On 1/25/14, 8:40 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/25/2014 7:22 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:

On 1/25/14, 4:47 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:


I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't
know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked
pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?




For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once
accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a
boat.


I was on a helicopter that "went down" hard in West Virginia. Some sort
of oil or hydraulic failure. No one was injured, and the copter was
hauled away on a flatbed. That was enough helicoptering for me.

I took a few flying lessons when I lived in Michigan. Then a friend and
political colleague who was an experienced pilot died when his plane
crashed. Then my political mentor and friend Walter Reuther died when
the Learjet he was in crashed. Then in DC, a printer who was a friend of
mine died when his plane crashed.

Oh, and when I worked for the NEA, I was on a commercial plane heading
for a landing near Harrisburg, PA. The weather was awful and suddenly
out the window we saw tall smokestacks at wing level right next to us.
The pilot took the plane as near vertical as he could and the flight
attendent, as she tumbled towards the back of the plane, muttered,
"we're going to die."

I dislike flying. I do it when I have to, but I am a lousy
passenger.



I also dislike flying for many reasons. I did a lot during my working
career of course but as soon as it was no longer necessary, I stopped.
The last time I took a commercial flight was nearly 12 years ago.

Like many our age, I witnessed the glory days of aviation as a youngster
and thought being a pilot was about as cool of a job one could ever have.

I wonder how many people realize what the role of a modern commercial
pilot is. He or she is really a "cockpit manager" supervising a
prescribed list of operations that are mostly automatically controlled.
Those with the "seat of the pants" flying skills and experience like
"Sully" Sullenberger who landed on the Hudson River after a bird strike
are becoming the minority.

The main thing that turned me off to commercial flying was some
knowledge I gained of the industry while working. For example, the
engines in jets and prop driven aircraft are routinely rebuilt after so
many hours. It used to be that the engine manufacturer (GE, Pratt &
Whitney, etc.) did the rebuilding and testing. Not so much anymore.
Airlines farm out the rebuilding to third party companies who, although
governed by FAA and manufacturer's specs and requirements, get the
contracts by submitting the lowest bid.

That all said though, I acknowledge that for the number of daily
flights, miles flown and passengers carried, flying has an excellent
safety record. My problem is that I am listening to every sound, clunk
and hydraulic whir when strapped in the seat. :-)





To third party companies in third world countries.

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 04:47:27 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:12:40 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I flew a few times with a guy in Florida who had an R-22 until I found
out he was still a student pilot and had not received his full ticket
yet. Another guy in the community we lived in had the bigger, Robinson
R-44 (four seater). He was ex-military and one hell of a chopper pilot.
I took a couple of lessons with him but really didn't like helicopters.
At the time my fixed wing ticket was still valid and I much preferred
flying a Cessna 172.

===

I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't
know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked
pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?


When I took some instruction in helicopters I was still a fairly new
fixed wing pilot, having received my ticket in 1998. I didn't have a
lot of hours in fixed wing (still don't) and the helicopters were
totally different animals to me. Furthermore, I don't think I was ever
a "natural" pilot if there is such a thing. My flight instructors
always commented that technical types (engineers) like me were often
difficult to teach because we tend to analyze everything too much,
flying "by the book". A helicopter is much more fussy about pilot
inputs and I think requires more of a "natural" feel for the aircraft,
IMO. Plus, I remember the R-22 had very touchy controls, even when
compared to the R-44 which I also flew a few times.

As far as flying to the Bahamas, I wouldn't try it in a R-22 although
maybe some people do. I don't know enough about it. Even in fixed wing
aircraft I rarely flew over water for long because I always wanted the
option of an emergency landing spot somewhere. I know the R-22 doesn't
carry a lot of fuel and I think it's range is about 220 miles or
something like that. It could probably "make it" in good weather but
without much fuel in reserve. Depends on the load it's carrying also.
When I was flying with the guy in Florida the two of us in the R-22 were
technically overloaded but it performed fine.

I think the key words in your question was "Would it be safe ....?"
I never really felt safe with my hands on the bar and feet on the pedals
in a helicopter. :-)

I also took a couple of flight lessons in a different type of helicopter
up here in MA to see if I got more comfortable with it. I didn't. It's
hard for some who learned to fly fixed wing to make the transition to
helicopters.

For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once
accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a boat.

I'm glad I didn't read that before I went to Vietnam!

On Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:40:31 AM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:


The main thing that turned me off to commercial flying was some
knowledge I gained of the industry while working. For example, the
engines in jets and prop driven aircraft are routinely rebuilt after so
many hours. It used to be that the engine manufacturer (GE, Pratt &
Whitney, etc.) did the rebuilding and testing. Not so much anymore.
Airlines farm out the rebuilding to third party companies who, although
governed by FAA and manufacturer's specs and requirements, get the
contracts by submitting the lowest bid.

I got to tour Delta's jet base at Atlanta's Hartsfield airport 20+ years ago. Amazing place. They rebuilt their own airplanes, including the engines.. They had two bunkers where they test ran them after rebuilding. Also had everything else required, even an upholstery shop. Went into a hangar on side of the building where they had seven (!) large jets in various stages of rebuilding in one large room. Oh, and a paint booth, too. Walked through an L-1011 that was stripped of its interior, the wiring and plumbing was amazing.

Don't know if they still do all that stuff themselves. Delta was a first class company back then. Not so sure they are the same now.

On 1/25/2014 8:46 AM, Poco Loco wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 04:47:27 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:12:40 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I flew a few times with a guy in Florida who had an R-22 until I found
out he was still a student pilot and had not received his full ticket
yet. Another guy in the community we lived in had the bigger, Robinson
R-44 (four seater). He was ex-military and one hell of a chopper pilot.
I took a couple of lessons with him but really didn't like helicopters.
At the time my fixed wing ticket was still valid and I much preferred
flying a Cessna 172.

===

I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't
know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked
pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?


When I took some instruction in helicopters I was still a fairly new
fixed wing pilot, having received my ticket in 1998. I didn't have a
lot of hours in fixed wing (still don't) and the helicopters were
totally different animals to me. Furthermore, I don't think I was ever
a "natural" pilot if there is such a thing. My flight instructors
always commented that technical types (engineers) like me were often
difficult to teach because we tend to analyze everything too much,
flying "by the book". A helicopter is much more fussy about pilot
inputs and I think requires more of a "natural" feel for the aircraft,
IMO. Plus, I remember the R-22 had very touchy controls, even when
compared to the R-44 which I also flew a few times.

As far as flying to the Bahamas, I wouldn't try it in a R-22 although
maybe some people do. I don't know enough about it. Even in fixed wing
aircraft I rarely flew over water for long because I always wanted the
option of an emergency landing spot somewhere. I know the R-22 doesn't
carry a lot of fuel and I think it's range is about 220 miles or
something like that. It could probably "make it" in good weather but
without much fuel in reserve. Depends on the load it's carrying also.
When I was flying with the guy in Florida the two of us in the R-22 were
technically overloaded but it performed fine.

I think the key words in your question was "Would it be safe ....?"
I never really felt safe with my hands on the bar and feet on the pedals
in a helicopter. :-)

I also took a couple of flight lessons in a different type of helicopter
up here in MA to see if I got more comfortable with it. I didn't. It's
hard for some who learned to fly fixed wing to make the transition to
helicopters.

For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once
accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a boat.

I'm glad I didn't read that before I went to Vietnam!


In avionics, "attitude" is the aircraft's three dimensional position
relative to the earth or horizon.

Properly trimmed and setup an aircraft like a Cessna 172 is inherently
very safe and easy to fly. It naturally wants to assume a straight and
level flight attitude. It takes pilot influence to put it into an
unusual attitude. For example, by it's design it's difficult to put it
into a spin. To me that's the big difference I found in fixed wing
aircraft that I flew and helicopters. It took some pilot effort and
influence to induce an unusual attitude in a fixed wing Cessna. In a
helicopter it took constant pilot effort and attention just to
*maintain" normal attitude. At least it did for me.

On 1/25/2014 7:22 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
Then my political mentor and friend Walter Reuther died when the Learjet
he was in crashed.

Tell us more about your fascinating career in politics.

On 1/25/2014 8:40 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
That all said though, I acknowledge that for the number of daily
flights, miles flown and passengers carried, flying has an excellent
safety record. My problem is that I am listening to every sound, clunk
and hydraulic whir when strapped in the seat. :-)


Didn't hear any disconcerting sounds in Frank's bird. I was impressed.

On 1/25/2014 9:43 AM, Hank wrote:
On 1/25/2014 8:40 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
That all said though, I acknowledge that for the number of daily
flights, miles flown and passengers carried, flying has an excellent
safety record. My problem is that I am listening to every sound, clunk
and hydraulic whir when strapped in the seat. :-)


Didn't hear any disconcerting sounds in Frank's bird. I was impressed.


