On 3/18/13 7:22 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message


There isn't going to be a real economic recovery until there is a
restructuring of our society. Too much of our nation's wealth is in the
hands of the super rich, and the trend in that direction continues. More
then they have since the 19th Century here, workers have become a
disposable commodity, with more of them working without even basic
protections, with a diminishing number of employers providing health
care, with few employers providing defined pensions, et cetera. It's
becoming much more difficult to put away a few dollars when one is
facing a lifetime of really insecure employment, family medical bills,
et cetera. As a society, we're on the downhill part of a roller coaster
ride that sadly leads only to the bottom.

--------------------------------------------------

Why is that so? I don't agree with your "disposable commodity"
mentality, but I do agree that there is a shrinking middle class due to
a corresponding shrinking job market. Even Al Gore warned of this way
back when. So did Ross Perot.

There has always been "super rich". Why is the "super rich" suddenly
and primarily responsible for the job losses and resultant middle class
unemployment?

The primary reason is global competition for traditional manufacturing
jobs in industry. As Wayne pointed out, there will always be jobs that
can't be outsourced, but everyone can't be a plumber, electrician or
HVAC technician. For a while, everyone and his brother was becoming an
"IT" serviceperson or was setting up website creation and maintenance
services. But with canned software, anyone with half a brain can create
and maintain their own website.

Go to an ER or hospital lately? A good number of the doctors are
transplants from other countries. Cars run for 100,000 miles or more
with only cursory maintenance. Used to require a tune-up every 20,000
miles. Electronic devices like computers and TV's have become
disposable and cheap. No need to repair them and when they can be
repaired, you can usually do it yourself. Magazines and newspapers are
on the decline. Everything worth reading can be found on the
Internet. No need for mechanics maintaining printing presses or truck
drivers delivering bales of newspapers anymore.

If you stop to think about all the technological advances made in the
past 15 years or so and also consider the global competition for the
manufacturing jobs, I think it becomes clear what has happened to
middle class jobs.



There used to be a social compact in this country, a compact that
produced a thriving middle class with significant opportunity for upward
mobility.

The primary reason middle class jobs have disappeared is...greed. The
so-called "investor class" is making money hand over fist and is taking
a growing percentage of national wealth and not investing it here. At
some point, that trend will stop and reverse or you will see more
Russian-like revolutions. The world cannot just exist for the rich.

What you are predicting is an ever growing class of really marginally
employed people in this country. If that continues, there really is no
reason for this country to exist.

"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...

On 3/18/13 7:22 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message


There isn't going to be a real economic recovery until there is a
restructuring of our society. Too much of our nation's wealth is in
the
hands of the super rich, and the trend in that direction continues.
More
then they have since the 19th Century here, workers have become a
disposable commodity, with more of them working without even basic
protections, with a diminishing number of employers providing health
care, with few employers providing defined pensions, et cetera. It's
becoming much more difficult to put away a few dollars when one is
facing a lifetime of really insecure employment, family medical
bills,
et cetera. As a society, we're on the downhill part of a roller
coaster
ride that sadly leads only to the bottom.

--------------------------------------------------

Why is that so? I don't agree with your "disposable commodity"
mentality, but I do agree that there is a shrinking middle class due
to
a corresponding shrinking job market. Even Al Gore warned of this
way
back when. So did Ross Perot.

There has always been "super rich". Why is the "super rich"
suddenly
and primarily responsible for the job losses and resultant middle
class
unemployment?

The primary reason is global competition for traditional
manufacturing
jobs in industry. As Wayne pointed out, there will always be jobs
that
can't be outsourced, but everyone can't be a plumber, electrician
or
HVAC technician. For a while, everyone and his brother was becoming
an
"IT" serviceperson or was setting up website creation and
maintenance
services. But with canned software, anyone with half a brain can
create
and maintain their own website.

Go to an ER or hospital lately? A good number of the doctors are
transplants from other countries. Cars run for 100,000 miles or
more
with only cursory maintenance. Used to require a tune-up every
20,000
miles. Electronic devices like computers and TV's have become
disposable and cheap. No need to repair them and when they can be
repaired, you can usually do it yourself. Magazines and newspapers
are
on the decline. Everything worth reading can be found on the
Internet. No need for mechanics maintaining printing presses or
truck
drivers delivering bales of newspapers anymore.

