On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 21:02:02 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:14:05 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

There were many Navy LDOs in the electronics fields mainly because the
enlisted ET schools that they graduated from were so good. For purposes
of the Navy they made better division officers than a university grad
with a electronics related degree who then joined and received a
commission in the Navy.


More malleable, less likely to question authority, know how to spitshine
shoes and march in them.

Again your overpriced education has failed you. They don't have a lot
of that spit shine crap in a Navy electronics school, certainly
nothing like an academy or even a gung ho ROTC unit.

They are giving you knowledge at a much faster tempo that you got in
college and there were consequences for failure.
They don't waste a lot of time with the Gomer Pyle stuff

Harry will never get it, or admit getting it if he does. To acknowledge that there may be some
'good' somewhere in the military would go against his liberal grain.

John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!

On 12/3/13, 9:02 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:14:05 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

There were many Navy LDOs in the electronics fields mainly because the
enlisted ET schools that they graduated from were so good. For purposes
of the Navy they made better division officers than a university grad
with a electronics related degree who then joined and received a
commission in the Navy.


More malleable, less likely to question authority, know how to spitshine
shoes and march in them.

Again your overpriced education has failed you. They don't have a lot
of that spit shine crap in a Navy electronics school, certainly
nothing like an academy or even a gung ho ROTC unit.

They are giving you knowledge at a much faster tempo that you got in
college and there were consequences for failure.
They don't waste a lot of time with the Gomer Pyle stuff


I was using spitshine as a metaphor. You know, one of those concepts you
never got to study in your military training.

I suppose the sort of rote memorization and spitback of instructional
materials is what the military wants and prefers, because independent,
creative thought is not really an attribute it wants in its soldiers,
sailors, et cetera.

Some of the "101" courses I took in college were like that, especially
the math and science classes. Here's the stuff, memorize it, spit it
back, and so forth. I recall one upper level English course that was
like that, "Shakespeare Rapid Reading," in which we had to read and then
write an essay on each of Willie's plays, and all in one semester. It
was an awful course, but a requirement. Fortunately, most of "us'n"
English majors had read the plays long before we got to that course.

Most of the upper level courses I got to take - the "300" and "400"
classes were more contemplative and thought-provoking. I had friends who
were studying to become electrical engineers and architects and
suchlike, and you hardly saw them from one semester to another, the
grind level was so severe for them.

--
Religion: together we can find the cure.

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:52:22 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 12/3/13, 9:02 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:14:05 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

There were many Navy LDOs in the electronics fields mainly because the
enlisted ET schools that they graduated from were so good. For purposes
of the Navy they made better division officers than a university grad
with a electronics related degree who then joined and received a
commission in the Navy.


More malleable, less likely to question authority, know how to spitshine
shoes and march in them.

Again your overpriced education has failed you. They don't have a lot
of that spit shine crap in a Navy electronics school, certainly
nothing like an academy or even a gung ho ROTC unit.

They are giving you knowledge at a much faster tempo that you got in
college and there were consequences for failure.
They don't waste a lot of time with the Gomer Pyle stuff


I was using spitshine as a metaphor. You know, one of those concepts you
never got to study in your military training.

I suppose the sort of rote memorization and spitback of instructional
materials is what the military wants and prefers, because independent,
creative thought is not really an attribute it wants in its soldiers,
sailors, et cetera.

Some of the "101" courses I took in college were like that, especially
the math and science classes. Here's the stuff, memorize it, spit it
back, and so forth. I recall one upper level English course that was
like that, "Shakespeare Rapid Reading," in which we had to read and then
write an essay on each of Willie's plays, and all in one semester. It
was an awful course, but a requirement. Fortunately, most of "us'n"
English majors had read the plays long before we got to that course.

Most of the upper level courses I got to take - the "300" and "400"
classes were more contemplative and thought-provoking. I had friends who
were studying to become electrical engineers and architects and
suchlike, and you hardly saw them from one semester to another, the
grind level was so severe for them.

See Greg...I told you!

John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!

