On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:25:08 -0500, iBoaterer wrote:

I'm not offended by someone smoking

===

I am.

As a reformed 3 pack a day guy, I find the smell highly offensive.

One of my former colleagues lost his wife to lung cancer when she was
in her 50s, never having smoked a day in her life. She had spent a
lot of time in offices with a lot of smokers around her however.

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article , says...

On 2/23/2012 11:18 PM, Califbill wrote:
"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 12 Feb 2012 14:03:59 -0500, iBoaterer wrote:

How does a
morbidly obese person affect you second hand like smokers do?

Higher health care costs?
Ever been stuck in the center seat on an airliner between two fat
****ers ? I would rather they were skinny people, smoking.

I've already been over that. With smokers, you not only get the benefit
of having to pay for their continued healthcare, you also get the
benefit of a high risk of cancer, heart disease, stroke, emphysema,
etc.
by being forced to inhale their smoke. No other disease or addiction
does that.


-----------------------------------------------
Smokers have been shown to have less of an overall societal cost than
non
smokers in some studies. They die earlier with less end of live cost,
and
less social security payout. Plus the enormous amount of taxes they
have
paid to smoke. Lots more than the health insurance for smokers only
would
have cost. Plus look how much money they put in circulation. One of the
reasons Altria has been one of the best investments since 1970.

Then you're not taking into account the toll from second hand smoke.


-------------------------------------------

No studies have really proved that much damage from 2nd hand smoke. but
the $2-3+ tax on each pack of cigarettes will pay for any extra societal
costs. And I think NY has about an $8 a pack tax. NYC adds to that some
more tax. Might as well agree to a carbon tax, extra boat taxes Maybe
$2k a year for a powered recreational boat. Boat not really needed and
some of those people who think that kayaks and man powered vessels
should be the only thing on waterways. Where you going to stop excess
taxing? NY hid their overspending by adding a couple bucks tax to each
pack. Why should just one segment pay for the rest overspending? Now
that you agree to a tax for consuming an unhealthy substance, please
cough up 200% tax on each McD burger and 500% on fries. Probably McD and
Burger King and Jack kill more than all the tobacco companies combined.
Obesity is an epidemic!


You better believe it. Something like 34% of the nation is obese and
almost literally each and every one of them WILL have health problems
related to it before they die. Fat people seem to get a pass even though
they are probably a lot more of a drain on society than smokers...

Smoke away! Get your kids hooked on them too! Someone else's obesity
doesn't harm your health. Someone else's smoke does. It's that simple.


---------------------------------------
Sure that obesity harms my health. My financial health. And how many
people are harmed by 2nd hand smoke? Most public smoking is prohibited, so
mostly smokers hurt their families, and maybe both parents smoke. Not good
for the kid, but look how many obese parents are feeding their kids the same
crab that makes the parents obese. Probably more than smokers hurting their
offspring. Admitted smoking is a nasty habit, but so are other habits. But
we are supposed to be the land of the free. Free to screw yourself up
should be one of the main freedoms.

"X ` Man" wrote in message ...

On 2/23/12 11:18 PM, Califbill wrote:
"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 12 Feb 2012 14:03:59 -0500, iBoaterer wrote:

How does a
morbidly obese person affect you second hand like smokers do?

Higher health care costs?
Ever been stuck in the center seat on an airliner between two fat
****ers ? I would rather they were skinny people, smoking.

I've already been over that. With smokers, you not only get the benefit
of having to pay for their continued healthcare, you also get the
benefit of a high risk of cancer, heart disease, stroke, emphysema, etc.
by being forced to inhale their smoke. No other disease or addiction
does that.


-----------------------------------------------
Smokers have been shown to have less of an overall societal cost than non
smokers in some studies. They die earlier with less end of live cost, and
less social security payout. Plus the enormous amount of taxes they have
paid to smoke. Lots more than the health insurance for smokers only would
have cost. Plus look how much money they put in circulation. One of the
reasons Altria has been one of the best investments since 1970.

Then you're not taking into account the toll from second hand smoke.


