Yo Calif Bill
 

On 3/4/2016 6:27 PM, Tim wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 5:11:49 PM UTC-6, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 3/4/2016 3:46 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 15:13:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 2:57 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 13:51:52 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 1:33 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/4/16 1:00 PM, Tim wrote:
11:46
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 02:37:36 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:
- show quoted text -
If you can get the generator for $3500, why would it cost $6500 to
hook it up? I suspect they were charging you quite a bit more for the
gen set. It sounds like you already had most of the infrastructure in
place anyway.
In my case the gas line is roughed in with a valve on a capped pipe
(when they plumbed in the pool heater) and I would need about 50' of
2ga aluminum SER cable ($80 or so). I doubt I would spend more than
$300-400 to install it. This thing comes with the transfer switch. I
thought that was a good price but Harry would not let that stand.
--------
Some people think that if it costs way more then it has to be better.


Some people would prefer to have the job done by properly trained,
experience, and insured licensed contractors and workers.


In some places it's the only way to get a permit to do it
and it can become a problem if major changes or additions
are made to a property by DIY'ers when it comes time to sell it.


Homeowners can pull permits here. I was the "owner builder" for my
driveway, the addition and the pool.
Of course we are not one of those northern mobbed up union states.
The reality is, Maryland isn't either. I was owner builder for my 2
additions there too. Both were fairly extensive. The biggest one
included a structural, plumbing, electrical, roofing, grading,
driveway and HVAC permit along with a DOT permit to cross the right of
way.
I got all of them in one day. Amazing I thought. That was 1977 and I
bet it is harder now.
I hired a mason for the concrete and block/brick but I did the rest
myself. That has been my policy since. I can do concrete and block but
I am slower than I want it to go.
I went from this
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/72house.jpg
to this
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/1977%20house.jpg



1977. Almost 40 years ago. Things have changed a bit.


I suppose I could look it up but I bet homeowners can still pull
permits in Maryland. I know they can here.



As far as I know homeowers can pull permits here also but some projects
require a licensed whatever to actually do or supervise the work.
Depends on what the project is. The average weekend warrior cannot
possibly be current on the ever changing building and electrical codes.
For example, years ago
I ran some heavy duty speaker wire in some walls in a room in the
basement that we were finishing. Perfectly acceptable then but not now.
You have to use a special wire designed for that purpose because it was
discovered that ordinary speaker wire ... even 12 ga ... allowed a fire
to travel along it like a fuse.



That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms, no...


Why is that an advantage?

Yo Calif Bill
 

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 18:11:43 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 3:46 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 15:13:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 2:57 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 13:51:52 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 1:33 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/4/16 1:00 PM, Tim wrote:
11:46
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 02:37:36 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:
- show quoted text -
If you can get the generator for $3500, why would it cost $6500 to
hook it up? I suspect they were charging you quite a bit more for the
gen set. It sounds like you already had most of the infrastructure in
place anyway.
In my case the gas line is roughed in with a valve on a capped pipe
(when they plumbed in the pool heater) and I would need about 50' of
2ga aluminum SER cable ($80 or so). I doubt I would spend more than
$300-400 to install it. This thing comes with the transfer switch. I
thought that was a good price but Harry would not let that stand.
--------
Some people think that if it costs way more then it has to be better.


Some people would prefer to have the job done by properly trained,
experience, and insured licensed contractors and workers.


In some places it's the only way to get a permit to do it
and it can become a problem if major changes or additions
are made to a property by DIY'ers when it comes time to sell it.


Homeowners can pull permits here. I was the "owner builder" for my
driveway, the addition and the pool.
Of course we are not one of those northern mobbed up union states.
The reality is, Maryland isn't either. I was owner builder for my 2
additions there too. Both were fairly extensive. The biggest one
included a structural, plumbing, electrical, roofing, grading,
driveway and HVAC permit along with a DOT permit to cross the right of
way.
I got all of them in one day. Amazing I thought. That was 1977 and I
bet it is harder now.
I hired a mason for the concrete and block/brick but I did the rest
myself. That has been my policy since. I can do concrete and block but
I am slower than I want it to go.
I went from this
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/72house.jpg
to this
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/1977%20house.jpg



1977. Almost 40 years ago. Things have changed a bit.


I suppose I could look it up but I bet homeowners can still pull
permits in Maryland. I know they can here.