On 12/3/2013 4:14 PM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 12/3/13, 3:59 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 12/3/2013 2:17 PM, Hank© wrote:
On 12/3/2013 1:49 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 12/3/2013 12:45 PM, Hank© wrote:
On 12/3/2013 10:18 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 12/3/2013 10:15 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 12/3/13, 9:32 AM, True North wrote:



You are an amusing old fart, Johnny.
You are the self assigned leader of talking down to others.
I'd bet it was due to your Lt Colonel rank in the army. You still
expect everyone to salute you.
Well, I will.. but only with one finger.



Half the lieutenant colonels in the Army who stayed in got
promoted to
full colonel. Herring stayed in but got passed over for promotion,
probably for insulting one too many "soldier of color."


Doubtful. I don't know about the Army but in the Navy any
demonstration
of overt racism would be cause for immediate dismissal from the
service,
at least in the years I was "in".


You know why Harry is so ignorant of military policy, don't you?



My understanding is that John was an Army equivalent of a "Mustanger"
meaning he was enlisted, continued school, went to OCS and was
commissioned. That could have occurred well into his military
career. I
don't know.

I know that the Navy had several programs whereby an enlisted person
could continue school leading to a commission. Often they became
"Limited Duty Officers" or "LDOs". An LDO was a specialist in a
particular field like electronics or whatever and was not a "Line"
officer meaning they were not eligible for command. Most LDOs in the
Navy never advanced beyond the rank of Lt. Commander.

That sounds about right. My division officer was a mustang Lt. He made
Lt.Cdr. and was immediately transferred. He was well liked and respected
by his peers and the enlisted. Things went south after he left.


There were many Navy LDOs in the electronics fields mainly because the
enlisted ET schools that they graduated from were so good. For purposes
of the Navy they made better division officers than a university grad
with a electronics related degree who then joined and received a
commission in the Navy.


More malleable, less likely to question authority, know how to spitshine
shoes and march in them.


Funny, coming from a union drone.

--
Americans deserve better.

On 12/3/2013 9:28 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 12/3/2013 9:02 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:14:05 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

There were many Navy LDOs in the electronics fields mainly because the
enlisted ET schools that they graduated from were so good. For
purposes
of the Navy they made better division officers than a university grad
with a electronics related degree who then joined and received a
commission in the Navy.


More malleable, less likely to question authority, know how to spitshine
shoes and march in them.

Again your overpriced education has failed you. They don't have a lot
of that spit shine crap in a Navy electronics school, certainly
nothing like an academy or even a gung ho ROTC unit.

They are giving you knowledge at a much faster tempo that you got in
college and there were consequences for failure.
They don't waste a lot of time with the Gomer Pyle stuff



It has been awhile but I attended both branches of the old Navy "ET"
school (both the communications branch and the radar branch). For a
while I was one of a few that were both an "ETN" and an "ETR" at the
same time. I also took many courses at civilian colleges and
universities while in the Navy and after I left military service.

The Navy ET school typically covered a particular subject in two - three
weeks that the university curriculum would cover in a semester. The Navy
school also often covered the material in more depth. It is (or was) a
very intense but efficient method of teaching electronic circuit
design, function and troubleshooting techniques down to the component
level.

Not to brag but the college and university courses I took over the years
that were electronics related were a breeze for me thanks to the Navy
schools. I had more trouble with Accounting II.



But Harry went to college too. That's gotta count for something.

--
Americans deserve better.

On 12/4/2013 7:52 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
Most of the upper level courses I got to take - the "300" and "400"
classes were more contemplative and thought-provoking.

--
Religion: together we can find the cure.

How do you grade crap like that?

--
Americans deserve better.

On 12/4/2013 10:04 AM, John H. wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:52:22 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:



Most of the upper level courses I got to take - the "300" and "400"
classes were more contemplative and thought-provoking. I had friends who
were studying to become electrical engineers and architects and
suchlike, and you hardly saw them from one semester to another, the
grind level was so severe for them.

See Greg...I told you!

John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!


True confessions from the head jerk of rec.boats. Snerk

--
Americans deserve better.