-------------------------------------------

No studies have really proved that much damage from 2nd hand smoke. but
the $2-3+ tax on each pack of cigarettes will pay for any extra societal
costs. And I think NY has about an $8 a pack tax. NYC adds to that some
more tax. Might as well agree to a carbon tax, extra boat taxes Maybe
$2k a year for a powered recreational boat. Boat not really needed and
some of those people who think that kayaks and man powered vessels
should be the only thing on waterways. Where you going to stop excess
taxing? NY hid their overspending by adding a couple bucks tax to each
pack. Why should just one segment pay for the rest overspending? Now
that you agree to a tax for consuming an unhealthy substance, please
cough up 200% tax on each McD burger and 500% on fries. Probably McD and
Burger King and Jack kill more than all the tobacco companies combined.
Obesity is an epidemic!


It took me about a minute to google up reliable cites on the damage
caused by second hand smoke. Frankly, your post reminds me of the shaky
claims cigarette companies made decades ago when they were trying to
deny their products caused lung cancer.

I wouldn't object to extra and heavy taxes on fast food junk food.

--------------------------------------
It must be true, I read it on the internet. Most 2nd hand claims are very
nebulas. My mother who died a year ago at almost 96 said lots of people
called them "Cancer Sticks" even in her youth. Common sense should tell you
they are not any good for you, but as Voltaire said, "common sense is not so
common". The warning has been on the side of the packs for at least 35
years. Anyone claiming damage now, should be tossed from court for
stupidity.

On 2/24/2012 5:10 PM, Califbill wrote:
"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article , says...

On 2/23/2012 11:18 PM, Califbill wrote:
"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 12 Feb 2012 14:03:59 -0500, iBoaterer wrote:

How does a
morbidly obese person affect you second hand like smokers do?

Higher health care costs?
Ever been stuck in the center seat on an airliner between two fat
****ers ? I would rather they were skinny people, smoking.

I've already been over that. With smokers, you not only get the
benefit
of having to pay for their continued healthcare, you also get the
benefit of a high risk of cancer, heart disease, stroke, emphysema,
etc.
by being forced to inhale their smoke. No other disease or addiction
does that.


-----------------------------------------------
Smokers have been shown to have less of an overall societal cost
than non
smokers in some studies. They die earlier with less end of live
cost, and
less social security payout. Plus the enormous amount of taxes they
have
paid to smoke. Lots more than the health insurance for smokers only
would
have cost. Plus look how much money they put in circulation. One of
the
reasons Altria has been one of the best investments since 1970.

Then you're not taking into account the toll from second hand smoke.


-------------------------------------------

No studies have really proved that much damage from 2nd hand smoke. but
the $2-3+ tax on each pack of cigarettes will pay for any extra
societal
costs. And I think NY has about an $8 a pack tax. NYC adds to that some
more tax. Might as well agree to a carbon tax, extra boat taxes Maybe
$2k a year for a powered recreational boat. Boat not really needed and
some of those people who think that kayaks and man powered vessels
should be the only thing on waterways. Where you going to stop excess
taxing? NY hid their overspending by adding a couple bucks tax to each
pack. Why should just one segment pay for the rest overspending? Now
that you agree to a tax for consuming an unhealthy substance, please
cough up 200% tax on each McD burger and 500% on fries. Probably McD
and
Burger King and Jack kill more than all the tobacco companies combined.
Obesity is an epidemic!


You better believe it. Something like 34% of the nation is obese and
almost literally each and every one of them WILL have health problems
related to it before they die. Fat people seem to get a pass even though
they are probably a lot more of a drain on society than smokers...

Smoke away! Get your kids hooked on them too! Someone else's obesity
doesn't harm your health. Someone else's smoke does. It's that simple.


---------------------------------------
Sure that obesity harms my health. My financial health. And how many
people are harmed by 2nd hand smoke? Most public smoking is prohibited,
so mostly smokers hurt their families, and maybe both parents smoke. Not
good for the kid, but look how many obese parents are feeding their kids
the same crab that makes the parents obese. Probably more than smokers
hurting their offspring. Admitted smoking is a nasty habit, but so are
other habits. But we are supposed to be the land of the free. Free to
screw yourself up should be one of the main freedoms.


With a little effort you can minimize the effects of smoking from your
family. It's not perfect, but the first thing we did when we moved into
this house was remove one window in the Office and replace it with a
built in vent fan. My wife only smokes(ed) in the office and the
negative pressure even kept the smell from my dad's mormon (non smokers)
friends in the very next room over, separated by a door... Our house
never smelled like smoke. We had a similar setup upstairs in the office
in Essex. BTW, neither I nor any of our three children smoke cigarettes,
and none of them are obese either.. I am a few pounds heavier than I
should be.