That's right. I forgot you flew in it. Problem is, how could you tell?
It's so noisy to begin with and I wouldn't recognize a "disconcerting"
sound if I heard it.

The "other" guy (that I bought the house with the hanger from) had the
R-22. He's the one who took me up two or three times before I found out
he was still a student pilot. His helicopter ended up being grounded by
FAA directive. Some of the R-22s had problems with de-lamination of the
rotors and his was on the list that had not had them replaced. I think
he sold it rather than fix it.

On 1/25/2014 8:40 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/25/2014 7:22 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:

On 1/25/14, 4:47 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:


I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't
know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked
pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?




For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once
accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a
boat.


I was on a helicopter that "went down" hard in West Virginia. Some sort
of oil or hydraulic failure. No one was injured, and the copter was
hauled away on a flatbed. That was enough helicoptering for me.

I took a few flying lessons when I lived in Michigan. Then a friend and
political colleague who was an experienced pilot died when his plane
crashed. Then my political mentor and friend Walter Reuther died when
the Learjet he was in crashed. Then in DC, a printer who was a friend of
mine died when his plane crashed.

Oh, and when I worked for the NEA, I was on a commercial plane heading
for a landing near Harrisburg, PA. The weather was awful and suddenly
out the window we saw tall smokestacks at wing level right next to us.
The pilot took the plane as near vertical as he could and the flight
attendent, as she tumbled towards the back of the plane, muttered,
"we're going to die."

I dislike flying. I do it when I have to, but I am a lousy
passenger.



I also dislike flying for many reasons. I did a lot during my working
career of course but as soon as it was no longer necessary, I stopped.
The last time I took a commercial flight was nearly 12 years ago.

Like many our age, I witnessed the glory days of aviation as a youngster
and thought being a pilot was about as cool of a job one could ever have.

I wonder how many people realize what the role of a modern commercial
pilot is. He or she is really a "cockpit manager" supervising a
prescribed list of operations that are mostly automatically controlled.
Those with the "seat of the pants" flying skills and experience like
"Sully" Sullenberger who landed on the Hudson River after a bird strike
are becoming the minority.

The main thing that turned me off to commercial flying was some
knowledge I gained of the industry while working. For example, the
engines in jets and prop driven aircraft are routinely rebuilt after so
many hours. It used to be that the engine manufacturer (GE, Pratt &
Whitney, etc.) did the rebuilding and testing. Not so much anymore.
Airlines farm out the rebuilding to third party companies who, although
governed by FAA and manufacturer's specs and requirements, get the
contracts by submitting the lowest bid.

That all said though, I acknowledge that for the number of daily
flights, miles flown and passengers carried, flying has an excellent
safety record. My problem is that I am listening to every sound, clunk
and hydraulic whir when strapped in the seat. :-)




Ever fly in a Twin Otter or the whirly bird between Newark and Wall
Street with intermediate assents and desents.

On 1/25/2014 10:34 AM, Hank wrote:
On 1/25/2014 8:40 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/25/2014 7:22 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:

On 1/25/14, 4:47 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:


I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't
know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked
pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?




For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once
accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a
boat.


I was on a helicopter that "went down" hard in West Virginia. Some sort
of oil or hydraulic failure. No one was injured, and the copter was
hauled away on a flatbed. That was enough helicoptering for me.

I took a few flying lessons when I lived in Michigan. Then a friend and
political colleague who was an experienced pilot died when his plane
crashed. Then my political mentor and friend Walter Reuther died when
the Learjet he was in crashed. Then in DC, a printer who was a friend of
mine died when his plane crashed.

Oh, and when I worked for the NEA, I was on a commercial plane heading
for a landing near Harrisburg, PA. The weather was awful and suddenly
out the window we saw tall smokestacks at wing level right next to us.
The pilot took the plane as near vertical as he could and the flight
attendent, as she tumbled towards the back of the plane, muttered,
"we're going to die."

I dislike flying. I do it when I have to, but I am a lousy
passenger.



I also dislike flying for many reasons. I did a lot during my working
career of course but as soon as it was no longer necessary, I stopped.
The last time I took a commercial flight was nearly 12 years ago.

