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Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. |
Windows XP end of support
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Windows XP end of support
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:06:51 -0500, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. It's especially important to remember in a decreasing radius turn, when the only way to get through it is to push down harder on the lower bar. Or just panic and hit the ditch, tree, abutment, etc. |
Windows XP end of support
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 09:30:47 -0500, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 7:48 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 06:41:28 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 1:17 AM, wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:37:24 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: Ok. Whatever you say. I quit. Not worth the effort anymore. and overdue. I think most of us know a gyro precesses 90 degrees to the force in the direction of rotation. try to push the left side of the axle forward, it will move down. Wow, no ****.... But still, I showed several bikes turning left, wheels turned left.... And at least I didn't spend my day just ****ing with someone here. Thought I was helping someone, but finally figured more than one is here just to play.... Scotty, I spent a good part of yesterday trying to explain to you what really happens when you turn a motorcycle. You chose not to believe it, came up with ridiculous 'arguments', put up a picture of a dirt bike in a slide, argued against Wikipedia, expert rider videos, and a Motorcycle Safety Instructor. Then you started putting bull**** words in my mouth and comparing me to Harry and Kevin. After trying to keep a level head, I gave up. That's when I said I'd just made up the whole thing. By looking at Google, Wikipedia, videos, etc, you should have realized I was bull****ting when I said I made it all up. But I'm thinking that was the only thing you took seriously. OK, here's the real poop. Steering a motorcycle at more that 'parking lot' speeds is done using a technique called counter steering. The technique is called 'counter steering' because it is 'counter' to the way we learned how to turn a tricycle. On a motorcycle, we push left to go left, and push right to go right, as was explained in numerous videos, Wikipedia, and over a million hits in Google if you plug in 'counter steering a motorcycle'. Here are some nice pictures explaining the technique: http://www.motorcycletraining.com/wo...eering-pic.jpg Established that yesterday. Motorcycle countersteers, corrects, and steers through the turn... got it... http://xbhp.com/ridesafe/images/coun...ersteering.jpg The process through a curve:: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...cornerbike.gif Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... You're welcome. Becoming more proficient can only make you a safer, better rider. Keep the rubber side down! |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 9:59 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 7:48 AM, Poco Loco wrote: Scotty, I spent a good part of yesterday trying to explain to you what really happens when you turn a motorcycle. You chose not to believe it, came up with ridiculous 'arguments', put up a picture of a dirt bike in a slide, argued against Wikipedia, expert rider videos, and a Motorcycle Safety Instructor. Then you started putting bull**** words in my mouth and comparing me to Harry and Kevin. After trying to keep a level head, I gave up. That's when I said I'd just made up the whole thing. By looking at Google, Wikipedia, videos, etc, you should have realized I was bull****ting when I said I made it all up. But I'm thinking that was the only thing you took seriously. OK, here's the real poop. Steering a motorcycle at more that 'parking lot' speeds is done using a technique called counter steering. The technique is called 'counter steering' because it is 'counter' to the way we learned how to turn a tricycle. On a motorcycle, we push left to go left, and push right to go right, as was explained in numerous videos, Wikipedia, and over a million hits in Google if you plug in 'counter steering a motorcycle'. Here are some nice pictures explaining the technique: http://www.motorcycletraining.com/wo...eering-pic.jpg Established that yesterday. Motorcycle countersteers, corrects, and steers through the turn... got it... http://xbhp.com/ridesafe/images/coun...ersteering.jpg The process through a curve:: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...cornerbike.gif Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I swore I wouldn't get involved in this anymore, but I have to point out something. Scott, that "gif" image showing the proper way to take a turn is deceiving and not really telling the whole story. It shows a section where you counter-steer to enter and begin the turn. Based on the diagram, you might interpret that you *stop* the counter-steer while in the turn. That's what is deceiving about the diagram. The amount of counter-steer is actually maintained throughout the turn because the forces on the bike and rider remain constant throughout. It *has* to, otherwise you won't completely navigate the turn. However .. if the rear wheel breaks free and aligns with the direction the bike is traveling, the previously established counter-steer requirement will be nullified. You may have to re-establish counter-steer again however to complete the rest of the turn. The pictures you keep referencing are worthless. Where you see pressure on the handlebars in one direction, I see it opposite. The amount of counter-steer is so subtle, you really can't clearly see what is going on. So what you are saying is countersteering isn't related to the direction of the front forks in relation to the centerline of the bike, it's related to the force applied to the front forks in relation to the gyroscopic plane created by the tires? Ok, that makes more sense... |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 10:14 AM, BAR wrote:
In article om, says... On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. I rode a motorcycle on the roads for about 5 years. I never thought about how to steer through the corners, it came naturally maybe due to all of the bicycle riding that I had been performing in the preceeding 20 years. You just said it in a nutshell. It becomes intuitive because you learned its how you get around a curve. You don't even realize what you are doing until you really think about it or we get in a discussion like this. The reason it became intuitive is because without counter-steering .. you crashed. However, understanding what counter-steering is all about can get you out of an unexpected dangerous situation, like avoiding a deer or something that fell out of the back of a pickup truck. I remember reading a motorcycle safety article years ago. When riding, the bike will track in the direction you are looking, simply due to unconscious reactions you make to seeing road ahead or objects on or in it. If you see and concentrate on a big pothole coming up in the road, you will naturally tend to head for it initially. That's where understanding effects like counter-steering becomes important. |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are doing it... no other way around it...:) |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 10:15 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:06:51 -0500, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. It's especially important to remember in a decreasing radius turn, when the only way to get through it is to push down harder on the lower bar. Or just panic and hit the ditch, tree, abutment, etc. We just drove our street bikes normally, not looking for that "feel" in every corner so I didn't get surprised by a decreasing radius corner...... Personally, I think it's kinda' irresponsible when bikes get fast and loose on the street, that should be reserved for the track... |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 10:15 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:06:51 -0500, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. It's especially important to remember in a decreasing radius turn, when the only way to get through it is to push down harder on the lower bar. Or just panic and hit the ditch, tree, abutment, etc. He doesn't get it. Never will. |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are doing it... no other way around it...:) The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want* it to turn. :-) I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are skilled in doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried. None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on roads and highways. |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 10:44 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are doing it... no other way around it...:) The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want* it to turn. :-) I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are skilled in doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried. None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on roads and highways. That's a red herring... There are plenty of turns we make just like you. You didn't answer my question though... You are saying countersteering is not related to the angle of the bars in relation to the centerline of the bike, you are saying countersteering is related to the pressure applied against the plane formed by the gyroscopic pressures on the bike? Right? |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 10:53 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:44 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are doing it... no other way around it...:) The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want* it to turn. :-) I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are skilled in doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried. None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on roads and highways. That's a red herring... There are plenty of turns we make just like you. You didn't answer my question though... You are saying countersteering is not related to the angle of the bars in relation to the centerline of the bike, you are saying countersteering is related to the pressure applied against the plane formed by the gyroscopic pressures on the bike? Right? So you are saying in a left corner, with my forks turned left, I am putting more pressure on the left bar... again, not the angle of the bars, but the pressure on the bars... That I could buy.... but my forks will still be turned left in relation to the centerline of the bike... |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 10:53 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:44 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are doing it... no other way around it...:) The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want* it to turn. :-) I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are skilled in doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried. None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on roads and highways. That's a red herring... There are plenty of turns we make just like you. You didn't answer my question though... You are saying countersteering is not related to the angle of the bars in relation to the centerline of the bike, you are saying countersteering is related to the pressure applied against the plane formed by the gyroscopic pressures on the bike? Right? I am saying that a degree of counter-steering pressure is required to keep the front and rear wheels pretty much in line while navigating the turn. Why is that so hard to understand? |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 10:32 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:15 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:06:51 -0500, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. It's especially important to remember in a decreasing radius turn, when the only way to get through it is to push down harder on the lower bar. Or just panic and hit the ditch, tree, abutment, etc. We just drove our street bikes normally, not looking for that "feel" in every corner so I didn't get surprised by a decreasing radius corner...... Personally, I think it's kinda' irresponsible when bikes get fast and loose on the street, that should be reserved for the track... Good. And nice counter-steering! |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 10:53 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:44 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are doing it... no other way around it...:) The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want* it to turn. :-) I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are skilled in doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried. None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on roads and highways. That's a red herring... There are plenty of turns we make just like you. You didn't answer my question though... You are saying countersteering is not related to the angle of the bars in relation to the centerline of the bike, you are saying countersteering is related to the pressure applied against the plane formed by the gyroscopic pressures on the bike? Right? We also use this method to lean the bike for a move called a scrub... A scrub is a maneuver we use to keep the bike low on a jump, the idea being to get back down to the track a few feet earlier and get forward bite before the next guy... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYytyij1wII You countersteer on the way up the face of the jump to lean the bike and dampen the upward forces on the bike... "scrubbing" off the energy of the jump... |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 10:59 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:53 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:44 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are doing it... no other way around it...:) The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want* it to turn. :-) I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are skilled in doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried. None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on roads and highways. That's a red herring... There are plenty of turns we make just like you. You didn't answer my question though... You are saying countersteering is not related to the angle of the bars in relation to the centerline of the bike, you are saying countersteering is related to the pressure applied against the plane formed by the gyroscopic pressures on the bike? Right? I am saying that a degree of counter-steering pressure is required to keep the front and rear wheels pretty much in line while navigating the turn. Why is that so hard to understand? Exactly what I am saying.. why can't you understand? Yes, a degree of pressure on the inside bar, I get it.. Always did, the problem was in what I assumed to be your definition of countersteering, it was ****ing semantics alone, why can't you understand that? |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 10:23 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:14 AM, BAR wrote: In article om, says... On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. I rode a motorcycle on the roads for about 5 years. I never thought about how to steer through the corners, it came naturally maybe due to all of the bicycle riding that I had been performing in the preceeding 20 years. You just said it in a nutshell. It becomes intuitive because you learned its how you get around a curve. You don't even realize what you are doing until you really think about it or we get in a discussion like this. The reason it became intuitive is because without counter-steering .. you crashed. However, understanding what counter-steering is all about can get you out of an unexpected dangerous situation, like avoiding a deer or something that fell out of the back of a pickup truck. I remember reading a motorcycle safety article years ago. When riding, the bike will track in the direction you are looking, simply due to unconscious reactions you make to seeing road ahead or objects on or in it. If you see and concentrate on a big pothole coming up in the road, you will naturally tend to head for it initially. That's where understanding effects like counter-steering becomes important. Do you recall when we came across an alligator in the middle of the road on a curve. I forget how we instinctively dealt with that obstacle. |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 10:15 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:06:51 -0500, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. It's especially important to remember in a decreasing radius turn, when the only way to get through it is to push down harder on the lower bar. Or just panic and hit the ditch, tree, abutment, etc. Or maybe you can just find a nice rut to ride in. |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 11:16 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:23 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: I remember reading a motorcycle safety article years ago. When riding, the bike will track in the direction you are looking, simply due to unconscious reactions you make to seeing road ahead or objects on or in it. If you see and concentrate on a big pothole coming up in the road, you will naturally tend to head for it initially. That's where understanding effects like counter-steering becomes important. When we discuss this with our riders I call it "situational fixation"... the kids just call it "ohhhh shiny" :) Do you recall when we came across an alligator in the middle of the road on a curve. I forget how we instinctively dealt with that obstacle. It just comes naturally for me too like the day I hit that huge chunk of frozen slush... Had to countersteer and back and fourth a few times till the bike settled... But really I didn't do anything, my weight was fixed in a direction so the bike moved under me, I just stayed loose and let the geometry of my front end do the rest:) |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 11:18 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:15 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:06:51 -0500, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. It's especially important to remember in a decreasing radius turn, when the only way to get through it is to push down harder on the lower bar. Or just panic and hit the ditch, tree, abutment, etc. Or maybe you can just find a nice rut to ride in. Go read Waynes post... |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 11:06 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:53 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:44 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are doing it... no other way around it...:) The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want* it to turn. :-) I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are skilled in doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried. None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on roads and highways. That's a red herring... There are plenty of turns we make just like you. You didn't answer my question though... You are saying countersteering is not related to the angle of the bars in relation to the centerline of the bike, you are saying countersteering is related to the pressure applied against the plane formed by the gyroscopic pressures on the bike? Right? We also use this method to lean the bike for a move called a scrub... A scrub is a maneuver we use to keep the bike low on a jump, the idea being to get back down to the track a few feet earlier and get forward bite before the next guy... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYytyij1wII You countersteer on the way up the face of the jump to lean the bike and dampen the upward forces on the bike... "scrubbing" off the energy of the jump... I'm afraid we'll have to take your word on this. |
Windows XP end of support
