Hi Folks,

Well, it finally happened. After 25 years of paddling, I finally had an
uber-wipeout that led to me separating from my craft.

It happened on Lolo Creek, a scene of others' epic stories, but mostly until
now a source of fun and entertainment for myself. Lolo Creek is a Class
IV-V run with 6 miles of 160 fpm in the middle. Wiping out in the middle of
the steep stuff is what I did, and since the steep stuff on Lolo Creek is
all pointed downhill (there aren't any pools to speak of) my boat has now
taken off for the Clearwater.

The boat is a red Riot Big Gun. After numerous problems with this boat, I
can't really recommend it for people like me. The vast majority of these
new creekers are designed for much better boaters than myself, and they
demand a more athletic style. They also top out right at my weight limit
(I'm 250 lbs., and not really very fat either), so their sharp gunwhales and
abbreviated rocker in the tail make it bad when the boat spins around
backward. Not stable. Believe me.

I flipped in the middle of the drop known as Chaos or Maniac. I spun
around, dug my tail in, and turned upside down. My Grateful Heads Hard Hit
took about 5 hits-- it worked great. I was up against a rock, unable to
roll, when I finally hit the button and aqua-projected. After a few
desperate seconds of holding on to my boat, I realized that it was gonna be
the boat or my life.

Hiking out of Lolo Creek was epic, but not as epic as I always had dreaded.
I had to scramble like a four-legged herbivore up 1800 vertical feet of 45
degree slope crumbling granite. Not fun-- falling would have meant very bad
things-- probably worse than what the river had already done to me. I made
it, then wandered around lost on old logging roads, learning tons about the
local geography-- knowledge gained by going the wrong direction. I finally
ended up at a very nice, crusty old farmer's house. I regaled them with
tales of my stupidity, so they let me use their phone and gave me a hot cup
of tea.

I all ears about real STABLE creekers for big guys. I've been thinking
about the Micro 250. Since this boat is out of production, I haven't the
foggiest where I'd locate one.

I've also thought about the Prijon Kompressor. Any comments would be
appreciated-- Wilko?

Quite frankly, I'm looking for a boat that WON'T spin on a dime. This is
not a real advantage for me, mortal kayaker that I am, doing runs that
almost never have gradients steeper than 180'/mile. Most of the runs I do
actually have real water, too, but it would be nice to have a boat that slid
predictably off rocks. The Big Gun never did for me.

I'm alive.

Best,

Chuck

Epic story there Chuck!

Glad you got out in one piece: heard anything from your boat again yet?

I paddled the Kompressor once, found it indeed to be more stable than my
Salto, but to be honest, that's not what I look for in a creek boat.
I'll paddle class IV stuff in my (really low volume: 180 litre) Flip
Stick, only if it gets above that, or if I want more comfort, then I use
my Salto.

You're in the wrong size group, I'm afraid. With my 220 lbs, I already
manage to be overweight for a lot (most) of designs. :-(

Good luck finding the right boat!

Wilko

Charles Pezeshki wrote:

Hi Folks,

Well, it finally happened. After 25 years of paddling, I finally had an
uber-wipeout that led to me separating from my craft.

It happened on Lolo Creek, a scene of others' epic stories, but mostly until
now a source of fun and entertainment for myself. Lolo Creek is a Class
IV-V run with 6 miles of 160 fpm in the middle. Wiping out in the middle of
the steep stuff is what I did, and since the steep stuff on Lolo Creek is
all pointed downhill (there aren't any pools to speak of) my boat has now
taken off for the Clearwater.

The boat is a red Riot Big Gun. After numerous problems with this boat, I
can't really recommend it for people like me. The vast majority of these
new creekers are designed for much better boaters than myself, and they
demand a more athletic style. They also top out right at my weight limit
(I'm 250 lbs., and not really very fat either), so their sharp gunwhales and
abbreviated rocker in the tail make it bad when the boat spins around
backward. Not stable. Believe me.

I flipped in the middle of the drop known as Chaos or Maniac. I spun
around, dug my tail in, and turned upside down. My Grateful Heads Hard Hit
took about 5 hits-- it worked great. I was up against a rock, unable to
roll, when I finally hit the button and aqua-projected. After a few
desperate seconds of holding on to my boat, I realized that it was gonna be
the boat or my life.