As far as I know homeowers can pull permits here also but some projects
require a licensed whatever to actually do or supervise the work.
Depends on what the project is. The average weekend warrior cannot
possibly be current on the ever changing building and electrical codes.
For example, years ago
I ran some heavy duty speaker wire in some walls in a room in the
basement that we were finishing. Perfectly acceptable then but not now.
You have to use a special wire designed for that purpose because it was
discovered that ordinary speaker wire ... even 12 ga ... allowed a fire
to travel along it like a fuse.

Yup, wire inside a wall needs to be CMR (riser) or CMP (plenum) rated.
Most actually is CMR but an inspector wants to see it printed on the
jacket. That is not really a new requirement. We were hearing about it
in the 60s at IBM. It must just be that enforcement was stepped up
where you are.

Yo Calif Bill
 

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 18:32:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms, no...


Why is that an advantage?

Because people are responsible for their own destiny?
If Tim's house burns down, why is that anybody else's business?

I have been through this process myself several times and my wife
built over 100 houses. Trust me the permit and inspection process is
just a feel good program that employs a lot of bureaucrats. I used to
have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day
but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a
significant percentage of everything. Your typical muni inspector
leaves the shop with 20 or 30 cards in his pocket, spread out over a
county. He is not really looking at much.
The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at
but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them
a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed.
I was working on a lot of pretty interesting projects tho.

Yo Calif Bill
 

On 3/4/2016 6:54 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 18:32:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms, no...


Why is that an advantage?

Because people are responsible for their own destiny?
If Tim's house burns down, why is that anybody else's business?

You can't be serious. How about the people who may someday buy Tim's
house full of unpermited and un-inspected for basic safety purposes?
(Not doubting Tim ... just using him as an example since he said
permits are not required where he lives for residential buildings).

How about unsuspecting guests that may be staying in a DIYurselfer abode
full of "modifications"?

There are certainly many things a homeowner should and can do without
a permit. But major changes ... structural or electrical ... should
require a permit and a followup inspection for code and safety.





I have been through this process myself several times and my wife
built over 100 houses. Trust me the permit and inspection process is
just a feel good program that employs a lot of bureaucrats. I used to
have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day
but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a
significant percentage of everything. Your typical muni inspector
leaves the shop with 20 or 30 cards in his pocket, spread out over a
county. He is not really looking at much.
The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at
but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them
a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed.
I was working on a lot of pretty interesting projects tho.

I guess you are special. But most inspectors know what they are looking
for since they do it on a regular basis and they get to know who does
good work and who doesn't. My son-in-law is a licensed electrician with
his own business. The inspectors in the towns he does work have gotten
to know him and the type of work he does. They can tell with just a
cursory inspection his work is to code and is done correctly.

Yo Calif Bill
 

On 3/4/16 7:11 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 3/4/2016 6:54 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 18:32:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building
permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms,
no...


Why is that an advantage?

Because people are responsible for their own destiny?
If Tim's house burns down, why is that anybody else's business?

You can't be serious. How about the people who may someday buy Tim's
house full of unpermited and un-inspected for basic safety purposes?
(Not doubting Tim ... just using him as an example since he said
permits are not required where he lives for residential buildings).

How about unsuspecting guests that may be staying in a DIYurselfer abode
full of "modifications"?

There are certainly many things a homeowner should and can do without
a permit. But major changes ... structural or electrical ... should
require a permit and a followup inspection for code and safety.





I have been through this process myself several times and my wife
built over 100 houses. Trust me the permit and inspection process is
just a feel good program that employs a lot of bureaucrats. I used to
have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day
but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a
significant percentage of everything. Your typical muni inspector
leaves the shop with 20 or 30 cards in his pocket, spread out over a
county. He is not really looking at much.
The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at
but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them
a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed.
I was working on a lot of pretty interesting projects tho.