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:23:41 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:14 AM, BAR wrote: In article om, says... On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. I rode a motorcycle on the roads for about 5 years. I never thought about how to steer through the corners, it came naturally maybe due to all of the bicycle riding that I had been performing in the preceeding 20 years. You just said it in a nutshell. It becomes intuitive because you learned its how you get around a curve. You don't even realize what you are doing until you really think about it or we get in a discussion like this. The reason it became intuitive is because without counter-steering .. you crashed. However, understanding what counter-steering is all about can get you out of an unexpected dangerous situation, like avoiding a deer or something that fell out of the back of a pickup truck. I remember reading a motorcycle safety article years ago. When riding, the bike will track in the direction you are looking, simply due to unconscious reactions you make to seeing road ahead or objects on or in it. If you see and concentrate on a big pothole coming up in the road, you will naturally tend to head for it initially. That's where understanding effects like counter-steering becomes important. Damn, sounds like you were reading a MSF instructor guide. 'Look where you want to go' is one of the major teaching points in the MSF course. When you see someone doing a figure eight, or a u-turn, their head should be turned hard in the direction they want to go. If I'm doing a figure eight in the road, I'll keep my eyes on the 'center' of each circle as I'm going around. Same thing with a u-turn. The eyes are focused on the center of the 'U' as I'm going around. Looking at the ditch you're trying to miss is a good way to get into it. The MSF teaches courses at different levels. You should try the Advanced Rider Course. A great way to spend a day, it's taken on your own bike, and I guarantee you'll learn something! Here's some Massachusetts info. http://nm.msf-usa.org/msf/ridercours...derCourse+Info "Advanced RiderCourse (ARC) [formerly ARC-ST] A one-day course that complements a rider's basic skills and helps with personal risk assessment. It includes a fast-paced classroom segment with several interactive activities to improve perception and hazard awareness. Range exercises enhance both basic skills and crash avoidance skills. Improving braking and cornering finesse is emphasized. The course is beneficial for riders on any type of street motorcycle." |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 11:33 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 11:06 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:53 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:44 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are doing it... no other way around it...:) The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want* it to turn. :-) I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are skilled in doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried. None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on roads and highways. That's a red herring... There are plenty of turns we make just like you. You didn't answer my question though... You are saying countersteering is not related to the angle of the bars in relation to the centerline of the bike, you are saying countersteering is related to the pressure applied against the plane formed by the gyroscopic pressures on the bike? Right? We also use this method to lean the bike for a move called a scrub... A scrub is a maneuver we use to keep the bike low on a jump, the idea being to get back down to the track a few feet earlier and get forward bite before the next guy... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYytyij1wII You countersteer on the way up the face of the jump to lean the bike and dampen the upward forces on the bike... "scrubbing" off the energy of the jump... I'm afraid we'll have to take your word on this. I guess if you can't see it in your head, you just will.. |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 11:31 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 11:18 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:15 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:06:51 -0500, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. It's especially important to remember in a decreasing radius turn, when the only way to get through it is to push down harder on the lower bar. Or just panic and hit the ditch, tree, abutment, etc. Or maybe you can just find a nice rut to ride in. Go read Waynes post... which one? |
Windows XP end of support
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:32:43 -0500, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:15 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:06:51 -0500, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. It's especially important to remember in a decreasing radius turn, when the only way to get through it is to push down harder on the lower bar. Or just panic and hit the ditch, tree, abutment, etc. We just drove our street bikes normally, not looking for that "feel" in every corner so I didn't get surprised by a decreasing radius corner...... Personally, I think it's kinda' irresponsible when bikes get fast and loose on the street, that should be reserved for the track... Stay off the roads in West Virginia! Fast is OK (on many of those roads, fast is 35mph!) You'll definitely get some counter steering practice on the twistys. Try the Highland Turnpike around Fort Edward Johnson. You'll love it! 'Loose', I don't know. Not sure what you mean. |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/14, 11:48 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:32:43 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:15 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:06:51 -0500, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. It's especially important to remember in a decreasing radius turn, when the only way to get through it is to push down harder on the lower bar. Or just panic and hit the ditch, tree, abutment, etc. We just drove our street bikes normally, not looking for that "feel" in every corner so I didn't get surprised by a decreasing radius corner...... Personally, I think it's kinda' irresponsible when bikes get fast and loose on the street, that should be reserved for the track... Stay off the roads in West Virginia! Fast is OK (on many of those roads, fast is 35mph!) You'll definitely get some counter steering practice on the twistys. Try the Highland Turnpike around Fort Edward Johnson. You'll love it! 'Loose', I don't know. Not sure what you mean. Isn't fast and loose the generic name for a series of "C" grade movies involving fast cars, bad actors, drugs, and actresses with huge tits? -- Sarah Palin is watching the Sochi Olympic Games from the front porch of her house. |
Windows XP end of support
