Just want to say that I've been enjoying this group for a while now, and
even though I'm land locked in the arid southwest, I can not resist the call
to sail. My friend got me started a couple of years ago (I'm 32) on his
small Dart catamaran (He just upgraded to a 28' Great Barrier Express, which
I've been helping to restore), and for one week each summer the last couple
of years I've been sailing with another friend in the San Juan's on his 34'
Sun Yacht. I find that it is pretty much all I can think about now. My
friend has apologized to me for getting me started in an expensive hobby in
an impractical location.

That said I'm still hell bent on learning to sail, so here is my basic plan:
I want to save up and take an ASA certification class each year in the early
spring (vacation with a purpose), starting with 101, and in the mean time I
would like a small boat to practice with. I figure I'll keep the small boat
to play and practice on, then once I'm done with taking ASA classes in a few
years I'll start chartering boats for a yearly excursion. Then someday
when/if I finally move to someplace where I can have/live on a boat, I'll be
ready, and more informed on what to get. Not to mention that this way is
slow and inexpensive enough that I can be sure I'm really into sailing
before spending large dollar amounts, not to mention I don't yet have large
dollar amounts.

Seems like a reasonable plan, I'm open to criticism of course, but I was
hoping to find out more about the small boat which I would like to purchase
next spring. I believe in doing my homework, besides it helps with my
sailing fix during the "dry season".

I've already considering going the multi-hull route with a Windrider,
perhaps a rave? But I'm starting to be convinced that to really learn
sailing I should have a small monohull, perhaps something like a laser? This
is where I'm most confused, and would like to hear a few more opinions. I
want to learn, but I would like to have fun too!

--
John L.

I would definitively start with a monohull dinghy.

I regularly sail both Lasers and Albacores (small sloop rigged, center
board, 2 sail dinghy).

The Laser is a great and very fun boat to sail. It is also a somewhat
simplified boat, meaning that you only have a main sail and limited
controls. While I do love to sail the laser, and it is a great and
unforgving master, for somebody planning to move to something bigger I
would recomend another boat.

The Albacore, the other dinghy I sail, its actually the boat that is
used by many sail clubs in Lake Ontario as a teaching boat. You can
check my old club website for photos and training material.
www.sailtoronto.com. The Albacore is a great beginers boat. You have
two sails, so you learn about main and jib, plus you also have most
other sail controls. Another advantage is that there seems to be an
active racing fleet in most large north american cities.

The drawback is that it does not have a spinaker, which you may want
to lear to use once you reach an intermediate level. For spinaker
dinghys, I like the 505, which also has a trapeze...but that is more
for the trill seekers....

Ah, a last warning, I heard of many sailors who had a plan like yours,
and learn to sail dinghys..just to discover that they loved the small
boats and preferred them to cruisers...the way somebody once described
was..."the difference between driving a convertible and a winnebago."
Mind you, the winnebago goes on longer trips to nicer places
though....



On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:10:05 -0700, "jl" wrote:

Just want to say that I've been enjoying this group for a while now, and
even though I'm land locked in the arid southwest, I can not resist the call
to sail. My friend got me started a couple of years ago (I'm 32) on his
small Dart catamaran (He just upgraded to a 28' Great Barrier Express, which
I've been helping to restore), and for one week each summer the last couple
of years I've been sailing with another friend in the San Juan's on his 34'
Sun Yacht. I find that it is pretty much all I can think about now. My
friend has apologized to me for getting me started in an expensive hobby in
an impractical location.

That said I'm still hell bent on learning to sail, so here is my basic plan:
I want to save up and take an ASA certification class each year in the early
spring (vacation with a purpose), starting with 101, and in the mean time I
would like a small boat to practice with. I figure I'll keep the small boat
to play and practice on, then once I'm done with taking ASA classes in a few
years I'll start chartering boats for a yearly excursion. Then someday
when/if I finally move to someplace where I can have/live on a boat, I'll be
ready, and more informed on what to get. Not to mention that this way is
slow and inexpensive enough that I can be sure I'm really into sailing
before spending large dollar amounts, not to mention I don't yet have large
dollar amounts.