On 2/24/12 5:20 PM, Califbill wrote:
"X ` Man" wrote in message ...

On 2/23/12 11:18 PM, Califbill wrote:
"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 12 Feb 2012 14:03:59 -0500, iBoaterer wrote:

How does a
morbidly obese person affect you second hand like smokers do?

Higher health care costs?
Ever been stuck in the center seat on an airliner between two fat
****ers ? I would rather they were skinny people, smoking.

I've already been over that. With smokers, you not only get the benefit
of having to pay for their continued healthcare, you also get the
benefit of a high risk of cancer, heart disease, stroke, emphysema, etc.
by being forced to inhale their smoke. No other disease or addiction
does that.


-----------------------------------------------
Smokers have been shown to have less of an overall societal cost than
non
smokers in some studies. They die earlier with less end of live cost,
and
less social security payout. Plus the enormous amount of taxes they have
paid to smoke. Lots more than the health insurance for smokers only
would
have cost. Plus look how much money they put in circulation. One of the
reasons Altria has been one of the best investments since 1970.

Then you're not taking into account the toll from second hand smoke.


-------------------------------------------

No studies have really proved that much damage from 2nd hand smoke. but
the $2-3+ tax on each pack of cigarettes will pay for any extra societal
costs. And I think NY has about an $8 a pack tax. NYC adds to that some
more tax. Might as well agree to a carbon tax, extra boat taxes Maybe
$2k a year for a powered recreational boat. Boat not really needed and
some of those people who think that kayaks and man powered vessels
should be the only thing on waterways. Where you going to stop excess
taxing? NY hid their overspending by adding a couple bucks tax to each
pack. Why should just one segment pay for the rest overspending? Now
that you agree to a tax for consuming an unhealthy substance, please
cough up 200% tax on each McD burger and 500% on fries. Probably McD and
Burger King and Jack kill more than all the tobacco companies combined.
Obesity is an epidemic!


It took me about a minute to google up reliable cites on the damage
caused by second hand smoke. Frankly, your post reminds me of the shaky
claims cigarette companies made decades ago when they were trying to
deny their products caused lung cancer.

I wouldn't object to extra and heavy taxes on fast food junk food.

--------------------------------------
It must be true, I read it on the internet. Most 2nd hand claims are
very nebulas. My mother who died a year ago at almost 96 said lots of
people called them "Cancer Sticks" even in her youth. Common sense
should tell you they are not any good for you, but as Voltaire said,
"common sense is not so common". The warning has been on the side of the
packs for at least 35 years. Anyone claiming damage now, should be
tossed from court for stupidity.





It helps to know how to do reliable research via Google. I haven't read
"most" claims about second-hand smoke, but I have read some from
reliable medical and scientific sources.

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 10:43:01 -0500, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

Then you're not taking into account the toll from second hand smoke.

Where is the proof that people die from second hand smoke.

http://tinyurl.com/6t3p65o

The Effects of Secondhand Smoke on Adults

There is a lot of conjecture out there but they never put any real
numbers on it. Virtually every other pollutant has OSHA established
threshold limit values but cigarette smoke is seen to have a level of
zero. Are they really trying to say cigarette smoke is more dangerous
than all of the other chemicals that OSHA regulates?
The issue is simply that non smokers or "quit" smokers are offended if
they even SEE someone smoking. It is just about the only class of
people who can be discriminated against with impunity.

If you are simply using the health care cost issue, obesity is a far
bigger problem..

Someone else being obese doesn't harm YOUR health. Being around a smoker
does. I'm not offended by someone smoking, I just don't want mine or my
children's health compromised.


http://www.epa.gov/smokefree/healtheffects.html

http://www.cancer.org/Cancer/CancerC...condhand-smoke

Do you have independent peer reviewed studies that prove that 2nd hand
smoke from cigarettes kills people?

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:25:08 -0500, iBoaterer wrote:

I'm not offended by someone smoking

===

I am.

As a reformed 3 pack a day guy, I find the smell highly offensive.

One of my former colleagues lost his wife to lung cancer when she was
in her 50s, never having smoked a day in her life. She had spent a
lot of time in offices with a lot of smokers around her however.

My father in-law died of lung cancer. It was from hexavalent(sp?)
chromium. Inhaling one molecule can cause lung cancer.

