On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 10:46:10 -0500, Hank© wrote:

On 12/3/2013 4:31 PM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 13:49:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 12/3/2013 12:45 PM, Hank© wrote:
On 12/3/2013 10:18 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 12/3/2013 10:15 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 12/3/13, 9:32 AM, True North wrote:



You are an amusing old fart, Johnny.
You are the self assigned leader of talking down to others.
I'd bet it was due to your Lt Colonel rank in the army. You still
expect everyone to salute you.
Well, I will.. but only with one finger.



Half the lieutenant colonels in the Army who stayed in got promoted to
full colonel. Herring stayed in but got passed over for promotion,
probably for insulting one too many "soldier of color."


Doubtful. I don't know about the Army but in the Navy any demonstration
of overt racism would be cause for immediate dismissal from the service,
at least in the years I was "in".


You know why Harry is so ignorant of military policy, don't you?



My understanding is that John was an Army equivalent of a "Mustanger"
meaning he was enlisted, continued school, went to OCS and was
commissioned. That could have occurred well into his military career.
I don't know.

I know that the Navy had several programs whereby an enlisted person
could continue school leading to a commission. Often they became
"Limited Duty Officers" or "LDOs". An LDO was a specialist in a
particular field like electronics or whatever and was not a "Line"
officer meaning they were not eligible for command. Most LDOs in the
Navy never advanced beyond the rank of Lt. Commander.

I was drafted with a high school education. Became an artilleryman. After about a year I applied for
and went to OCS - still with a high school education. During the Vietnam era, a college degree
wasn't required for OCS. After Vietnam, the Army sent me to college, with the proviso that my degree
be 'engineer or engineer related' and that I finish the 84 hours I needed within 21 months. And, I
had to find a school which would state that it accepted the hours I had and could complete the
program leading to the degree in the time allotted. (Later, the Army paid for an MS at USC. VA
picked up the tab for 'almost' another MS at GWU.)

The University of Tampa accepted all I had, 30 hours of which was from the College Level Examination
Program (CLEP). The rest was night courses. I graduated.

The Army then wanted me to get a secondary specialty in operations research/systems analysis (ORSA).
This was, partially, to 'utilize' the education provided by the Army. So, I got my first OR/SA job
at the Army Concepts Analysis Agency. After some more schooling, I went to Korea, to the Combined
Forces Command OR/SA Branch, followed by four years at the Army Personnel Center as the Chief,
Programs Management Branch, another OR/SA job.

Remember, I was trained to be a Combat Engineer, and wore the castles. But, there were no slots for
OR/SA guys in Engineer Battalions, no one wanted a Battalion Commander who'd never been a battalion
operations or executive officer, and without a battalion command, one did not make O-6 as an
Engineer. As a major, I missed the engineer battalion positions completely.

It would be like giving a Navy Commander the command of a ship when he had not been near ship since
he was a junior lieutenant. And, obviously, one doesn't make it to Captain in the navy ship arena
without having some command time somewhere.

Once I made LTC, I knew I would never be promoted to full colonel. There was no way for that to
occur. So, I made the best of the situation, did my job, and enjoyed my time. I did not 'sacrifice'
myself for my career.

There, now everyone knows why I didn't make full Colonel. The Army was good to me. I hold no
grudges. A court action found that my last selection board discriminated against a class of us, and
we received a settlement in excess of $64,000.

Please pass this on to Harry. He can gloat about his much better education, etc.

John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!


In comparison to the fluff schools Harry went to you did much better.
Yoy actually learned something valuable whereas Harry learned to
contemplate stuff.

I wonder how much contemplation he did in the 700 and 800 level courses? The guy is just unreal.

John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!

On 12/4/13, 10:46 AM, KC wrote:
On 12/4/2013 10:36 AM, Hank© wrote:
On 12/4/2013 7:52 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
Most of the upper level courses I got to take - the "300" and "400"
classes were more contemplative and thought-provoking.