I guess you are special. But most inspectors know what they are looking
for since they do it on a regular basis and they get to know who does
good work and who doesn't. My son-in-law is a licensed electrician with
his own business. The inspectors in the towns he does work have gotten
to know him and the type of work he does. They can tell with just a
cursory inspection his work is to code and is done correctly.



It's loonytarianism rearing its anti-civilization head. Really,

Yo Calif Bill
 

On 3/4/16 6:54 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 18:32:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms, no...


Why is that an advantage?

Because people are responsible for their own destiny?
If Tim's house burns down, why is that anybody else's business?

How about the insurance company that has to pick up the tab?
How about a future buyer?
How about a fireman who while performing his job is killed by the
failure of under-spec'd products or techniques?

Yo Calif Bill
 

On 3/4/16 6:27 PM, Tim wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 5:11:49 PM UTC-6, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 3/4/2016 3:46 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 15:13:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 2:57 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 13:51:52 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 1:33 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/4/16 1:00 PM, Tim wrote:
11:46
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 02:37:36 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:
- show quoted text -
If you can get the generator for $3500, why would it cost $6500 to
hook it up? I suspect they were charging you quite a bit more for the
gen set. It sounds like you already had most of the infrastructure in
place anyway.
In my case the gas line is roughed in with a valve on a capped pipe
(when they plumbed in the pool heater) and I would need about 50' of
2ga aluminum SER cable ($80 or so). I doubt I would spend more than
$300-400 to install it. This thing comes with the transfer switch. I
thought that was a good price but Harry would not let that stand.
--------
Some people think that if it costs way more then it has to be better.


Some people would prefer to have the job done by properly trained,
experience, and insured licensed contractors and workers.


In some places it's the only way to get a permit to do it
and it can become a problem if major changes or additions
are made to a property by DIY'ers when it comes time to sell it.


Homeowners can pull permits here. I was the "owner builder" for my
driveway, the addition and the pool.
Of course we are not one of those northern mobbed up union states.
The reality is, Maryland isn't either. I was owner builder for my 2
additions there too. Both were fairly extensive. The biggest one
included a structural, plumbing, electrical, roofing, grading,
driveway and HVAC permit along with a DOT permit to cross the right of
way.
I got all of them in one day. Amazing I thought. That was 1977 and I
bet it is harder now.
I hired a mason for the concrete and block/brick but I did the rest
myself. That has been my policy since. I can do concrete and block but
I am slower than I want it to go.
I went from this
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/72house.jpg
to this
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/1977%20house.jpg



1977. Almost 40 years ago. Things have changed a bit.


I suppose I could look it up but I bet homeowners can still pull
permits in Maryland. I know they can here.



As far as I know homeowers can pull permits here also but some projects
require a licensed whatever to actually do or supervise the work.
Depends on what the project is. The average weekend warrior cannot
possibly be current on the ever changing building and electrical codes.
For example, years ago
I ran some heavy duty speaker wire in some walls in a room in the
basement that we were finishing. Perfectly acceptable then but not now.
You have to use a special wire designed for that purpose because it was
discovered that ordinary speaker wire ... even 12 ga ... allowed a fire
to travel along it like a fuse.


That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms, no...


That's scary.

Yo Calif Bill
 

On 3/4/16 5:58 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:15:48 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:

On 3/4/16 4:08 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 15:13:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

1977. Almost 40 years ago. Things have changed a bit.


From Harry's county web site
"Property owners may construct their own dwelling on their own
property without a license (with proper permits). "

Since these are generally state law, I am sure I could do it in PG
too. I do agree, the process is more complicated these days but that
is what happens when the government gets to be out of control. The
inspection process has not changed much and that is where safety comes
in.



Why is the government out of control? The electrician and plumber who
did my genny got their permits without delays or difficulties, and the
inspectors came out in short order.