If you stop to think about all the technological advances made in
the
past 15 years or so and also consider the global competition for the
manufacturing jobs, I think it becomes clear what has happened to
middle class jobs.



There used to be a social compact in this country, a compact that
produced a thriving middle class with significant opportunity for
upward
mobility.

The primary reason middle class jobs have disappeared is...greed. The
so-called "investor class" is making money hand over fist and is
taking
a growing percentage of national wealth and not investing it here. At
some point, that trend will stop and reverse or you will see more
Russian-like revolutions. The world cannot just exist for the rich.

What you are predicting is an ever growing class of really marginally
employed people in this country. If that continues, there really is no
reason for this country to exist.

----------------------------------------------------------

You keep giving these altruistic reasons like "social compacts" and
the like. The social compacts were a result of mutual loyalties
between employer and employees. They've been on the decline since
the early 70's and the fault lies with both. They also occurred
during a period where competition was mostly among domestic companies.
That all ended with the emergence of the so called "global economy"
whereby qualified competition exists in countries where pay scales and
benefit packages don't come close to the costs of those traditionally
paid here.

Somehow you seem to think that a domestic company can successfully
compete paying twice or triple the cost in pay and benefits with other
companies that utilized cheap offshore labor. The reality is that
the company wouldn't be in business much longer.

It's nice to talk about social compacts and such but a business must
survive first if it is to benefit the employees. I haven't heard a
peep from you or other liberals about how a business is supposed to
accomplish this.

I think the only way it can ever be solved is a radical change in
expectations of pay and benefit packages in this country. Sounds
harsh and unfair, but it's the facts Jack. Jobs that paid $60-$80
per hour in terms of burdened cost are going to pay half that and
people are going to have to accept it as reality. In time, the
overall cost of living will decrease to adjust to lower overall wages.
Housing prices will drop. Cars and transportation costs will drop.
We will probably go through a period of deflation.

I think it is already starting, BTW. The unemployment rate is so
high for people entering the workforce that those who *do* find a job
are forced to accept starting wages that are much lower than what was
paid 5, 10 or 15 years ago. Why do you think people are living on
extended unemployment benefits while they search and wait for a job
that pays any where close to what they used to make?

Wages and benefit packages traditionally paid within the USA became a
bubble that has burst, just like so many other bubbles we've
witnessed.
Competition is the reason.

On 3/18/13 8:47 AM, Eisboch wrote:

Jobs that paid $60-$80 per hour
in terms of burdened cost are going to pay half that and people are
going to have to accept it as reality.


Except, of course, for "executive pay," which reached multiples of
average worker pay never imagined, and except for the investment
bankers, brokers, bankers, LBO sharks and others, who are robbing the
economy blind.

"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...

On 3/18/13 8:47 AM, Eisboch wrote:

Jobs that paid $60-$80 per hour
in terms of burdened cost are going to pay half that and people are
going to have to accept it as reality.


Except, of course, for "executive pay," which reached multiples of
average worker pay never imagined, and except for the investment
bankers, brokers, bankers, LBO sharks and others, who are robbing the
economy blind.

------------------------------------

You have a one track mind. But, I agree that *all* compensation will
have to be adjusted in order to compete successfully.

As for the Wall Street types ... the hedge fund managers, the big
bankers and brokers .... they can all go rot in hell.

On 3/18/13 9:36 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...

On 3/18/13 8:47 AM, Eisboch wrote:

Jobs that paid $60-$80 per hour
in terms of burdened cost are going to pay half that and people are
going to have to accept it as reality.


Except, of course, for "executive pay," which reached multiples of
average worker pay never imagined, and except for the investment
bankers, brokers, bankers, LBO sharks and others, who are robbing the
economy blind.

------------------------------------

You have a one track mind. But, I agree that *all* compensation will
have to be adjusted in order to compete successfully.

