power diode but
it checked good. The rest of the circuitry consisted of chips that I
have no way of testing. Was able to turn various systems on by
jumping 12 volts to different unmarked wires, so the potential to rewire
the whole thing using a panel with real switches instead of the silly
membrane pads that send a signal to the main CPU in the front of the
fiver. I can't believe Keystone went to all this trouble to get fancy
with a panel that has a very simple job to do.

Anyway, am reluctantly going to check into a replacement panel with real
switches and rewire the thing. I really don't want to but I feel I've
invested enough of my time into this now that I want to see success.
Besides, the guy I am helping is really a decent **** but knows
absolutely nothing about wires, switches or electricity.

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 16:40:27 -0400, John H
wrote:

Mine never gets that bad. Defecation is not permitted in our rig.

Hand them an entrenching tool and point them to the woods? ;-)

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 17:20:31 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 8/15/2017 1:16 PM, John H wrote:
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:51:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 8/10/2017 1:09 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:59:43 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 8/9/2017 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's
supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch
areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on,


That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single
board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world
country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide
any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge
of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part
you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with
no helpful markings on them.
I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and
trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a
diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v)
Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot?
I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope
it is not a multilayered board.
I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few,
tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most
was not documented and the manufacturer was no help.



So far I have only seen one side of the control panel board. I plan to
remove it completely and inspect it. There are a bunch of tiny diodes
on it that are about the only things I can check (forward and reverse
bias) if I scrape away some of the conformal coating but nothing else is
testable that I can see so far. I think the problem *is* on the PC
board but a replacement is not available.


I have not been riveted to this thread but Justan may be on to
something. How complicated is the task this board accomplishes and can
it be done with a few relays? Those black automotive "ice cube" relays
are pretty robust (30a) and available just about anywhere. Sometime
old school is the way to go.



It's doable but I really don't want to get involved with tracing a whole
bunch of unmarked wires with no diagrams to give you a clue as to where
they go and what they control. Plus, it probably won't fix the level
indicators for the fresh, grey and black water tanks.

I've learned to be a little careful about what to sign up for on other
people's equipment. Back in my Navy days I used to repair or do
convergence and gun drive adjustments old CRT type TV sets, fixed VCR's,
radios, etc. Once you touch it, you become "on call" for any future
problems or issues.


I was telling a friend about this issue. He asked if your friend had contacted the Recreation
Vehicle Industry Association. When I mentioned the rig was a 2013 and the company no longer made the
part, his immediate suggestion was to call RVIA and give them the story. He's been an RV'er a long
time.

RVIA - 703-620-6003



I'll mention it to him but I doubt anyone can do much. Keystone screwed
up royally with this fancy wireless system and won't support it at all
anymore. Even the company who made it for them doesn't support it. Only
made it for not quite two years before dumping it due to all the problems.

I spent the day today trying one last time to find the problem with his
rig. Took the control panel completely apart, down to the three layers
of PC boards. Found a large reverse polarity protection power diode but
it checked good. The rest of the circuitry consisted of chips that I
have no way of testing. Was able to turn various systems on by
jumping 12 volts to different unmarked wires, so the potential to rewire
the whole thing using a panel with real switches instead of the silly
membrane pads that send a signal to the main CPU in the front of the
fiver. I can't believe Keystone went to all this trouble to get fancy
with a panel that has a very simple job to do.

Anyway, am reluctantly going to check into a replacement panel with real
switches and rewire the thing. I really don't want to but I feel I've
invested enough of my time into this now that I want to see success.
Besides, the guy I am helping is really a decent **** but knows
absolutely nothing about wires, switches or electricity.


Larry, my buddy, thought that there was a requirement somewhere for RV manufacturers to keep parts
available for some amount of time after the rig was made.

Did he try calling Bontrager's?

On 8/15/2017 7:28 PM, John H wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 17:20:31 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 8/15/2017 1:16 PM, John H wrote:
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:51:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 8/10/2017 1:09 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:59:43 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 8/9/2017 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's
supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch
areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on,


That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single
board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world
country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide
any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge
of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part
you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with
no helpful markings on them.
I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and
trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a
diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v)
Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot?
I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope
it is not a multilayered board.
I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few,
tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most
was not documented and the manufacturer was no help.