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:23:05 -0500, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 9:59 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 7:48 AM, Poco Loco wrote: Scotty, I spent a good part of yesterday trying to explain to you what really happens when you turn a motorcycle. You chose not to believe it, came up with ridiculous 'arguments', put up a picture of a dirt bike in a slide, argued against Wikipedia, expert rider videos, and a Motorcycle Safety Instructor. Then you started putting bull**** words in my mouth and comparing me to Harry and Kevin. After trying to keep a level head, I gave up. That's when I said I'd just made up the whole thing. By looking at Google, Wikipedia, videos, etc, you should have realized I was bull****ting when I said I made it all up. But I'm thinking that was the only thing you took seriously. OK, here's the real poop. Steering a motorcycle at more that 'parking lot' speeds is done using a technique called counter steering. The technique is called 'counter steering' because it is 'counter' to the way we learned how to turn a tricycle. On a motorcycle, we push left to go left, and push right to go right, as was explained in numerous videos, Wikipedia, and over a million hits in Google if you plug in 'counter steering a motorcycle'. Here are some nice pictures explaining the technique: http://www.motorcycletraining.com/wo...eering-pic.jpg Established that yesterday. Motorcycle countersteers, corrects, and steers through the turn... got it... http://xbhp.com/ridesafe/images/coun...ersteering.jpg The process through a curve:: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...cornerbike.gif Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I swore I wouldn't get involved in this anymore, but I have to point out something. Scott, that "gif" image showing the proper way to take a turn is deceiving and not really telling the whole story. It shows a section where you counter-steer to enter and begin the turn. Based on the diagram, you might interpret that you *stop* the counter-steer while in the turn. That's what is deceiving about the diagram. The amount of counter-steer is actually maintained throughout the turn because the forces on the bike and rider remain constant throughout. It *has* to, otherwise you won't completely navigate the turn. However .. if the rear wheel breaks free and aligns with the direction the bike is traveling, the previously established counter-steer requirement will be nullified. You may have to re-establish counter-steer again however to complete the rest of the turn. The pictures you keep referencing are worthless. Where you see pressure on the handlebars in one direction, I see it opposite. The amount of counter-steer is so subtle, you really can't clearly see what is going on. So what you are saying is countersteering isn't related to the direction of the front forks in relation to the centerline of the bike, it's related to the force applied to the front forks in relation to the gyroscopic plane created by the tires? Ok, that makes more sense... You can go back and read what we've said. Or you can google it. Either way you'll learn what counter steering is all about. When you try to say what we're saying, you get confused and/or put words in our mouths. |
Windows XP end of support
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:53:35 -0500, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:44 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are doing it... no other way around it...:) The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want* it to turn. :-) I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are skilled in doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried. None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on roads and highways. That's a red herring... There are plenty of turns we make just like you. You didn't answer my question though... You are saying countersteering is not related to the angle of the bars in relation to the centerline of the bike, you are saying countersteering is related to the pressure applied against the plane formed by the gyroscopic pressures on the bike? Right? You can go back and read what we've said. Or you can google it. Either way you'll learn what counter steering is all about. When you try to say what we're saying, you get confused and/or put words in our mouths. |
Windows XP end of support
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 11:13:43 -0500, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:59 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:53 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:44 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are doing it... no other way around it...:) The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want* it to turn. :-) I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are skilled in doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried. None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on roads and highways. That's a red herring... There are plenty of turns we make just like you. You didn't answer my question though... You are saying countersteering is not related to the angle of the bars in relation to the centerline of the bike, you are saying countersteering is related to the pressure applied against the plane formed by the gyroscopic pressures on the bike? Right? I am saying that a degree of counter-steering pressure is required to keep the front and rear wheels pretty much in line while navigating the turn. Why is that so hard to understand? Exactly what I am saying.. why can't you understand? Yes, a degree of pressure on the inside bar, I get it.. Always did, the problem was in what I assumed to be your definition of countersteering, it was ****ing semantics alone, why can't you understand that? If your whole problem in understanding the technique of counter steering was semantics, why didn't you just read the Wikipedia explanation, or any of the million other hits, or watch the YouTube videos? Like I said earlier, You can go back and read what we've said. Or you can google it. Either way you'll learn what counter steering is all about. When you try to say what we're saying, you get confused and/or put words in our mouths. |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 11:41 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:23:41 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:14 AM, BAR wrote: In article om, says... On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. I rode a motorcycle on the roads for about 5 years. I never thought about how to steer through the corners, it came naturally maybe due to all of the bicycle riding that I had been performing in the preceeding 20 years. You just said it in a nutshell. It becomes intuitive because you learned its how you get around a curve. You don't even realize what you are doing until you really think about it or we get in a discussion like this. The reason it became intuitive is because without counter-steering .. you crashed. However, understanding what counter-steering is all about can get you out of an unexpected dangerous situation, like avoiding a deer or something that fell out of the back of a pickup truck. I remember reading a motorcycle safety article years ago. When riding, the bike will track in the direction you are looking, simply due to unconscious reactions you make to seeing road ahead or objects on or in it. If you see and concentrate on a big pothole coming up in the road, you will naturally tend to head for it initially. That's where understanding effects like counter-steering becomes important. Damn, sounds like you were reading a MSF instructor guide. 