As for the Wall Street types ... the hedge fund managers, the big
bankers and brokers .... they can all go rot in hell.



Rotting in hell is not sufficient for those guys. And yes, I would like
to see some level of fairness restored to the compensation of workers in
comparison to the "bosses."

On 3/17/2013 11:19 PM, Wayne B wrote:
On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:15:08 -0500, amdx
wrote:

On 3/14/2013 9:52 PM, Urin Asshole wrote:
On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 20:35:51 -0400, Wayne B
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:09:12 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

Those "lifetime earnings" stats don't account for kids who paid up for
college but didn't succeed. They end up dropping out before they
finish, or finish and end up working at Starbucks.

====

Not everyone who drops out of college ends up in a dead end job.
Take a look at Bill Gates and Steve Jobs for two notable examples.
There are lots more.

That's true, but those who don't go are much more likely to earn many
thousands less over their lifetime. More true now than ever. Even four
years is just the minimum now.

Unless you start a business.
Mikek

====

Or work your way up the organization from an entry level job, i.e.,
the old fashioned way. The demand for certain technical skills is so
high that any experience at all can get your foot in the door. Once
hired, job performance counts a lot more than education. I've
encountered a surprising number of well educated individuals who just
could not apply their knowledge effectively in a work environment.
Being able to apply what you know, recognizing opportunities and
acting on them in a timely manner is what gets people ahead. There
are also a lot of opportunities in some of the difficult, dirty, blue
collar areas like refrigeration, air conditioning, plumbing, diesel
mechanics, commercial electricians, etc. Those jobs are physically
demanding and require a fair amount of skill but they pay very well
and can lead to having your own business.


Speaking of diesel mechanics: Recently I had a problem with one of my
engines. The mechanic plugged in his laptop and proceeded to run a
battery of tests. He then told me what he suspected was wrong, but
protocol required that he email snapshots of the test results to the
manufacturer who then consulted with the mechanic and told him they were
sending two parts for him to replace. The 2nd phase of the repair
required him to get his hands dirty replacing parts.
The skills needed to do certain jobs have certainly evolved over the years.

On 3/18/2013 6:41 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 3/18/13 3:20 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"Urin Asshole" wrote in message
...

On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 00:53:16 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 23:19:08 -0400, Wayne B
wrote:


Or work your way up the organization from an entry level job, i.e.,
the old fashioned way. The demand for certain technical skills is so
high that any experience at all can get your foot in the door. Once
hired, job performance counts a lot more than education. I've
encountered a surprising number of well educated individuals who just
could not apply their knowledge effectively in a work environment.
Being able to apply what you know, recognizing opportunities and
acting on them in a timely manner is what gets people ahead. There
are also a lot of opportunities in some of the difficult, dirty, blue
collar areas like refrigeration, air conditioning, plumbing, diesel
mechanics, commercial electricians, etc. Those jobs are physically
demanding and require a fair amount of skill but they pay very well
and can lead to having your own business.

I have heard the gloom and doom for anyone who didn't go to college
and every year brings new opportunities for people who do not really
need a degree. Now that we have US companies adopting the German
model of training workers for their particular field, that may be
another path for kids who don't want to start their career with a huge
debt.

Bull****. Just about every study available shows that a college edu
makes a huge salary difference. Maybe you were able to do fine without
one, but that's not the norm any more. You think factory workers are
the future? Jesus H. Christ that's a narrow view.

-------------------------------------------------------

Degrees and graduate degrees are fine and wonderful but if there are no
jobs to be had (or just a few in very limited fields), not only is the
degree non-productive there is also an almost lifetime level of debt for
many. I have been shocked to learn of how many recent college grads
are unemployed because they cannot find a job and of the number of older
people with degrees and years of experience who are collecting extended
unemployment checks. An economic recovery, if it ever really happens,
isn't going to bring those jobs back.

Check out these statistics:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/moneybuilder/2013/02/01/alarming-number-of-student-loans-are-delinquent/



Things have changed and Wayne is correct, IMO.