--
Religion: together we can find the cure.

How do you grade crap like that?


On a curve


Neither you nor your buttbuddy Hankster the Prankster went to college or
grad school, so you should stick to subjects with which you are
familiar. In your case, that would be "how not to hang onto a decent
job," and in Hankie's case, that would be "how to fix obsolete outdrives."

Most of the upper level courses in my majors required the students to
research, cite, and write long (usually) papers that demonstrated depth
of knowledge of the subject matter, the ability to interpret it, and the
ability to write about it. For final exams, the questions and answers
were so long, you could arrange to take the tests in a proctored
classroom where you and other students who wanted to do so could use a
typewriter. I remember one of my classmates filled three blue books with
her handwriting in response to an essay question.

When my wife was working towards here Ph.D, she had two rounds of
written exams that lasted several days each, plus a three day oral exam
before a faculty committee in which she was questioned in depth about
every doctoral level course she took, plus a half day of oral exam
before a doctoral committee in which she had to defend her dissertation.

Oh, and let's not forget: to even get into a grad school, you had to
have really good grades as an undergrad, you had to have high scores on
the Graduate Record Exam (a super SAT/Achievement exam), you had to have
strong written recommendations, et cetera.

Finally, of course, you had to know the difference between the POP and
SMTP protocols.

Now, tell us...how did you get that job stacking crates at the food
warehouse?








--
Religion: together we can find the cure.

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 10:49:30 -0500, Hank© wrote:

On 12/3/2013 8:02 PM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 12/3/13, 7:52 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 12/3/2013 4:31 PM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 13:49:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 12/3/2013 12:45 PM, Hank© wrote:
On 12/3/2013 10:18 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 12/3/2013 10:15 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 12/3/13, 9:32 AM, True North wrote:



You are an amusing old fart, Johnny.
You are the self assigned leader of talking down to others.
I'd bet it was due to your Lt Colonel rank in the army. You still
expect everyone to salute you.
Well, I will.. but only with one finger.



Half the lieutenant colonels in the Army who stayed in got
promoted to
full colonel. Herring stayed in but got passed over for promotion,
probably for insulting one too many "soldier of color."


Doubtful. I don't know about the Army but in the Navy any
demonstration
of overt racism would be cause for immediate dismissal from the
service,
at least in the years I was "in".


You know why Harry is so ignorant of military policy, don't you?



My understanding is that John was an Army equivalent of a "Mustanger"
meaning he was enlisted, continued school, went to OCS and was
commissioned. That could have occurred well into his military career.
I don't know.

I know that the Navy had several programs whereby an enlisted person
could continue school leading to a commission. Often they became
"Limited Duty Officers" or "LDOs". An LDO was a specialist in a
particular field like electronics or whatever and was not a "Line"
officer meaning they were not eligible for command. Most LDOs in the
Navy never advanced beyond the rank of Lt. Commander.

I was drafted with a high school education. Became an artilleryman.
After about a year I applied for
and went to OCS - still with a high school education. During the
Vietnam era, a college degree
wasn't required for OCS. After Vietnam, the Army sent me to college,
with the proviso that my degree
be 'engineer or engineer related' and that I finish the 84 hours I
needed within 21 months. And, I
had to find a school which would state that it accepted the hours I
had and could complete the
program leading to the degree in the time allotted. (Later, the Army
paid for an MS at USC. VA
picked up the tab for 'almost' another MS at GWU.)

The University of Tampa accepted all I had, 30 hours of which was from
the College Level Examination
Program (CLEP). The rest was night courses. I graduated.

The Army then wanted me to get a secondary specialty in operations
research/systems analysis (ORSA).
This was, partially, to 'utilize' the education provided by the Army.
So, I got my first OR/SA job
at the Army Concepts Analysis Agency. After some more schooling, I
went to Korea, to the Combined
Forces Command OR/SA Branch, followed by four years at the Army
Personnel Center as the Chief,
Programs Management Branch, another OR/SA job.