So far I have only seen one side of the control panel board. I plan to
remove it completely and inspect it. There are a bunch of tiny diodes
on it that are about the only things I can check (forward and reverse
bias) if I scrape away some of the conformal coating but nothing else is
testable that I can see so far. I think the problem *is* on the PC
board but a replacement is not available.


I have not been riveted to this thread but Justan may be on to
something. How complicated is the task this board accomplishes and can
it be done with a few relays? Those black automotive "ice cube" relays
are pretty robust (30a) and available just about anywhere. Sometime
old school is the way to go.



It's doable but I really don't want to get involved with tracing a whole
bunch of unmarked wires with no diagrams to give you a clue as to where
they go and what they control. Plus, it probably won't fix the level
indicators for the fresh, grey and black water tanks.

I've learned to be a little careful about what to sign up for on other
people's equipment. Back in my Navy days I used to repair or do
convergence and gun drive adjustments old CRT type TV sets, fixed VCR's,
radios, etc. Once you touch it, you become "on call" for any future
problems or issues.


I was telling a friend about this issue. He asked if your friend had contacted the Recreation
Vehicle Industry Association. When I mentioned the rig was a 2013 and the company no longer made the
part, his immediate suggestion was to call RVIA and give them the story. He's been an RV'er a long
time.

RVIA - 703-620-6003



I'll mention it to him but I doubt anyone can do much. Keystone screwed
up royally with this fancy wireless system and won't support it at all
anymore. Even the company who made it for them doesn't support it. Only
made it for not quite two years before dumping it due to all the problems.

I spent the day today trying one last time to find the problem with his
rig. Took the control panel completely apart, down to the three layers
of PC boards. Found a large reverse polarity protection power diode but
it checked good. The rest of the circuitry consisted of chips that I
have no way of testing. Was able to turn various systems on by
jumping 12 volts to different unmarked wires, so the potential to rewire
the whole thing using a panel with real switches instead of the silly
membrane pads that send a signal to the main CPU in the front of the
fiver. I can't believe Keystone went to all this trouble to get fancy
with a panel that has a very simple job to do.

Anyway, am reluctantly going to check into a replacement panel with real
switches and rewire the thing. I really don't want to but I feel I've
invested enough of my time into this now that I want to see success.
Besides, the guy I am helping is really a decent **** but knows
absolutely nothing about wires, switches or electricity.


Larry, my buddy, thought that there was a requirement somewhere for RV manufacturers to keep parts
available for some amount of time after the rig was made.

Did he try calling Bontrager's?


Who is Bontrager's?

He has tried everyone from Keystone to the company who they
subcontracted the wireless control system from. They don't sell
replacements or support the particular system he has. I've done a lot
of research on it and it has many people who have had the same problem
with it. Only solution is to replace it with a new panel that doesn't
rely on the wireless feature.

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 21:17:43 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


He has tried everyone from Keystone to the company who they
subcontracted the wireless control system from. They don't sell
replacements or support the particular system he has. I've done a lot
of research on it and it has many people who have had the same problem
with it. Only solution is to replace it with a new panel that doesn't
rely on the wireless feature.


This RV business makes boats look like a cheap hobby

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/15/2017 7:28 PM, John H wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 17:20:31 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 8/15/2017 1:16 PM, John H wrote:
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:51:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 8/10/2017 1:09 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:59:43 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 8/9/2017 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's
supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch
areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on,


That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single
board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world
country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide
any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge
of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part
you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with
no helpful markings on them.
I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and
trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a
diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v)
Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot?
I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope
it is not a multilayered board.
I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few,
tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most
was not documented and the manufacturer was no help.



So far I have only seen one side of the control panel board. I plan to
remove it completely and inspect it. There are a bunch of tiny diodes
on it that are about the only things I can check (forward and reverse
bias) if I scrape away some of the conformal coating but nothing else is
testable that I can see so far. I think the problem *is* on the PC
board but a replacement is not available.


I have not been riveted to this thread but Justan may be on to
something. How complicated is the task this board accomplishes and can
it be done with a few relays? Those black automotive "ice cube" relays
are pretty robust (30a) and available just about anywhere. Sometime
old school is the way to go.



