Yo Calif Bill
 

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 6:59:37 PM UTC-6, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/4/16 6:27 PM, Tim wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 5:11:49 PM UTC-6, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 3/4/2016 3:46 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 15:13:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 2:57 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 13:51:52 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 1:33 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/4/16 1:00 PM, Tim wrote:
11:46
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 02:37:36 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:
- show quoted text -
If you can get the generator for $3500, why would it cost $6500 to
hook it up? I suspect they were charging you quite a bit more for the
gen set. It sounds like you already had most of the infrastructure in
place anyway.
In my case the gas line is roughed in with a valve on a capped pipe
(when they plumbed in the pool heater) and I would need about 50' of
2ga aluminum SER cable ($80 or so). I doubt I would spend more than
$300-400 to install it. This thing comes with the transfer switch. I
thought that was a good price but Harry would not let that stand..
--------
Some people think that if it costs way more then it has to be better.


Some people would prefer to have the job done by properly trained,
experience, and insured licensed contractors and workers.


In some places it's the only way to get a permit to do it
and it can become a problem if major changes or additions
are made to a property by DIY'ers when it comes time to sell it.


Homeowners can pull permits here. I was the "owner builder" for my
driveway, the addition and the pool.
Of course we are not one of those northern mobbed up union states.
The reality is, Maryland isn't either. I was owner builder for my 2
additions there too. Both were fairly extensive. The biggest one
included a structural, plumbing, electrical, roofing, grading,
driveway and HVAC permit along with a DOT permit to cross the right of
way.
I got all of them in one day. Amazing I thought. That was 1977 and I
bet it is harder now.
I hired a mason for the concrete and block/brick but I did the rest
myself. That has been my policy since. I can do concrete and block but
I am slower than I want it to go.
I went from this
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/72house.jpg
to this
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/1977%20house.jpg



1977. Almost 40 years ago. Things have changed a bit.


I suppose I could look it up but I bet homeowners can still pull
permits in Maryland. I know they can here.



As far as I know homeowers can pull permits here also but some projects
require a licensed whatever to actually do or supervise the work.
Depends on what the project is. The average weekend warrior cannot
possibly be current on the ever changing building and electrical codes..
For example, years ago
I ran some heavy duty speaker wire in some walls in a room in the
basement that we were finishing. Perfectly acceptable then but not now.
You have to use a special wire designed for that purpose because it was
discovered that ordinary speaker wire ... even 12 ga ... allowed a fire
to travel along it like a fuse.


That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms, no...


That's scary.

why? Because you don't trust your own work?

Yo Calif Bill
 

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 19:49:46 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:

How about the insurance company that has to pick up the tab?

This does bring up an interesting point.
Insurance companies are in the risk business and if this was so risky,
we should expect that his homeowner's insurance would be out of sight.
Tim, what do you pay per $100,000 in coverage?
How bout you Harry? Richard?

That would be an impartial indicator, made by underwriters who do this
for a living and actually have skin in the game

Yo Calif Bill
 

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 20:08:12 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:

On 3/4/16 5:58 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:15:48 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:

On 3/4/16 4:08 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 15:13:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

1977. Almost 40 years ago. Things have changed a bit.


From Harry's county web site
"Property owners may construct their own dwelling on their own
property without a license (with proper permits). "

Since these are generally state law, I am sure I could do it in PG
too. I do agree, the process is more complicated these days but that
is what happens when the government gets to be out of control. The
inspection process has not changed much and that is where safety comes
in.



Why is the government out of control? The electrician and plumber who
did my genny got their permits without delays or difficulties, and the
inspectors came out in short order.

I simply what qualifies for a fast tracked (while you wait) on the
Calvert County web site. They are really just for things that should
not really need one anyway. (sheds, decks etc) At a certain point it
is just a building tax.

Improperly built decks collapse and kill or maim people, but, I suppose,
if you are a loonytarian, anyone who steps onto a deck should know the
risks.

Old, legally built decks can collapse too, what's your point?
Should they have a continuing program of inspections?

I understand the nanny state would try to legislate away all risk but
at a certain point it just becomes another form of tyranny or more
often, just another tax.

Yo Calif Bill
 

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 20:16:30 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:

On 3/4/16 5:59 PM, wrote:


Yeah you managed to put a gas block in an AR, all by yourself.


First I had to unpin it, remove it and grind it into shape, and then
reinstall it with the pins.

Sounds exhausting

I guess I could have sent it to you, but,
then, I'd have no assurance it would work properly upon getting it back.

If I had the rifle to fit it to it would work fine. I do have some
ordinance training from Uncle Sam.

You impress me as a "press on regardless" sort of home improvement guy.

I get by

I'd never hire you.

I wouldn't work for you, or anyone else. It would be illegal.

Yo Calif Bill
 

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 20:32:45 -0500, Alex wrote:


I'm supposed to get a permit to install/replace a ceiling fan. They
just want to collect your money. How is a ceiling fan replacement going
to be inspected? I guess they might flip the switch to see if it runs.
They also want a permit for a faucet replacement.

We have one AHJ here who wants a permit for any device replacement.
(receptacle, switch etc) I can only think that building is so slow in
his patch that they are really looking for work. Even the other
inspectors at my meetings think he is off the reservation.