Remember, I was trained to be a Combat Engineer, and wore the castles.
But, there were no slots for
OR/SA guys in Engineer Battalions, no one wanted a Battalion Commander
who'd never been a battalion
operations or executive officer, and without a battalion command, one
did not make O-6 as an
Engineer. As a major, I missed the engineer battalion positions
completely.

It would be like giving a Navy Commander the command of a ship when he
had not been near ship since
he was a junior lieutenant. And, obviously, one doesn't make it to
Captain in the navy ship arena
without having some command time somewhere.

Once I made LTC, I knew I would never be promoted to full colonel.
There was no way for that to
occur. So, I made the best of the situation, did my job, and enjoyed
my time. I did not 'sacrifice'
myself for my career.

There, now everyone knows why I didn't make full Colonel. The Army was
good to me. I hold no
grudges. A court action found that my last selection board
discriminated against a class of us, and
we received a settlement in excess of $64,000.

Please pass this on to Harry. He can gloat about his much better
education, etc.

John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!




Good going. I share a certain comradeship with those who achieved their
education "the hard way". I know what years of night school and
scrounging around for every credit you can get is like. :-)

I think Harry missed out in some aspects of his education.




Really? I worked all sorts of jobs during the college year. In the
summers before my junior year, I worked as an apprentice welder, a
loader driver, and in a factory.

My junior year, I was hired as a full time reporter for a major
newspaper...I went to school days and worked five nights a week. Other
than wasting time in the military, what do you think I missed.

Social skills for one.

Now *that* was funny! I'll bet even the lil' Squirt laughed his ass off over that one!

John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 11:06:56 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 12/4/13, 10:46 AM, KC wrote:
On 12/4/2013 10:36 AM, Hank© wrote:
On 12/4/2013 7:52 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
Most of the upper level courses I got to take - the "300" and "400"
classes were more contemplative and thought-provoking.

--
Religion: together we can find the cure.

How do you grade crap like that?


On a curve


Neither you nor your buttbuddy Hankster the Prankster went to college or
grad school, so you should stick to subjects with which you are
familiar. In your case, that would be "how not to hang onto a decent
job," and in Hankie's case, that would be "how to fix obsolete outdrives."

Most of the upper level courses in my majors required the students to
research, cite, and write long (usually) papers that demonstrated depth
of knowledge of the subject matter, the ability to interpret it, and the
ability to write about it. For final exams, the questions and answers
were so long, you could arrange to take the tests in a proctored
classroom where you and other students who wanted to do so could use a
typewriter. I remember one of my classmates filled three blue books with
her handwriting in response to an essay question.

When my wife was working towards here Ph.D, she had two rounds of
written exams that lasted several days each, plus a three day oral exam
before a faculty committee in which she was questioned in depth about
every doctoral level course she took, plus a half day of oral exam
before a doctoral committee in which she had to defend her dissertation.

Oh, and let's not forget: to even get into a grad school, you had to
have really good grades as an undergrad, you had to have high scores on
the Graduate Record Exam (a super SAT/Achievement exam), you had to have
strong written recommendations, et cetera.


Someone, somewhere....gives a ****.

John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!

On 12/4/2013 11:34 AM, wrote:

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:52:22 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

I suppose the sort of rote memorization and spitback of instructional
materials is what the military wants and prefers, because independent,
creative thought is not really an attribute it wants in its soldiers,
sailors, et cetera.

Again you are just demonstrating your ignorance. If anything the
military training is more practical than what you get in a university
that stuffs your head with things you forget by the next semester and
never use again.

When the ship is sinking or under attack from a guy who wants to kill
you, creativity and the ability to use the information you got in
school is a matter of life or death for everyone on board.

It is not like some art history class you took to fill out your
transcript.



I wonder why being universally taught how to think abstractly or
learning well established "critical thinking" skills in universities is
any different than what military schools offer.

If you haven't attended one, I guess you wouldn't know.