There isn't going to be a real economic recovery until there is a
restructuring of our society. Too much of our nation's wealth is in the
hands of the super rich, and the trend in that direction continues. More
then they have since the 19th Century here, workers have become a
disposable commodity, with more of them working without even basic
protections, with a diminishing number of employers providing health
care, with few employers providing defined pensions, et cetera. It's
becoming much more difficult to put away a few dollars when one is
facing a lifetime of really insecure employment, family medical bills,
et cetera. As a society, we're on the downhill part of a roller coaster
ride that sadly leads only to the bottom.


Thank god we have our great protector in the White House, eh?

On 3/18/2013 7:46 AM, BAR wrote:
In article ,
says...

"Urin Asshole" wrote in message
...

On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 00:53:16 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 23:19:08 -0400, Wayne B
wrote:


Or work your way up the organization from an entry level job, i.e.,
the old fashioned way. The demand for certain technical skills is
so
high that any experience at all can get your foot in the door.
Once
hired, job performance counts a lot more than education. I've
encountered a surprising number of well educated individuals who
just
could not apply their knowledge effectively in a work environment.
Being able to apply what you know, recognizing opportunities and
acting on them in a timely manner is what gets people ahead. There
are also a lot of opportunities in some of the difficult, dirty,
blue
collar areas like refrigeration, air conditioning, plumbing, diesel
mechanics, commercial electricians, etc. Those jobs are physically
demanding and require a fair amount of skill but they pay very well
and can lead to having your own business.

I have heard the gloom and doom for anyone who didn't go to college
and every year brings new opportunities for people who do not really
need a degree. Now that we have US companies adopting the German
model of training workers for their particular field, that may be
another path for kids who don't want to start their career with a
huge
debt.

Bull****. Just about every study available shows that a college edu
makes a huge salary difference. Maybe you were able to do fine without
one, but that's not the norm any more. You think factory workers are
the future? Jesus H. Christ that's a narrow view.

-------------------------------------------------------

Degrees and graduate degrees are fine and wonderful but if there are
no jobs to be had (or just a few in very limited fields), not only is
the degree non-productive there is also an almost lifetime level of
debt for many. I have been shocked to learn of how many recent
college grads are unemployed because they cannot find a job and of the
number of older people with degrees and years of experience who are
collecting extended unemployment checks. An economic recovery, if it
ever really happens, isn't going to bring those jobs back.

Check out these statistics:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/moneybuilder/2013/02/01/alarming-number-of-student-loans-are-delinquent/

Things have changed and Wayne is correct, IMO.

My wife is an out of work Analytical Chemist with two BS degrees in the
sciences and 25 years in analytical chemistry. She has been looking for
a job going on 10 months now. She is competing against people with PhD's
and MS's and other BS's. Some sites tell you how many people have
applied for the job you just applied to and often times it lists
anywhere from 150 to 300 people applying for that one position. Having a
college degree is no help when they jobs are not available.


Ahhh. That's when O'Bama steps in with his smoke and mirrors and
"creates jobs" How sustainable is that going to be? Throw the bum out.

On 3/18/2013 9:27 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 3/18/13 8:47 AM, Eisboch wrote:

Jobs that paid $60-$80 per hour
in terms of burdened cost are going to pay half that and people are
going to have to accept it as reality.


Except, of course, for "executive pay," which reached multiples of
average worker pay never imagined, and except for the investment
bankers, brokers, bankers, LBO sharks and others, who are robbing the
economy blind.

Don't worry about executive pay. People way above your pay grade deal
with that. Don't bull**** us. You are just jealous that you didn't get
on the real gravy train. What you stole was small potatoes. You snooze
you lose. Sorry.

On 3/18/2013 9:49 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:

"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...

Rotting in hell is not sufficient for those guys. And yes, I would like
to see some level of fairness restored to the compensation of workers in
comparison to the "bosses."

How much is fair?
Is it OK to be fair to non union as well as union workers?
Is it fair to lock out non union workers from union operated job sites?

Union greed is just as responsible for killing jobs in America, as the
people that put THEIR MONEY on the line to create jobs.

The greedy unions did force the greedy capitalists to move their money
and jobs offshore. It's just the way it is.