For a country that prides itself in its free press, I was amazed to see
coverage of the photos of US soldiers torturing and humiating Iraqi detainee
on all the tv news stations last night, all except CNN. South Africa had it,
Sky News from Britain had it headlined, even the local Congolese news had
it. Not a word on CNN International. Today, it finally comes out in Reuters.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...aq_pictures_dc

When you get outside the US, you see our country in a similar light as how
much of the world sees it. Stories come across in the news differently,
attitudes about our actions and our influence are colored entirely
differently, and the old phrase 'Fortress America' has new meaning. This
latest thing is atrocious, and I am sure than there isn't a single American
living in the states who fully realizes how distainful, discrediting and
compromising this makes us look.

I trepidaciously look forward to how Bush will pass blame for this on to
someone else.

--riverman

Riverman;

It is absolutely unbelievable what the press in this country reports and
what it does not report.

When the government in Spain changed in the recent election, most
networks described it as the "Convervatives being voted out of office."
Ditto for the recent French regional elections. No mention was ever
made of the party names that defeated them. They can't bring themselves
to us the "S" word.

Last weekend, a few folks gathered in Washington, DC. There was
some mention of a DC rally, however, the US Park Service has stated
that "it is not the job of the Park Service to count people." The rally
permit was for 800,000 people. Some attendees estimated the actual
number close to 1 million, others only 700,000. Either way, there were
more people in attendance to support their cause than the total military
active in Iraq, little or no mention was made on the news. While the
"Liberal Media" might broadcast news in support of its political agenda
and generate an outcry, no notice is made when the "Conservative Media"
edits out stories which does not support their agenda. If you don't hear
about it, you have no way of knowing. Very effective.

It may not be an overt policy, and it may not be anything more than a
side effect of gaining more efficieny by consolidating smaller networks
into larger networks, but I would be very worried if there were only one
or two news networks. The best anyone can do is make sure that at least
one of the news broadcasts you watch is from outside the US. (BBC, CBC,
or French newscasts). Clearly one has to ask "Why are they telling me this."

Amy Goodman recently described the press coverage in the runup to the Iraq war.
392 interviews featured people advocating war with Iraq. 4 featured opponents.
There are choices made that influence the content that is presented to the
American public. And this is the American public glued to it easychair,
watching
reality TV and thinking they are getting the truth. For a country that prides
itself
on it's individualism, most Americans little realize the degree that their
views are
quietly being shaped. Repeat the mantra over and over and over again, and it
will
take root.

The reality will interfere ultimately. You can't fire every photographer that
publishes
photos of a plane full of coffins being returned in the middle of the night.
Sooner
or later, everyone will be only two or three degrees of separation from someone
who
was killed in Iraq. And sadly, it will ultimately become more intimate than
that. Nearly
everyone my age knew someone who died in Vietnam. Only when everyones friend,
son, nephew, or cousin was killed did the political tide turn.

I find it interesting that most of the war hawks are always those who have
never
traveled outside of the US. On my last trip abroad, I spent my time looking
at
my shoes,embarrased to be an American, wondering if I could pass as a Canadian.

Meanwhile, back here in Fortress America, we continue to not hold our
government
accountable, fail to exercise the democratic process we attempt to impose on
others,
continue to accept the opinions of national newscasters as fact, and evade
asking the
hard questions.

I do not blame Bush for being who he is. The real problem in this country are
the Sheep
that eatup the crap presented to them without question and march their young
blindly
off to slaughter.

RailTramp

Blakely LaCroix
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA.
RBP Clique member # 86.

The best adventure is yet to come.

in article , Blakely LaCroix at
wrote on 4/30/04 8:04 AM:

I do not blame Bush for being who he is. The real problem in this country are
the Sheep
that eatup the crap presented to them without question and march their young
blindly
off to slaughter.

RailTramp


Amen, Blakely.

Many of my own liberal friends are acting as if Kerry gets elected, then all
will pass. Of course, I support Kerry, but I still say:

"We didn't get here overnight, and we're not gonna get out of here
overnight."

Best,

Chuck

me too.

I wouldn't usually bother posting that, but I am afraid many folks
think Bush has a very good chance of being re-elected. I hope that is
not true. Articles and viewpoints like this help me to wake up
tomorrow morning with a brighter outlook.

I have never felt this stongly about any election.

And I am sorry, Wilko, but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq
overnight. Far as I can tell, we will be there for a while.

I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one
day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being
an American.

-Dan V.

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:33:37 -0700, Charles Pezeshki
wrote:

in article , Blakely LaCroix at
wrote on 4/30/04 8:04 AM:

I do not blame Bush for being who he is. The real problem in this country are
the Sheep
that eatup the crap presented to them without question and march their young
blindly
off to slaughter.

RailTramp


Amen, Blakely.

Many of my own liberal friends are acting as if Kerry gets elected, then all
will pass. Of course, I support Kerry, but I still say:

"We didn't get here overnight, and we're not gonna get out of here
overnight."

Best,

Chuck

I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one
day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being
an American.
I would like to travel to the US with out being taken for a terrorist at
every security check point just because I have three Iranian visas in my
passport. Random selection by the computer my ass! On my last GC trip a
good friend of mine refused to come as this was his protest at the Iraq
war - he is Scottish and so claims no allegiance with Blair.

I just hope that the electors remember the actions of their leaders when
the elections arrive yours in the US in November and ours here in the UK
whenever Blair wants to hold it in the next 18 months. VOTE it is the
only way to change things unless you can find a super power to come and
overthrow the corrupt governments we have!

-Dan V.

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:33:37 -0700, Charles Pezeshki
wrote:

in article , Blakely LaCroix at
wrote on 4/30/04 8:04 AM:

I do not blame Bush for being who he is. The real problem in this
country are
the Sheep
that eatup the crap presented to them without question and march their young
blindly
off to slaughter.