It's doable but I really don't want to get involved with tracing a whole
bunch of unmarked wires with no diagrams to give you a clue as to where
they go and what they control. Plus, it probably won't fix the level
indicators for the fresh, grey and black water tanks.

I've learned to be a little careful about what to sign up for on other
people's equipment. Back in my Navy days I used to repair or do
convergence and gun drive adjustments old CRT type TV sets, fixed VCR's,
radios, etc. Once you touch it, you become "on call" for any future
problems or issues.


I was telling a friend about this issue. He asked if your friend had
contacted the Recreation
Vehicle Industry Association. When I mentioned the rig was a 2013 and
the company no longer made the
part, his immediate suggestion was to call RVIA and give them the
story. He's been an RV'er a long
time.

RVIA - 703-620-6003



I'll mention it to him but I doubt anyone can do much. Keystone screwed
up royally with this fancy wireless system and won't support it at all
anymore. Even the company who made it for them doesn't support it. Only
made it for not quite two years before dumping it due to all the problems.

I spent the day today trying one last time to find the problem with his
rig. Took the control panel completely apart, down to the three layers
of PC boards. Found a large reverse polarity protection power diode but
it checked good. The rest of the circuitry consisted of chips that I
have no way of testing. Was able to turn various systems on by
jumping 12 volts to different unmarked wires, so the potential to rewire
the whole thing using a panel with real switches instead of the silly
membrane pads that send a signal to the main CPU in the front of the
fiver. I can't believe Keystone went to all this trouble to get fancy
with a panel that has a very simple job to do.

Anyway, am reluctantly going to check into a replacement panel with real
switches and rewire the thing. I really don't want to but I feel I've
invested enough of my time into this now that I want to see success.
Besides, the guy I am helping is really a decent **** but knows
absolutely nothing about wires, switches or electricity.


Larry, my buddy, thought that there was a requirement somewhere for RV
manufacturers to keep parts
available for some amount of time after the rig was made.

Did he try calling Bontrager's?


Who is Bontrager's?

He has tried everyone from Keystone to the company who they
subcontracted the wireless control system from. They don't sell
replacements or support the particular system he has. I've done a lot
of research on it and it has many people who have had the same problem
with it. Only solution is to replace it with a new panel that doesn't
rely on the wireless feature.




Design it, and sell the design.

On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 02:27:05 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:


He has tried everyone from Keystone to the company who they
subcontracted the wireless control system from. They don't sell
replacements or support the particular system he has. I've done a lot
of research on it and it has many people who have had the same problem
with it. Only solution is to replace it with a new panel that doesn't
rely on the wireless feature.




Design it, and sell the design.

I suspect that this is such a niche market that it is not worth the
effort to set up a line and build them. It might be an idea for a guy
who wants to run an Ebay business out of his garage but that does not
sound like Richard.
OTOH my neighbor went down to Marco to see the guy who is "Gem boat
lift controllers" and that is exactly who he is. He seems to being
doing OK. Of course there are a lot more boat lifts than that
particular RV.

On 8/16/2017 12:14 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 02:27:05 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:


He has tried everyone from Keystone to the company who they
subcontracted the wireless control system from. They don't sell
replacements or support the particular system he has. I've done a lot
of research on it and it has many people who have had the same problem
with it. Only solution is to replace it with a new panel that doesn't
rely on the wireless feature.




Design it, and sell the design.

I suspect that this is such a niche market that it is not worth the
effort to set up a line and build them. It might be an idea for a guy
who wants to run an Ebay business out of his garage but that does not
sound like Richard.
OTOH my neighbor went down to Marco to see the guy who is "Gem boat
lift controllers" and that is exactly who he is. He seems to being
doing OK. Of course there are a lot more boat lifts than that
particular RV.


You are spot on about the niche market. Believe it or not, I thought
about making replacement panels. I searched for some data as to how
many of these wireless systems might be out there and I doubt there are
enough to make the whole process of getting panels silkscreened or
etched, picking out a supplier for decent looking switches and having
the panels punched for them, etc. The system was also used in some
other Keystone models but the panels are totally different. For the
work and investment required, it just wouldn't be worth it.

For my friend, I found some used Cougar panels from years before and
after they tried the fancy wireless system. I'll get one of them and
mount some switches and led indicators on it. The panel isn't the same
physical size, so we'll have to modify the hole in the wall where it mounts.