On 12/4/13, 11:48 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 12/4/2013 11:34 AM, wrote:

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:52:22 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

I suppose the sort of rote memorization and spitback of instructional
materials is what the military wants and prefers, because independent,
creative thought is not really an attribute it wants in its soldiers,
sailors, et cetera.

Again you are just demonstrating your ignorance. If anything the
military training is more practical than what you get in a university
that stuffs your head with things you forget by the next semester and
never use again.

When the ship is sinking or under attack from a guy who wants to kill
you, creativity and the ability to use the information you got in
school is a matter of life or death for everyone on board.

It is not like some art history class you took to fill out your
transcript.



I wonder why being universally taught how to think abstractly or
learning well established "critical thinking" skills in universities is
any different than what military schools offer.

If you haven't attended one, I guess you wouldn't know.



I'm just spitting back here what I've observed over the years from such
well-trained thinkers as Herring, Robbins, and your junior high buddy in
Florida.

--
Religion: together we can find the cure.

On 12/4/13, 12:42 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:34:49 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:


I'm just spitting back here what I've observed over the years from such
well-trained thinkers as Herring, Robbins, and your junior high buddy in
Florida.

I seem to be able to keep up with you in the esoteric skills and in
technical skills you don't even get off the starting block..


You're not the junior high school buddy in Florida. My "technical
skills" are where I need them to be. What are the "esoteric skills" to
which you refer?
--
Religion: together we can find the cure.

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:47:14 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 12/4/13, 12:42 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:34:49 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:


I'm just spitting back here what I've observed over the years from such
well-trained thinkers as Herring, Robbins, and your junior high buddy in
Florida.

I seem to be able to keep up with you in the esoteric skills and in
technical skills you don't even get off the starting block..


You're not the junior high school buddy in Florida. My "technical
skills" are where I need them to be. What are the "esoteric skills" to
which you refer?

All those other skills about which you continuously boast, maybe?

John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!

On 12/4/2013 12:34 PM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 12/4/13, 11:48 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 12/4/2013 11:34 AM, wrote:

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:52:22 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

I suppose the sort of rote memorization and spitback of instructional
materials is what the military wants and prefers, because independent,
creative thought is not really an attribute it wants in its soldiers,
sailors, et cetera.

Again you are just demonstrating your ignorance. If anything the
military training is more practical than what you get in a university
that stuffs your head with things you forget by the next semester and
never use again.

When the ship is sinking or under attack from a guy who wants to kill
you, creativity and the ability to use the information you got in
school is a matter of life or death for everyone on board.

It is not like some art history class you took to fill out your
transcript.



I wonder why being universally taught how to think abstractly or
learning well established "critical thinking" skills in universities is
any different than what military schools offer.

If you haven't attended one, I guess you wouldn't know.



I'm just spitting back here what I've observed over the years from such
well-trained thinkers as Herring, Robbins, and your junior high buddy in
Florida.


More fluff from the Clown College of Kansas alumni.
--
Americans deserve better.

On 12/4/2013 12:37 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 11:48:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I wonder why being universally taught how to think abstractly or
learning well established "critical thinking" skills in universities is
any different than what military schools offer.

If you haven't attended one, I guess you wouldn't k

Military schools are taught with a particular practical application in
mind. They want people who can analyse problems and fix them,
sometimes without the proper parts and possibly under a lot of
pressure. That is not a "theory" type skill.

I did see the two philosophies side by side. In the 70s IBM
experimented with hiring EEs because we could not find enough vets to
handle the system 360/370 surge.
It was a disaster. They may have been great in abstract thinking but
we wanted guys who could think about the problem in front of them, not
how we should have designed it,
Of the 4 we had, 2 were simply fired, one moved on to management and
the 4th went off to be a design engineer, where he was actually quite
effective. That is the guy I visited on my Colorado trip. (also the
guy with the Solar house in Manassas)

Some of those guys spend much too much time contemplating and not enough
time doing.

--
Americans deserve better.