Hiking out of Lolo Creek was epic, but not as epic as I always had dreaded.
I had to scramble like a four-legged herbivore up 1800 vertical feet of 45
degree slope crumbling granite. Not fun-- falling would have meant very bad
things-- probably worse than what the river had already done to me. I made
it, then wandered around lost on old logging roads, learning tons about the
local geography-- knowledge gained by going the wrong direction. I finally
ended up at a very nice, crusty old farmer's house. I regaled them with
tales of my stupidity, so they let me use their phone and gave me a hot cup
of tea.

I all ears about real STABLE creekers for big guys. I've been thinking
about the Micro 250. Since this boat is out of production, I haven't the
foggiest where I'd locate one.

I've also thought about the Prijon Kompressor. Any comments would be
appreciated-- Wilko?

Quite frankly, I'm looking for a boat that WON'T spin on a dime. This is
not a real advantage for me, mortal kayaker that I am, doing runs that
almost never have gradients steeper than 180'/mile. Most of the runs I do
actually have real water, too, but it would be nice to have a boat that slid
predictably off rocks. The Big Gun never did for me.

I'm alive.

Best,

Chuck


--
Wilko van den Bergh Wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

"Charles Pezeshki" wrote in message
...
Hi Folks,

Well, it finally happened. After 25 years of paddling, I finally had an
uber-wipeout that led to me separating from my craft.


Epic. Welcome back.
:-)

--riverman

Hi Wilko,

I heard that Eskimo may bring out a bigger Salto. True?

You're probably right at the top of the Salto's weight range, I'd think.

The problem that I have at 250 lbs. Is that these boats behave VERY badly
for me. I get few of the benefits (only if the boat is on a plane) and a
new set of very bad traits. Lighter people wouldn't have the foggiest what
I'm talking about-- but think about it this way. When the boat is moving
fast, it planes. When it stalls, it sinks, and the gunwhales are now about
1" above the waterline. Very different than if you weighed 2/3 of my
weight.

Best,

Chuck

in article , Wilko at
wrote on 6/6/04 8:38 PM:

You're in the wrong size group, I'm afraid. With my 220 lbs, I already
manage to be overweight for a lot (most) of designs. :-(

Good luck finding the right boat!

Wilko

Charles Pezeshki wrote:

I heard that Eskimo may bring out a bigger Salto. True?

I heard the same thing, that doesn't make it true though. :-)

You're probably right at the top of the Salto's weight range, I'd think.

I'm within the range according to the people I talked to at Eskimo, but
some outsiders think differently. I think that in your case the 30 lbs
of extra weight might not be as much of a problem as trying to get
muscular thighs under the thigh braces. Have you ever tried to get into one?

I know a German paddler who outweighs you by probably 15 to 20 lbs who
also paddles a Salto. That's sitting lower in the water than I would
like, but he likes it that way.

The problem that I have at 250 lbs. Is that these boats behave VERY badly
for me. I get few of the benefits (only if the boat is on a plane) and a
new set of very bad traits. Lighter people wouldn't have the foggiest what
I'm talking about-- but think about it this way. When the boat is moving
fast, it planes. When it stalls, it sinks, and the gunwhales are now about
1" above the waterline. Very different than if you weighed 2/3 of my
weight.

I've had a few "over the weight for a boat model" problems myself, but
I've come to see paddling a boat like that to just require a different
style of paddling. As long as I manage the nose from burying, I'll try
it. My Flip Stick sure is too low volume for me, but I think it's fun
and I manage to squeeze in, so I'm not bothered by other people's
opinions. :-)

Then again, seeing people almost sink a Diablo because of being well
over the upper weight range does make me wonder about them having much
fun on the water. :-(

Looks like someone weighing over 200 lbs or being taller or more
muscular than average has a big problem finding a good boat. Eskimo
might have a point and a piece of the market with their idea for a
bigger Salto. The New Topolino is kind of like the smaller creekboat, so
a bigger creekboat would fit the scale nicely. :-)

Wilko

--
Wilko van den Bergh Wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

"Charles Pezeshki" wrote in message
...
Hi Folks,

Well, it finally happened. After 25 years of paddling, I finally had an
uber-wipeout that led to me separating from my craft.



Chuck: I've been thinking about your adventure all afternoon, and it reminds
me of my own close call. If it wasn't for my fireman safety boater who
resuced my boat, I would have been deep in the wilderness and in deep
doo-doo myself.