On 12/3/2013 4:31 PM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 13:49:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 12/3/2013 12:45 PM, Hank© wrote:
On 12/3/2013 10:18 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 12/3/2013 10:15 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 12/3/13, 9:32 AM, True North wrote:



You are an amusing old fart, Johnny.
You are the self assigned leader of talking down to others.
I'd bet it was due to your Lt Colonel rank in the army. You still
expect everyone to salute you.
Well, I will.. but only with one finger.



Half the lieutenant colonels in the Army who stayed in got promoted to
full colonel. Herring stayed in but got passed over for promotion,
probably for insulting one too many "soldier of color."


Doubtful. I don't know about the Army but in the Navy any demonstration
of overt racism would be cause for immediate dismissal from the service,
at least in the years I was "in".


You know why Harry is so ignorant of military policy, don't you?



My understanding is that John was an Army equivalent of a "Mustanger"
meaning he was enlisted, continued school, went to OCS and was
commissioned. That could have occurred well into his military career.
I don't know.

I know that the Navy had several programs whereby an enlisted person
could continue school leading to a commission. Often they became
"Limited Duty Officers" or "LDOs". An LDO was a specialist in a
particular field like electronics or whatever and was not a "Line"
officer meaning they were not eligible for command. Most LDOs in the
Navy never advanced beyond the rank of Lt. Commander.

I was drafted with a high school education. Became an artilleryman. After about a year I applied for
and went to OCS - still with a high school education. During the Vietnam era, a college degree
wasn't required for OCS. After Vietnam, the Army sent me to college, with the proviso that my degree
be 'engineer or engineer related' and that I finish the 84 hours I needed within 21 months. And, I
had to find a school which would state that it accepted the hours I had and could complete the
program leading to the degree in the time allotted. (Later, the Army paid for an MS at USC. VA
picked up the tab for 'almost' another MS at GWU.)

The University of Tampa accepted all I had, 30 hours of which was from the College Level Examination
Program (CLEP). The rest was night courses. I graduated.

The Army then wanted me to get a secondary specialty in operations research/systems analysis (ORSA).
This was, partially, to 'utilize' the education provided by the Army. So, I got my first OR/SA job
at the Army Concepts Analysis Agency. After some more schooling, I went to Korea, to the Combined
Forces Command OR/SA Branch, followed by four years at the Army Personnel Center as the Chief,
Programs Management Branch, another OR/SA job.

Remember, I was trained to be a Combat Engineer, and wore the castles. But, there were no slots for
OR/SA guys in Engineer Battalions, no one wanted a Battalion Commander who'd never been a battalion
operations or executive officer, and without a battalion command, one did not make O-6 as an
Engineer. As a major, I missed the engineer battalion positions completely.

It would be like giving a Navy Commander the command of a ship when he had not been near ship since
he was a junior lieutenant. And, obviously, one doesn't make it to Captain in the navy ship arena
without having some command time somewhere.

Once I made LTC, I knew I would never be promoted to full colonel. There was no way for that to
occur. So, I made the best of the situation, did my job, and enjoyed my time. I did not 'sacrifice'
myself for my career.

There, now everyone knows why I didn't make full Colonel. The Army was good to me. I hold no
grudges. A court action found that my last selection board discriminated against a class of us, and
we received a settlement in excess of $64,000.

Please pass this on to Harry. He can gloat about his much better education, etc.

John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!


In comparison to the fluff schools Harry went to you did much better.
Yoy actually learned something valuable whereas Harry learned to
contemplate stuff.

--
Americans deserve better.

On 12/4/2013 10:36 AM, Hank© wrote:
On 12/4/2013 7:52 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
Most of the upper level courses I got to take - the "300" and "400"
classes were more contemplative and thought-provoking.

--
Religion: together we can find the cure.

How do you grade crap like that?