Seems like a reasonable plan, I'm open to criticism of course, but I was
hoping to find out more about the small boat which I would like to purchase
next spring. I believe in doing my homework, besides it helps with my
sailing fix during the "dry season".

I've already considering going the multi-hull route with a Windrider,
perhaps a rave? But I'm starting to be convinced that to really learn
sailing I should have a small monohull, perhaps something like a laser? This
is where I'm most confused, and would like to hear a few more opinions. I
want to learn, but I would like to have fun too!

I've been leaning more and more toward a monohull dinghy. I've looked a
little at the 505, and like the idea of having a boat I can progress with up
to spinnaker sailing. How is the 505 for singlehanding? I also understand
the dilemma which you mention, I drive a Miata, which has made driving fun
again, and my truck doesn't even get started anymore, despite it's greater
utility. Although the addition of a small boat will motivate me to drive it
again. ;-)

Does anyone have an opinion about the Fusion 15? I was just reading about it
in Sailing World. Sounds like it could be a good first rig as well

wrote:
| I would definitively start with a monohull dinghy.
|
| I regularly sail both Lasers and Albacores (small sloop rigged, center
| board, 2 sail dinghy).
|
| The Laser is a great and very fun boat to sail. It is also a somewhat
| simplified boat, meaning that you only have a main sail and limited
| controls. While I do love to sail the laser, and it is a great and
| unforgving master, for somebody planning to move to something bigger I
| would recomend another boat.
|
| The Albacore, the other dinghy I sail, its actually the boat that is
| used by many sail clubs in Lake Ontario as a teaching boat. You can
| check my old club website for photos and training material.
| www.sailtoronto.com. The Albacore is a great beginers boat. You have
| two sails, so you learn about main and jib, plus you also have most
| other sail controls. Another advantage is that there seems to be an
| active racing fleet in most large north american cities.
|
| The drawback is that it does not have a spinaker, which you may want
| to lear to use once you reach an intermediate level. For spinaker
| dinghys, I like the 505, which also has a trapeze...but that is more
| for the trill seekers....
|
| Ah, a last warning, I heard of many sailors who had a plan like yours,
| and learn to sail dinghys..just to discover that they loved the small
| boats and preferred them to cruisers...the way somebody once described
| was..."the difference between driving a convertible and a winnebago."
| Mind you, the winnebago goes on longer trips to nicer places
| though....

"jl" wrote...
I've been leaning more and more toward a monohull dinghy. I've looked a
little at the 505, and like the idea of having a boat I can progress with up
to spinnaker sailing. How is the 505 for singlehanding?

The 505 is generally too hot for singlehanding. The 420 (same concept, smaller
boat) can be singlehanded, especially if you have one that has 2 mast steps --
one for rigging as a sloop and one as a cat (without jib). The cat rig is often
used for kids' sailing instruction and for frostbiting.
------------------
John Weiss
Seattle, WA
Remove NOSPAM from reply address

At the top of a Google search result for "420 sail" was
http://www.teamvanguard.com/boats/m/.../c420_home.asp. Apparently Vanguard
is still making them (they were a popular mfgr when I was sailing them in the
70s). Also check with the Club 420 Association at http://www.club420.org/ and
the International 420 Class at http://www.420sailing.org/content.htm.

Frostbiting is winter sailing in the northern US and southern Canada.
------------------
John Weiss
Seattle, WA
Remove NOSPAM from reply address

"jl" wrote...

Thanks for the input, I had a hard time finding out about the 420, which
seems more popular overseas? Do you know where the manufacturers are in the
US, if any? Just so I can look & get a rough price estimate. BTW what does
frostbiting mean?