Like many our age, I witnessed the glory days of aviation as a youngster
and thought being a pilot was about as cool of a job one could ever have.

I wonder how many people realize what the role of a modern commercial
pilot is. He or she is really a "cockpit manager" supervising a
prescribed list of operations that are mostly automatically controlled.
Those with the "seat of the pants" flying skills and experience like
"Sully" Sullenberger who landed on the Hudson River after a bird strike
are becoming the minority.

The main thing that turned me off to commercial flying was some
knowledge I gained of the industry while working. For example, the
engines in jets and prop driven aircraft are routinely rebuilt after so
many hours. It used to be that the engine manufacturer (GE, Pratt &
Whitney, etc.) did the rebuilding and testing. Not so much anymore.
Airlines farm out the rebuilding to third party companies who, although
governed by FAA and manufacturer's specs and requirements, get the
contracts by submitting the lowest bid.

That all said though, I acknowledge that for the number of daily
flights, miles flown and passengers carried, flying has an excellent
safety record. My problem is that I am listening to every sound, clunk
and hydraulic whir when strapped in the seat. :-)




Ever fly in a Twin Otter or the whirly bird between Newark and Wall
Street with intermediate assents and desents.


Nope. And never will.

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 09:23:27 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/25/2014 8:46 AM, Poco Loco wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 04:47:27 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:12:40 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I flew a few times with a guy in Florida who had an R-22 until I found
out he was still a student pilot and had not received his full ticket
yet. Another guy in the community we lived in had the bigger, Robinson
R-44 (four seater). He was ex-military and one hell of a chopper pilot.
I took a couple of lessons with him but really didn't like helicopters.
At the time my fixed wing ticket was still valid and I much preferred
flying a Cessna 172.

===

I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't
know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked
pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?


When I took some instruction in helicopters I was still a fairly new
fixed wing pilot, having received my ticket in 1998. I didn't have a
lot of hours in fixed wing (still don't) and the helicopters were
totally different animals to me. Furthermore, I don't think I was ever
a "natural" pilot if there is such a thing. My flight instructors
always commented that technical types (engineers) like me were often
difficult to teach because we tend to analyze everything too much,
flying "by the book". A helicopter is much more fussy about pilot
inputs and I think requires more of a "natural" feel for the aircraft,
IMO. Plus, I remember the R-22 had very touchy controls, even when
compared to the R-44 which I also flew a few times.

As far as flying to the Bahamas, I wouldn't try it in a R-22 although
maybe some people do. I don't know enough about it. Even in fixed wing
aircraft I rarely flew over water for long because I always wanted the
option of an emergency landing spot somewhere. I know the R-22 doesn't
carry a lot of fuel and I think it's range is about 220 miles or
something like that. It could probably "make it" in good weather but
without much fuel in reserve. Depends on the load it's carrying also.
When I was flying with the guy in Florida the two of us in the R-22 were
technically overloaded but it performed fine.

I think the key words in your question was "Would it be safe ....?"
I never really felt safe with my hands on the bar and feet on the pedals
in a helicopter. :-)

I also took a couple of flight lessons in a different type of helicopter
up here in MA to see if I got more comfortable with it. I didn't. It's
hard for some who learned to fly fixed wing to make the transition to
helicopters.

For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once
accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a boat.

I'm glad I didn't read that before I went to Vietnam!


In avionics, "attitude" is the aircraft's three dimensional position
relative to the earth or horizon.

Properly trimmed and setup an aircraft like a Cessna 172 is inherently
very safe and easy to fly. It naturally wants to assume a straight and
level flight attitude. It takes pilot influence to put it into an
unusual attitude. For example, by it's design it's difficult to put it
into a spin. To me that's the big difference I found in fixed wing
aircraft that I flew and helicopters. It took some pilot effort and
influence to induce an unusual attitude in a fixed wing Cessna. In a
helicopter it took constant pilot effort and attention just to
*maintain" normal attitude. At least it did for me.


Hell, there's a big difference in flying model helicopters and model fixed wings. I think the fixed
wings would be much easier. Luckily this little thing I've got seems fairly indestructible. It's
bounced off ceilings, light fixtures, walls, floors, chairs, etc, but still flies.

This is the model I'm considering. Looks quite like the Cessna 172. It also has the 'SAFE'
technology for an amateur like me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLXuKJesAHLN9sevzQ1naPPO4Ly9FdJj6w&v=tH _fds9EJqY&feature=player_detailpage