Some thoughts:
1) What were you wearing for footwear? This particular discussion has come
and gone here umpteen times, and we know that we primarily wear footwear for
keeping our feet comfortable while jammed under the deck, but how did it
fare for your 1800 vertical foot scree slope scramble? You probably thought
once or twice about improvements that were possible...

2) What was the situation that you left the river? The standard protocol is
to follow the stream down, so that rescuers can find you, or so that you
might (someday) find your boat. Of course, local environment can change
that, so was there something impassible or some reason that you chose to
climb a dangerous cliff and wander lost among woods roads instead of
following the river? Were you already formally or informally familiar with
the uphill terrain?

3) I know when I almost lost my boat, a primary thought I had was that my
emergency food, water and first aid stuff was strapped into the boat. I
always rig my gear so that I can get that stuff out in case of an ugly pin,
but when the boat went downstream, I realized the small flaw in my plan. Did
you have any emergency rations (water, matches, a cell phone) somewhere on
your person so that it was still with you after bail-out? Did you think of
anything you wish you had with you after bail-out, other than your boat?
Do you have any thoughts of how that stuff could be attached, but not be an
entrapment hazard?

--riverman

Charles Pezeshki wrote:

It happened on Lolo Creek, a scene of others' epic stories, but mostly until
now a source of fun and entertainment for myself. Lolo Creek is a Class
IV-V run with 6 miles of 160 fpm in the middle. Wiping out in the middle of
the steep stuff is what I did, and since the steep stuff on Lolo Creek is
all pointed downhill (there aren't any pools to speak of) my boat has now
taken off for the Clearwater.

Were you leading? (This is why I try to follow ;-)

The boat is a red Riot Big Gun. After numerous problems with this boat, I
can't really recommend it for people like me.

Creek boats with highest capacity listed on http://www.kayaknews.ca a

Pyranha H3/Micro/H2
Wavesport Y
Noah Ascento G
Prijon Embudo/Kompressor/Kaituna

In addition, these boats are unrated but have high volume:

Robson Charger
Necky Blunt
Liquid Logic Gus

You might try that website, selectin Creek boats and sorting by volume.

The BlissStick Huka is unrated for weight but has relatively high volume,
and is the only one of the above boats, besides the Gus, that I have
actually seen people paddling. My friend with a LL Gus likes it a lot,
even when loaded with overnight gear. One friend likes his Huka, but
he is small and light. Another friend doesn't like his Huka.

Hi Riverman,

See below.

in article , riverman at wrote
on 6/7/04 11:51 AM:

Chuck: I've been thinking about your adventure all afternoon, and it reminds
me of my own close call. If it wasn't for my fireman safety boater who
resuced my boat, I would have been deep in the wilderness and in deep
doo-doo myself.

Some thoughts:
1) What were you wearing for footwear? This particular discussion has come
and gone here umpteen times, and we know that we primarily wear footwear for
keeping our feet comfortable while jammed under the deck, but how did it
fare for your 1800 vertical foot scree slope scramble? You probably thought
once or twice about improvements that were possible...

I was wearing some 5-10 Nemo booties. Quite frankly, they worked great. No
blisters, they fit in my boat, and they worked great climbing out. Of
course, one would always like to have better footwear, but they really did
quite well.


2) What was the situation that you left the river? The standard protocol is
to follow the stream down, so that rescuers can find you, or so that you
might (someday) find your boat. Of course, local environment can change
that, so was there something impassible or some reason that you chose to
climb a dangerous cliff and wander lost among woods roads instead of
following the river? Were you already formally or informally familiar with
the uphill terrain?

I did follow the river down, but with 12 miles between me and civilization,
that was not gonna get me out that night. I knew the upper topography and
knew that there were farms up on top, as well as logging roads. Being
acquainted with the topography really helps, though. No doubt.

Lolo Creek is an interesting place in that it is a pocket wilderness,
surrounded by two occupied upland plateaus that are farmed. That's the way
a lot of the Clearwater Country is.

Along the creek proper is a mixed old-growth cedar forest, as well as steep
banks and cliffs. Though I did travel about 2 miles downriver, the risk of
injury was high. I could have fallen from the sharply incised riverbanks,
or drowned swimming down to the next spot. It was a good decision to hike
where I did. I got out before my buddies did.