'Look where you want to go' is one of the major teaching points in the MSF course. When you see someone doing a figure eight, or a u-turn, their head should be turned hard in the direction they want to go. If I'm doing a figure eight in the road, I'll keep my eyes on the 'center' of each circle as I'm going around. Same thing with a u-turn. The eyes are focused on the center of the 'U' as I'm going around. Looking at the ditch you're trying to miss is a good way to get into it. The MSF teaches courses at different levels. You should try the Advanced Rider Course. A great way to spend a day, it's taken on your own bike, and I guarantee you'll learn something! Here's some Massachusetts info. http://nm.msf-usa.org/msf/ridercours...derCourse+Info "Advanced RiderCourse (ARC) [formerly ARC-ST] A one-day course that complements a rider's basic skills and helps with personal risk assessment. It includes a fast-paced classroom segment with several interactive activities to improve perception and hazard awareness. Range exercises enhance both basic skills and crash avoidance skills. Improving braking and cornering finesse is emphasized. The course is beneficial for riders on any type of street motorcycle." It takes nerves of steel to stand in front of a rapidly advancing rider and say (break right), (break left), or (stop). |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/14, 11:42 AM, KC wrote:
We also use this method to lean the bike for a move called a scrub... A scrub is a maneuver we use to keep the bike low on a jump, the idea being to get back down to the track a few feet earlier and get forward bite before the next guy... Gosh, we used to do just the opposite in high school swim meets. We'd try to get as much "air" as possible moving forward when jumping off the starting platform and then landing with enough force to propel ourselves under water with just kicks until it was time to coordinate strokes and kicks. Turning was more a matter of knowing how to flip. |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 11:42 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 11:33 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 11:06 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:53 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:44 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are doing it... no other way around it...:) The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want* it to turn. :-) I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are skilled in doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried. None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on roads and highways. That's a red herring... There are plenty of turns we make just like you. You didn't answer my question though... You are saying countersteering is not related to the angle of the bars in relation to the centerline of the bike, you are saying countersteering is related to the pressure applied against the plane formed by the gyroscopic pressures on the bike? Right? We also use this method to lean the bike for a move called a scrub... A scrub is a maneuver we use to keep the bike low on a jump, the idea being to get back down to the track a few feet earlier and get forward bite before the next guy... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYytyij1wII You countersteer on the way up the face of the jump to lean the bike and dampen the upward forces on the bike... "scrubbing" off the energy of the jump... I'm afraid we'll have to take your word on this. I guess if you can't see it in your head, you just will.. I see enough things in my head already. I don't need to visualize this. |
Windows XP end of support
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 11:57:18 -0500, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 11:41 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:23:41 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:14 AM, BAR wrote: In article om, says... On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. I rode a motorcycle on the roads for about 5 years. I never thought about how to steer through the corners, it came naturally maybe due to all of the bicycle riding that I had been performing in the preceeding 20 years. You just said it in a nutshell. It becomes intuitive because you learned its how you get around a curve. You don't even realize what you are doing until you really think about it or we get in a discussion like this. The reason it became intuitive is because without counter-steering .. you crashed. However, understanding what counter-steering is all about can get you out of an unexpected dangerous situation, like avoiding a deer or something that fell out of the back of a pickup truck. I remember reading a motorcycle safety article years ago. When riding, the bike will track in the direction you are looking, simply due to unconscious reactions you make to seeing road ahead or objects on or in it. If you see and concentrate on a big pothole coming up in the road, you will naturally tend to head for it initially. That's where understanding effects like counter-steering becomes important. Damn, sounds like you were reading a MSF instructor guide. 'Look where you want to go' is one of the major teaching points in the MSF course. When you see someone doing a figure eight, or a u-turn, their head should be turned hard in the direction they want to go. If I'm doing a figure eight in the road, I'll keep my eyes on the 'center' of each circle as I'm going around. Same thing with a u-turn. The eyes are focused on the center of the 'U' as I'm going around. Looking at the ditch you're trying to miss is a good way to get into it. The MSF teaches courses at different levels. You should try the Advanced Rider Course. A great way to spend a day, it's taken on your own bike, and I guarantee you'll learn something! Here's some Massachusetts info. http://nm.msf-usa.org/msf/ridercours...derCourse+Info "Advanced RiderCourse (ARC) [formerly ARC-ST] A one-day course that complements a rider's basic skills and helps with personal risk assessment. It includes a fast-paced classroom segment with several interactive activities to improve perception and hazard awareness. Range exercises enhance both basic skills and crash avoidance skills. Improving braking and cornering finesse is emphasized. The course is beneficial for riders on any type of street motorcycle." It takes nerves of steel to stand in front of a rapidly advancing rider and say (break right), (break left), or (stop). Been there. I've had to jump out of the way more than once. |
Windows XP end of support
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 11:50:42 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:
On 2/14/14, 11:48 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:32:43 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:15 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:06:51 -0500, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. It's especially important to remember in a decreasing radius turn, when the only way to get through it is to push down harder on the lower bar. Or just panic and hit the ditch, tree, abutment, etc. We just drove our street bikes normally, not looking for that "feel" in every corner so I didn't get surprised by a decreasing radius corner...... Personally, I think it's kinda' irresponsible when bikes get fast and loose on the street, that should be reserved for the track... Stay off the roads in West Virginia! Fast is OK (on many of those roads, fast is 35mph!) You'll definitely get some counter steering practice on the twistys. Try the Highland Turnpike around Fort Edward Johnson. You'll love it! 'Loose', I don't know. Not sure what you mean. Isn't fast and loose the generic name for a series of "C" grade movies involving fast cars, bad actors, drugs, and actresses with huge tits? |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 11:52 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:23:05 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:59 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 7:48 AM, Poco Loco wrote: Scotty, I spent a good part of yesterday trying to explain to you what really happens when you turn a motorcycle. You chose not to believe it, came up with ridiculous 'arguments', put up a picture of a dirt bike in a slide, argued against Wikipedia, expert rider videos, and a Motorcycle Safety Instructor. Then you started putting bull**** words in my mouth and comparing me to Harry and Kevin. After trying to keep a level head, I gave up. That's when I said I'd just made up the whole thing. By looking at Google, Wikipedia, videos, etc, you should have realized I was bull****ting when I said I made it all up. But I'm thinking that was the only thing you took seriously. OK, here's the real poop. Steering a motorcycle at more that 'parking lot' speeds is done using a technique called counter steering. The technique is called 'counter steering' because it is 'counter' to the way we learned how to turn a tricycle. On a motorcycle, we push left to go left, and push right to go right, as was explained in numerous videos, Wikipedia, and over a million hits in Google if you plug in 'counter steering a motorcycle'. Here are some nice pictures explaining the technique: http://www.motorcycletraining.com/wo...eering-pic.jpg Established that yesterday. Motorcycle countersteers, corrects, and steers through the turn... got it... http://xbhp.com/ridesafe/images/coun...ersteering.jpg The process through a curve:: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...cornerbike.gif Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I swore I wouldn't get involved in this anymore, but I have to point out something. Scott, that "gif" image showing the proper way to take a turn is deceiving and not really telling the whole story. It shows a section where you counter-steer to enter and begin the turn. Based on the diagram, you might interpret that you *stop* the counter-steer while in the turn. That's what is deceiving about the diagram. The amount of counter-steer is actually maintained throughout the turn because the forces on the bike and rider remain constant throughout. It *has* to, otherwise you won't completely navigate the turn. However .. if the rear wheel breaks free and aligns with the direction the bike is traveling, the previously established counter-steer requirement will be nullified. You may have to re-establish counter-steer again however to complete the rest of the turn. The pictures you keep referencing are worthless. Where you see pressure on the handlebars in one direction, I see it opposite. The amount of counter-steer is so subtle, you really can't clearly see what is going on. So what you are saying is countersteering isn't related to the direction of the front forks in relation to the centerline of the bike, it's related to the force applied to the front forks in relation to the gyroscopic plane created by the tires? Ok, that makes more sense... You can go back and read what we've said. Or you can google it. Either way you'll learn what counter steering is all about. When you try to say what we're saying, you get confused and/or put words in our mouths. I have come to the conclusion you are book learned on the subject.. that's for sure... |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 11:57 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 11:41 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:23:41 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:14 AM, BAR wrote: In article om, says... On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. I rode a motorcycle on the roads for about 5 years. I never thought about how to steer through the corners, it came naturally maybe due to all of the bicycle riding that I had been performing in the preceeding 20 years. You just said it in a nutshell. It becomes intuitive because you learned its how you get around a curve. You don't even realize what you are doing until you really think about it or we get in a discussion like this. The reason it became intuitive is because without counter-steering .. you crashed. However, understanding what counter-steering is all about can get you out of an unexpected dangerous situation, like avoiding a deer or something that fell out of the back of a pickup truck. I remember reading a motorcycle safety article years ago. When riding, the bike will track in the direction you are looking, simply due to unconscious reactions you make to seeing road ahead or objects on or in it. If you see and concentrate on a big pothole coming up in the road, you will naturally tend to head for it initially. That's where understanding effects like counter-steering becomes important. Damn, sounds like you were reading a MSF instructor guide. 'Look where you want to go' is one of the major teaching points in the MSF course. When you see someone doing a figure eight, or a u-turn, their head should be turned hard in the direction they want to go. If I'm doing a figure eight in the road, I'll keep my eyes on the 'center' of each circle as I'm going around. Same thing with a u-turn. The eyes are focused on the center of the 'U' as I'm going around. Looking at the ditch you're trying to miss is a good way to get into it. The MSF teaches courses at different levels. You should try the Advanced Rider Course. A great way to spend a day, it's taken on your own bike, and I guarantee you'll learn something! Here's some Massachusetts info. http://nm.msf-usa.org/msf/ridercours...derCourse+Info "Advanced RiderCourse (ARC) [formerly ARC-ST] A one-day course that complements a rider's basic skills and helps with personal risk assessment. It includes a fast-paced classroom segment with several interactive activities to improve perception and hazard awareness. Range exercises enhance both basic skills and crash avoidance skills. Improving braking and cornering finesse is emphasized. The course is beneficial for riders on any type of street motorcycle." It takes nerves of steel to stand in front of a rapidly advancing rider and say (break right), (break left), or (stop). Tell me about it.... That is