I simply what qualifies for a fast tracked (while you wait) on the
Calvert County web site. They are really just for things that should
not really need one anyway. (sheds, decks etc) At a certain point it
is just a building tax.

Improperly built decks collapse and kill or maim people, but, I suppose,
if you are a loonytarian, anyone who steps onto a deck should know the
risks.

Yo Calif Bill
 

On 3/4/16 5:59 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:35:48 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:

On 3/4/16 4:31 PM, Tim wrote:
2:12 PMKeyser Söze
- hide quoted text -
Tim wrote:
12:33 PMKeyser Söze
- show quoted text -
Some people would prefer to have the job done by properly trained,
experience, and insured licensed contractors and workers.
-----

The properly trained, experienced, and insured licensed contractor
charged me $150.00 to finish mine. I did everything else myself. When you
know code, you can do code. He liked my side over and said I did better
than spec (higher gauge) wire and signed it off too.


How wonderful for you.
- show quoted text
-----

Yes I was pretty proud of myself especially knowing I don't have to hire everything done in my life


Neither do I.

Yeah you managed to put a gas block in an AR, all by yourself.


First I had to unpin it, remove it and grind it into shape, and then
reinstall it with the pins. I guess I could have sent it to you, but,
then, I'd have no assurance it would work properly upon getting it back.

You impress me as a "press on regardless" sort of home improvement guy.
I'd never hire you.

Yo Calif Bill
 

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 19:11:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 6:54 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 18:32:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms, no...


Why is that an advantage?

Because people are responsible for their own destiny?
If Tim's house burns down, why is that anybody else's business?

You can't be serious. How about the people who may someday buy Tim's
house full of unpermited and un-inspected for basic safety purposes?
(Not doubting Tim ... just using him as an example since he said
permits are not required where he lives for residential buildings).

Caveat Emptor? If they live in a place where they know there was no
building code process, they need to do their due diligence.
There is still no guarantee that a homeowner did unpermitted work,
even in your town. Perhaps it is actually better if you don't have
this illusion of safety.


How about unsuspecting guests that may be staying in a DIYurselfer abode
full of "modifications"?


I could say the same thing about a dozen other things that may be
lurking in a house. You are probably more likely to be bitten by a dog
and then there are the guns ;-)

I suspect you will find they have a lot more fires in places with
strict building codes than places without because the homeowners are
generally more aware of their responsibilities.

There are certainly many things a homeowner should and can do without
a permit. But major changes ... structural or electrical ... should
require a permit and a followup inspection for code and safety.

Most fires are caused by the stuff the home owner plugs in, not the
building wiring.


I have been through this process myself several times and my wife
built over 100 houses. Trust me the permit and inspection process is
just a feel good program that employs a lot of bureaucrats. I used to
have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day
but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a
significant percentage of everything. Your typical muni inspector
leaves the shop with 20 or 30 cards in his pocket, spread out over a
county. He is not really looking at much.
The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at
but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them
a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed.
I was working on a lot of pretty interesting projects tho.

I guess you are special. But most inspectors know what they are looking
for since they do it on a regular basis and they get to know who does
good work and who doesn't. My son-in-law is a licensed electrician with
his own business. The inspectors in the towns he does work have gotten
to know him and the type of work he does. They can tell with just a
cursory inspection his work is to code and is done correctly.


Like I said the illusion of safety. You are saying they just trust the
guy doing the work to never screw up.
Most residential contractors are hiring other people to do the work.

I don't know much about Massachusetts but in Florida and Maryland, the
contractor is licensed but the guy actually twisting the wirenut will
be anything from a carded journeyman to a guy they just hired last
week. Anyone with a rusty pair of Kliens and a mouth full of wirenuts
could call himself an electrician when the housing boom was going and
I bet it is getting that way again.
The contractor is only as good as the worst guy on his team, on his
worst day. The inspector is only spot checking the work. "Drive by"
inspections are more common than the AHJs want to admit.

I wouldn't just pick on residential. When I was at IBM and also an
inspector, I had a standing bet that I could find a violation just
about anywhere we were. I never bought my own coffee if they were
willing to play.