3) I know when I almost lost my boat, a primary thought I had was that my
emergency food, water and first aid stuff was strapped into the boat. I
always rig my gear so that I can get that stuff out in case of an ugly pin,
but when the boat went downstream, I realized the small flaw in my plan. Did
you have any emergency rations (water, matches, a cell phone) somewhere on
your person so that it was still with you after bail-out? Did you think of
anything you wish you had with you after bail-out, other than your boat?
Do you have any thoughts of how that stuff could be attached, but not be an
entrapment hazard?

Well, I lost the boat, and the stuff in it. A friend gave me his small
river bag with a waist belt--- highly recommended. I think everyone should
get one-- that way, if you crash and burn, your buddy can give you his
'hike-out' kit. The fact that I was able to strap that thing to my waist
improved my climb out pretty dramatically.

I had a quart of water. It might have been good to have in the hike-out kit
some water purification tablets. But I had food and everything else that I
needed.

The error (which I knew at the put-in) was the group was too large. I
personally like paddling small steep creeks with no more than 2 other
people. There is not safety in numbers-- when there's a constantly
vanishing horizon line, you just can't keep track of a large group.

I don't fault my fellow paddlers, though. When one is running serious,
continuous Class V (as we were), you take your chances.

Best,

Chuck

Charles Pezeshki

Typed in Message-ID:

I was wearing some 5-10 Nemo booties. Quite frankly, they worked great. No
blisters, they fit in my boat, and they worked great climbing out. Of
course, one would always like to have better footwear, but they really did
quite well.

I've used the Nemo Highs for about 2 years now and like them pretty well.
However, they are getting a little better that 100 river days on them and they
are starting to show their age and will have to be replaced. I've looked
seriously at the NRS Attack or one of the Teva river shoes.

Well, I lost the boat, and the stuff in it. A friend gave me his small
river bag with a waist belt--- highly recommended. I think everyone should
get one-- that way, if you crash and burn, your buddy can give you his
'hike-out' kit. The fact that I was able to strap that thing to my waist
improved my climb out pretty

dramatically.

I had a quart of water. It might have been good to have in the hike-out kit
some water purification tablets. But I had food and everything else that I

I hadn't thought of the hike out kit, but thats a good idea. I added water
purification tablets to my normal kit a couple of years ago after coming close
to having to spend the night in an emergency bivouac after dealing with an
uncooperative shoulder dislocation victim. The other choice might be to use one
of those bottles with the built in purifier.

I've had the same problem finding a new boat. I've tried a bunch and finally
went back and bought a wavesport Y. You outweight me by a good bit, but at 210+
and 5'9", I've found that the high front cockpit rim that is so common on new
creekers to be a pain in the ass to roll, and frankly, I'm not really impressed
with any enough to go to the trouble of relearning a different techneque.

Planing Hull boats performance degrades quicker under load than old style
boats.

Good luck on the search of a new boat. You could join Bill and I over on the
dark side and start paddling a duckie:^).


SYOTR
Larry C.

HI Larry,

After my little hike-a-roo, I've been thinking about getting three hike-out
kits with belts/beltpack features to distribute to my homeboys at the
put-in. That way there's no issue who wins/loses at the Class V rodeo.

I've also thought about quitting Class V altogether. Not to sound like a
snob, but most Eastern "standard" Class V (Watauga, Upper Yough, etc.) isn't
really in the same league as some of the Western stuff-- the main difference
being not so much in the difficulty of the individual drops, but in the
consequences of a swim in truly continuous whitewater.

I'm 41, got two kids. I gots to stay alive!

I've also done a heckuva lot of research on big boy boats. The two I've
fingered are the Dagger Nomad and the Robson Charger. They're definitely
way better for me than a Big Gun. The ethical question is considering all
the other things I do, and my slowly advancing age and lack of commitment to
those 45-day-a-year years, should I be jumping on relatively hard runs at
all?

I'm also looking at the Pyranha s6f, and wondering if I should buy one, beat
myself senseless on the local play wave, and hang up those Class V spurs. I
earned my Macho Merit Badge a long time ago, and while I'm in great cardio
shape, I'm no natural athlete. I'm lucky if I can chew gum and walk at the
same time. And I can always paddle my Tornado on any run that I actually
belong on that's a little difficult.

But as far as that ducky thing, well... I dunno!

Best,

Chuck

in article , Larry Cable at
ospam wrote on 6/9/04 5:58 PM:

Good luck on the search of a new boat. You could join Bill and I over on the
dark side and start paddling a duckie:^).