My mother developed Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. There were 4 people on the
street I grew up on who developed it and 3 died from it. My mother has
survived 15 years. Was it exposure to agent orange? Was it exposure to
other chemical weapons from living on military bases all of her life or
was it some other environmental cause. Why did the other three people on
the street develop the same cancer within a 15 year span of time?

On 2/24/2012 11:40 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

In ,
says...

On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 10:43:01 -0500, wrote:

In ,
says...

Then you're not taking into account the toll from second hand smoke.

Where is the proof that people die from second hand smoke.

http://tinyurl.com/6t3p65o

The Effects of Secondhand Smoke on Adults

There is a lot of conjecture out there but they never put any real
numbers on it. Virtually every other pollutant has OSHA established
threshold limit values but cigarette smoke is seen to have a level of
zero. Are they really trying to say cigarette smoke is more dangerous
than all of the other chemicals that OSHA regulates?
The issue is simply that non smokers or "quit" smokers are offended if
they even SEE someone smoking. It is just about the only class of
people who can be discriminated against with impunity.

If you are simply using the health care cost issue, obesity is a far
bigger problem..

Someone else being obese doesn't harm YOUR health. Being around a smoker
does. I'm not offended by someone smoking, I just don't want mine or my
children's health compromised.


http://www.epa.gov/smokefree/healtheffects.html

http://www.cancer.org/Cancer/CancerC...condhand-smoke

Do you have independent peer reviewed studies that prove that 2nd hand
smoke from cigarettes kills people?



.... and who says obese people don't effect others. I bet there is more
generation to generation obesity passed on, then generation to
generation cigarette smokers. And quite frankly, I have been in cars
with morbidly obese people who really couldn't maneuver enough in the
drivers area (and this was a Lincoln Towncar) to be safe on the road...
Either way, the phrase above again, is based on feelings, not facts...

On 2/25/2012 12:32 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:25:08 -0500, wrote:

In ,
says...

On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 10:43:01 -0500, wrote:

In ,
says...

Then you're not taking into account the toll from second hand smoke.

Where is the proof that people die from second hand smoke.

http://tinyurl.com/6t3p65o

The Effects of Secondhand Smoke on Adults

There is a lot of conjecture out there but they never put any real
numbers on it. Virtually every other pollutant has OSHA established
threshold limit values but cigarette smoke is seen to have a level of
zero. Are they really trying to say cigarette smoke is more dangerous
than all of the other chemicals that OSHA regulates?
The issue is simply that non smokers or "quit" smokers are offended if
they even SEE someone smoking. It is just about the only class of
people who can be discriminated against with impunity.

If you are simply using the health care cost issue, obesity is a far
bigger problem..

Someone else being obese doesn't harm YOUR health. Being around a smoker
does. I'm not offended by someone smoking, I just don't want mine or my
children's health compromised.


http://www.epa.gov/smokefree/healtheffects.html

http://www.cancer.org/Cancer/CancerC...condhand-smoke


"Both mainstream and SHS contain about 20 chemicals that, in high
concentrations, cause breast cancer in rodents"

The operative words are "High concentrations"
A whiff of cigarette smoke is no more dangerous than a whiff of diesel
smoke or that blue cloud coming from a 2 stroke outboard.
The flaw in all of these studies is they do not specify the
concentration that is dangerous. Just smelling something does not mean
the concentration will hurt you. That is true of EVERY chemical OSHA
regulates.

That's because the regulations on tobacco are because of feelings, not
facts like all of the other regulated substances.

On 2/24/12 12:43 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 10:43:01 -0500, wrote:

In ,
says...

Then you're not taking into account the toll from second hand smoke.

Where is the proof that people die from second hand smoke.

http://tinyurl.com/6t3p65o

The Effects of Secondhand Smoke on Adults

There is a lot of conjecture out there but they never put any real
numbers on it. Virtually every other pollutant has OSHA established
threshold limit values but cigarette smoke is seen to have a level of
zero. Are they really trying to say cigarette smoke is more dangerous
than all of the other chemicals that OSHA regulates?
The issue is simply that non smokers or "quit" smokers are offended if
they even SEE someone smoking. It is just about the only class of
people who can be discriminated against with impunity.

If you are simply using the health care cost issue, obesity is a far
bigger problem..

You're working awfully hard to rationalize the filthy, offensive habit
of smoking.