I've been leaning more and more toward a monohull dinghy. I've looked a
little at the 505, and like the idea of having a boat I can progress with up
to spinnaker sailing. How is the 505 for singlehanding? I also understand
the dilemma which you mention, I drive a Miata, which has made driving fun
again, and my truck doesn't even get started anymore, despite it's greater
utility. Although the addition of a small boat will motivate me to drive it
again. ;-)

Does anyone have an opinion about the Fusion 15? I was just reading about it
in Sailing World. Sounds like it could be a good first rig as well

I have been sailing and racing 505s since 1977. By far the best boat I have
ever sailed in 32 years of sailing and racing. I do single hand from time to
time.

There is a short article -- taken from e-mail discussions -- about single
handing the 505, on the International 505 web site.

International 505 web site: http://www.int505.org
single handing article: http://www.int505.org/singleh1.htm

For a high performance dinghy, the 505 is relatively easy to sail. However
though there are people who learned to sail on a 505, it is more powerful and
faster than most dinghies and has more complex control systems, and is not
something normally considered as a learn-to-sail dinghy. I have single handed
the 505 from the trapeze, with main jib and spinnaker in up to about 13 or 14
knots. What a BLAST!!!! But it is pretty much a one-armed-paper-hanger
routine, particularly tacking, gybing, hoisting and dousing the spinnaker. I
would not suggest a newcomer to dinghy sailing try that until they had some
dinghy experience.

The Laser is a very simple one-sail boat with a pretty good power to weight
ratio, it is simple, easy to find one used, and a good starting point. Optimum
weight (serious racing) for a Laser is about 175-185 pounds, though it can be
sailed and raced quite a bit lighter than that, especially if you sail in a
light wind area. The Laser radial rig is better suited for lighter people
(same hull and foils, different lower mast and sail).

I also learned to sail on an Albacore. It is larger than the Laser, heavier,
and intended for two people, like the 505. Though rigging can be quite complex
on top racing Albacores, most Albacores have very simple rigging (not as simple
as the Laser though). It could also be single handed in lighter conditions,
though I think I'd be better of single handing a 505 from the trapeze, than
trying to hike an Albacore down by myself in 14 knots.

I have never heard of the Fusion 15. Sailing World and other sailing magazines
are full of articles about new designs that advertisers like to see in the
magazines. The majority of new designs disappear quickly, while strong long
existing classes by and large continue to have large turnouts for racing. The
strong classes remain strong, and most new classes never make it. The Laser,
introduced about 1970, is almost an exception in this regard. It has become a
very strong class. If you do not care about racing and a class association and
just want to learn to sail, then some of the newer designs may work just fine.

The analogy of a cruising boat being like a Winnebago while a racing dinghy is
a sports car is valid in my opinion. A good dinghy is much more sensitive and
has a much stronger feedback loop than a keelboat. If you are sensitive to the
load on the mainsheet, the load on the tiller, and can develop a feel for
speed, you will learn faster and better sailing a dinghy than you will in a
keelboat. Sailing lessons frequently put adults in keelboats, but kids who
don't mind getting wet are usually taught in small dinghys. The skills you
learn in a dinghy are useful even in keelboats, while if you learn in
keelboats, you are going to be missing some of the dinghy skills. A good high
performance dinghy racer can figure out a racing keelboat, while a racing
keelboat sailor is probably going to be swimming a lot, if they try and race a
high performance dinghy in any breeze.

To continue the analogy, the Laser is a fun, simple, inexpensive sports car,
the 505 is a Ferrari (bigger, more expensive, tweakier, and quite a bit
faster), day sailing/racing keelboats like the Sonar, J22. Melges 24 are
trucks, and keelboats with actual sleeping accomodation and heads are
winnebagos. By the way, a long weekend cruising on a "winnebago-type" sailboat
can be wonderful. Even spending the day sailing or racing with friends on
"truck" can be fun. They are just very different from sailing or racing a high
performance dinghy.

Alexander "Ali" Meller
505s 8263, 7200, 8776, 7080
Lasers 11166, 173969
Albacore 4862