On a curve

--
On 12/3/2013 1:00 PM, Hank© wrote:
Be mindfull of Donnie waving the brown finger. It has the essence of
Harry on it. ;-)

On 12/3/2013 8:02 PM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 12/3/13, 7:52 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 12/3/2013 4:31 PM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 13:49:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 12/3/2013 12:45 PM, Hank© wrote:
On 12/3/2013 10:18 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 12/3/2013 10:15 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 12/3/13, 9:32 AM, True North wrote:



You are an amusing old fart, Johnny.
You are the self assigned leader of talking down to others.
I'd bet it was due to your Lt Colonel rank in the army. You still
expect everyone to salute you.
Well, I will.. but only with one finger.



Half the lieutenant colonels in the Army who stayed in got
promoted to
full colonel. Herring stayed in but got passed over for promotion,
probably for insulting one too many "soldier of color."


Doubtful. I don't know about the Army but in the Navy any
demonstration
of overt racism would be cause for immediate dismissal from the
service,
at least in the years I was "in".


You know why Harry is so ignorant of military policy, don't you?



My understanding is that John was an Army equivalent of a "Mustanger"
meaning he was enlisted, continued school, went to OCS and was
commissioned. That could have occurred well into his military career.
I don't know.

I know that the Navy had several programs whereby an enlisted person
could continue school leading to a commission. Often they became
"Limited Duty Officers" or "LDOs". An LDO was a specialist in a
particular field like electronics or whatever and was not a "Line"
officer meaning they were not eligible for command. Most LDOs in the
Navy never advanced beyond the rank of Lt. Commander.

I was drafted with a high school education. Became an artilleryman.
After about a year I applied for
and went to OCS - still with a high school education. During the
Vietnam era, a college degree
wasn't required for OCS. After Vietnam, the Army sent me to college,
with the proviso that my degree
be 'engineer or engineer related' and that I finish the 84 hours I
needed within 21 months. And, I
had to find a school which would state that it accepted the hours I
had and could complete the
program leading to the degree in the time allotted. (Later, the Army
paid for an MS at USC. VA
picked up the tab for 'almost' another MS at GWU.)

The University of Tampa accepted all I had, 30 hours of which was from
the College Level Examination
Program (CLEP). The rest was night courses. I graduated.

The Army then wanted me to get a secondary specialty in operations
research/systems analysis (ORSA).
This was, partially, to 'utilize' the education provided by the Army.
So, I got my first OR/SA job
at the Army Concepts Analysis Agency. After some more schooling, I
went to Korea, to the Combined
Forces Command OR/SA Branch, followed by four years at the Army
Personnel Center as the Chief,
Programs Management Branch, another OR/SA job.

Remember, I was trained to be a Combat Engineer, and wore the castles.
But, there were no slots for
OR/SA guys in Engineer Battalions, no one wanted a Battalion Commander
who'd never been a battalion
operations or executive officer, and without a battalion command, one
did not make O-6 as an
Engineer. As a major, I missed the engineer battalion positions
completely.

It would be like giving a Navy Commander the command of a ship when he
had not been near ship since
he was a junior lieutenant. And, obviously, one doesn't make it to
Captain in the navy ship arena
without having some command time somewhere.

Once I made LTC, I knew I would never be promoted to full colonel.
There was no way for that to
occur. So, I made the best of the situation, did my job, and enjoyed
my time. I did not 'sacrifice'
myself for my career.

There, now everyone knows why I didn't make full Colonel. The Army was
good to me. I hold no
grudges. A court action found that my last selection board
discriminated against a class of us, and
we received a settlement in excess of $64,000.

Please pass this on to Harry. He can gloat about his much better
education, etc.

John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!




Good going. I share a certain comradeship with those who achieved their
education "the hard way". I know what years of night school and
scrounging around for every credit you can get is like. :-)

I think Harry missed out in some aspects of his education.




Really? I worked all sorts of jobs during the college year. In the
summers before my junior year, I worked as an apprentice welder, a
loader driver, and in a factory.

My junior year, I was hired as a full time reporter for a major
newspaper...I went to school days and worked five nights a week. Other
than wasting time in the military, what do you think I missed.

Social skills for one.

--
Americans deserve better.