Yo Calif Bill
 

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 17:35:35 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 5:58:27 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:15:48 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:

On 3/4/16 4:08 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 15:13:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

1977. Almost 40 years ago. Things have changed a bit.


From Harry's county web site
"Property owners may construct their own dwelling on their own
property without a license (with proper permits). "

Since these are generally state law, I am sure I could do it in PG
too. I do agree, the process is more complicated these days but that
is what happens when the government gets to be out of control. The
inspection process has not changed much and that is where safety comes
in.



Why is the government out of control? The electrician and plumber who
did my genny got their permits without delays or difficulties, and the
inspectors came out in short order.

I simply what qualifies for a fast tracked (while you wait) on the
Calvert County web site. They are really just for things that should
not really need one anyway. (sheds, decks etc) At a certain point it
is just a building tax.
Permits here are tougher than they are in Maryland but it is mostly
just corporate welfare, benefitting people with a large compliance
department over the small guy. That is true of most government
regulation tho. If you can send a bunch of lawyers and some carefully
targeted campaign contributions, regulation really does not apply to
you.

And permits are just vehicles to let the tax man know that you are improving the property. So they can up your tax bill in the next cycle.

Around here, taxes are not really dependent on permits. I have done a
few things without a permit but it still showed up promptly on my
taxes. They look at aerials every year and do an on site inspection
about every 2 years. They don't really do the inspections sequentially
by address so they may be there to look at your neighbor's house but
they still may take a peek at yours.

Yo Calif Bill
 

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 21:35:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:



I find your thinking on this subject to be somewhat conflicting but also
amusing. On one hand you dismiss the importance of
having qualified and licensed people doing structural or electrical
work on homes or whatever yet you brag about your 8 years of being
a super sleuth "inspector" of other people's work.


It was just a hobby for me and I was paid by the hour per inspection
so there was no reason to rush. I was probably the easiest going
inspector any of these guys have ever dealt with, since I really did
not have any "red tags" and no real attitude about who I was. I got
compliance by cajoling them into just doing their job. Most were
state employees so they would get paid either way and there was not
really much I could do to them.
In a few cases I actually fixed the violations myself.

The contractors were actually better and I did have a little weight
over them because I could hold up their pay.

The best pure mechanics were inmates in the prisons. They had all the
time in the world and a desire to keep their job.

I do think it is important to hire qualified people but I am just not
sure the current licensing and inspection process guarantees that.
Certainly not in Florida. The biggest complaint you hear at an
inspector meeting is about the lack of workmanship among the trades
and how little they can do about it. The codes just take a sideways
swipe at workmanship and without a specific violation, there is not
much you can do about sloppy. You can go to just about any inspector
web site and look at egregious violation pictures of work done by so
called "qualified" people.

If for no other reason, the home owner should be trying to do a good
job, because he has to live there. Things I build exceed the code as a
general rule.

Yo Calif Bill
 

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 21:39:27 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I'll say one thing though ... I'll do a ceiling fan anyday but when it
comes to plumbing ... no way. Plumbing and I don't get along. Never
did, never will.


Plumbing (old work) is just nasty but if you are willing to cut it all
out and start over it is not really that tough.. Particularly with
plastic pipe. Back in the olden days with cast iron and galvanized
there was a level of skill involved. Copper actually made that fairly
easy if you knew how to sweat pipe. PVC made it childs play.
The tricky thing is when you get to vents and drains. I have taken a
few classes in it and it really is not that complicated if you can
step back and understand where the potential siphons are.
We had one instructor who really made the whole thing easy to
understand without getting into all of the code language, which is
tortured to say the least. Once you understand the concepts involved,
the code starts making sense.

I am required to take a certain number of continuing education hours
every 2 years but 8 hours of that can be an "elective" and I usually
try for something that is not electrical since I already spend plenty
of time online discussing code issues. I always end up with far more
hours than I need anyway. There are plenty of opportunities for free
classes and I take them when I can.
In spite of what Harry thinks, I spend a lot of time in a learning
environment, it is just not modern european art so I guess it doesn't
count.

Yo Calif Bill
 

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 21:50:35 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


rec.boats is certainly full of fascinating outlooks on many subjects.

I have a pretty fair knowledge of electrical power distribution but I am
far from being an electrician. When it comes to *major* electrical
installations in my house I hire an electrician who is current on the
codes. Many things that have changed since knob and tube wiring. :-)

You guys are on the 14 code so there are lots of changes, just since
the 11.
Most of the stuff around the service really hasn't changed much since
the Clinton administration and the biggest changes were no more 3 wire
dryer/range plugs and 4 wire feeders to your out buildings.
As Phil Simmonds said in the proposal, the war is over, we don't need
to save the copper.
The big ongoing changes are around GFCIs and AFCIs. In the 14 you have
very few places that do not require an AFCI.
There are also required tamper resistant receptacles damn near
everywhere and weather resistant receptacles outside. That is probably
the most important for the weekend warrior if you want to stay
compliant.
There are a number of publications every cycle about significant
changes. This is a free one (the PP slides for a presentation I
attended)

http://www.necanet.org/docs/default-...f.pdf?sfvrsn=0

Yo Calif Bill
 

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 20:54:14 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

How about a fireman who while performing his job is killed by the
failure of under-spec'd products or techniques?

firemen take that risk daily. fires ignite by a faulty whatever, even when new buildings are up to code.

It happens.

Yes, Chicago may be one of the most dangerous place for firemen to
work and they have the strictest electrical code in the nation along
with union rules that assures you have a journeyman twisting every
wire nut and pulling every wire (or at least standing there watching
an apprentice do it)