pretty much what we were doing last spring when I screwed up and got hit by the bike, and tossed Jess's knee for the spring season... We were working on switching lines through the whoop section and I missed the signal from the coach at the other end of the run and moved the wrong way... We were rushing to finish a session at the end of the day, it was totally my fault, bad decision to do that drill then... |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/14, 8:30 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 11:16 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:23 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: I remember reading a motorcycle safety article years ago. When riding, the bike will track in the direction you are looking, simply due to unconscious reactions you make to seeing road ahead or objects on or in it. If you see and concentrate on a big pothole coming up in the road, you will naturally tend to head for it initially. That's where understanding effects like counter-steering becomes important. When we discuss this with our riders I call it "situational fixation"... the kids just call it "ohhhh shiny" :) Do you recall when we came across an alligator in the middle of the road on a curve. I forget how we instinctively dealt with that obstacle. It just comes naturally for me too like the day I hit that huge chunk of frozen slush... Had to countersteer and back and fourth a few times till the bike settled... But really I didn't do anything, my weight was fixed in a direction so the bike moved under me, I just stayed loose and let the geometry of my front end do the rest:) Actually you were not countersteering. You were turning in to the slide. If you did it to countersteer and increase the turn, you would have turned more, and you would have swapped ends and crashed most likely! |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 3:08 PM, Bill McKee wrote:
On 2/14/14, 8:30 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 11:16 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:23 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: I remember reading a motorcycle safety article years ago. When riding, the bike will track in the direction you are looking, simply due to unconscious reactions you make to seeing road ahead or objects on or in it. If you see and concentrate on a big pothole coming up in the road, you will naturally tend to head for it initially. That's where understanding effects like counter-steering becomes important. When we discuss this with our riders I call it "situational fixation"... the kids just call it "ohhhh shiny" :) Do you recall when we came across an alligator in the middle of the road on a curve. I forget how we instinctively dealt with that obstacle. It just comes naturally for me too like the day I hit that huge chunk of frozen slush... Had to countersteer and back and fourth a few times till the bike settled... But really I didn't do anything, my weight was fixed in a direction so the bike moved under me, I just stayed loose and let the geometry of my front end do the rest:) Actually you were not countersteering. You were turning in to the slide. If you did it to countersteer and increase the turn, you would have turned more, and you would have swapped ends and crashed most likely! Like I have said before, my communication skills lack I get it. I will be clear.. I "swapped" three times until the bike un-upset itself.... |
Windows XP end of support
KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 3:08 PM, Bill McKee wrote: On 2/14/14, 8:30 AM, KC wrote: On 2/14/2014 11:16 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:23 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: I remember reading a motorcycle safety article years ago. When riding, the bike will track in the direction you are looking, simply due to unconscious reactions you make to seeing road ahead or objects on or in it. If you see and concentrate on a big pothole coming up in the road, you will naturally tend to head for it initially. That's where understanding effects like counter-steering becomes important. When we discuss this with our riders I call it "situational fixation"... the kids just call it "ohhhh shiny" :) Do you recall when we came across an alligator in the middle of the road on a curve. I forget how we instinctively dealt with that obstacle. It just comes naturally for me too like the day I hit that huge chunk of frozen slush... Had to countersteer and back and fourth a few times till the bike settled... But really I didn't do anything, my weight was fixed in a direction so the bike moved under me, I just stayed loose and let the geometry of my front end do the rest:) Actually you were not countersteering. You were turning in to the slide. If you did it to countersteer and increase the turn, you would have turned more, and you would have swapped ends and crashed most likely! Like I have said before, my communication skills lack I get it. I will be clear.. I "swapped" three times until the bike un-upset itself.... Huh? |
Windows XP end of support
On 2/14/2014 11:16 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:23 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/14/2014 10:14 AM, BAR wrote: In article om, says... On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote: Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it... but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks.... I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn. I rode a motorcycle on the roads for about 5 years. I never thought about how to steer through the corners, it came naturally maybe due to all of the bicycle riding that I had been performing in the preceeding 20 years. You just said it in a nutshell. It becomes intuitive because you learned its how you get around a curve. You don't even realize what you are doing until you really think about it or we get in a discussion like this. The reason it became intuitive is because without counter-steering .. you crashed. However, understanding what counter-steering is all about can get you out of an unexpected dangerous situation, like avoiding a deer or something that fell out of the back of a pickup truck. I remember reading a motorcycle safety article years ago. When riding, the bike will track in the direction you are looking, simply due to unconscious reactions you make to seeing road ahead or objects on or in it. If you see and concentrate on a big pothole coming up in the road, you will naturally tend to head for it initially. That's where understanding effects like counter-steering becomes important. Do you recall when we came across an alligator in the middle of the road on a curve. I forget how we instinctively dealt with that obstacle. I think we pulled a wheelie to get the front wheel over him and then when it came back down, locked the front brake and lifted the rear wheel over him. Not too hard on my Softail but it looked kinda funny on your Goldwing. |
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