RailTramp


Amen, Blakely.

Many of my own liberal friends are acting as if Kerry gets elected, then all
will pass. Of course, I support Kerry, but I still say:

"We didn't get here overnight, and we're not gonna get out of here
overnight."

Best,

Chuck


--
Dave Manby
Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at
http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk

riverman wrote:
This
latest thing is atrocious, and I am sure than there isn't a single American
living in the states who fully realizes how distainful, discrediting and
compromising this makes us look.

Agreed.

I trepidaciously look forward to how Bush will pass blame for this on to
someone else.

The blame rests with the people who did it. That seems pretty evident.
There's no reason to pass the blame, what's needed is to prosecute the
guilty parties.

Dan Valleskey wrote:

I wouldn't usually bother posting that, but I am afraid many folks
think Bush has a very good chance of being re-elected.

He does, especially since it's becoming clearer that Kerry can't be
trusted to tell the truth about much of anything. He's just another
typical politician.

And I am sorry, Wilko, but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq
overnight. Far as I can tell, we will be there for a while.

Good. The worst thing we could do is to simply pull out. It's going to
take time to stabilize Iraq and we shouldn't leave until that job is
done. I'll give Kerry credit that he at least seems to understand that.

BTW, why would you apologize to Wilko? His fairy tale ideas about an
immediate pullout and UN control are ridiculous.

I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one
day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being
an American.

Why would you be ashamed? Have YOU done anything that you consider wrong
or hurtful to the rest of the world? There's a big difference between
"the government" and "the people", here and everywhere around the world.
There are many things I'm not pleased with about our culture and
government policies, but that doesn't make me ashamed to be an American.

"Dan Valleskey" valleskey at comcast dot net wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one
day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being
an American.

stuff snipped

Ashamed to be an American? Get involved and change the system or find
somewhere you aren't ashamed of. What kind of a coward just puts up with
something he's ashamed of?

(Sorry, I know I shouldn't fee the trolls.)

On Sat, 01 May 2004 13:33:12 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:

Dan Valleskey wrote:
snip..
And I am sorry, Wilko, but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq
overnight. Far as I can tell, we will be there for a while.

snip..

BTW, why would you apologize to Wilko? His fairy tale ideas about an
immediate pullout and UN control are ridiculous.

I know him, I value his opinions. He has seen more than I ever will.
His thoughts and opinions are not pulled out of mid-air. He is very
very intelligent, in my opinion, and I suspect well read. He has a
different viewpoint than any American is likely to have. Let's not
forget that Usenet is a world wide forum. And- what I said was- I
am sorry but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq overnight..... Yes,
we have an obligation to leave them in a bettter situiation. I am
sorry that we will be there for some time, to effect needed changes.
And I am sorry that Americans will die in that effort.



I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one
day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being
an American.

Why would you be ashamed? Have YOU done anything that you consider wrong
or hurtful to the rest of the world? There's a big difference between
"the government" and "the people", here and everywhere around the world.
There are many things I'm not pleased with about our culture and
government policies, but that doesn't make me ashamed to be an American.


I agree, was it Ed Abbey that said, love your country, but hate
(?mistrust?) it's government. Unfortunatly, the man I (and the
majority in this country) voted for did not get into office.

Maybe "ashamed" was not the best word I could have used. But I was
sure not proud that I was an American, when I was in Europe. It is a
big world, and many of the people in it don't like me, because of my
government. America attacked Iraq without just cause. So we are
scorned in many places. Do you like that?

You (or someone in this thread) mentioned something about my being a
troll. I resent that. I have posted on RBP for many years. I
prefaced my remarks (to an OT posting) that I did not take this stance
lightly. I am not standing here on a soap box just to make trouble,
just to rattle the cage. People who read this may one day paddle with
me, share a campfire with me. I hope they understand my views to some
extent, even if they don't agree with me. A troll? Not as I
understand the meaning of the word in this context.

If you want to take this discussion off usenet, I believe you can find
my true email address in my signature. I am even willing to talk to
you on the phone, just contact me off RBP. But please don't call me a
troll.

-Dan V.

Dan Valleskey wrote:
On Sat, 01 May 2004 13:33:12 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:


Dan Valleskey wrote:

snip..

And I am sorry, Wilko, but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq
overnight. Far as I can tell, we will be there for a while.

snip..

BTW, why would you apologize to Wilko? His fairy tale ideas about an
immediate pullout and UN control are ridiculous.


I know him, I value his opinions. He has seen more than I ever will.
His thoughts and opinions are not pulled out of mid-air. He is very
very intelligent, in my opinion, and I suspect well read. He has a
different viewpoint than any American is likely to have.

Go back and read what he suggested, then tell it how intelligent they
are. He's pulling completely unworkable "solutions" out of his ass,
based on emotion rather than logic.

Let's not forget that Usenet is a world wide forum.

I'm well aware of that. Stupidity is also a worldwide phenomenon.

And- what I said was- I
am sorry but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq overnight..... Yes,
we have an obligation to leave them in a bettter situiation. I am
sorry that we will be there for some time, to effect needed changes.
And I am sorry that Americans will die in that effort.

Agreed.

I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one
day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being
an American.

Why would you be ashamed? Have YOU done anything that you consider wrong
or hurtful to the rest of the world? There's a big difference between
"the government" and "the people", here and everywhere around the world.
There are many things I'm not pleased with about our culture and
government policies, but that doesn't make me ashamed to be an American.



I agree, was it Ed Abbey that said, love your country, but hate
(?mistrust?) it's government. Unfortunatly, the man I (and the
majority in this country) voted for did not get into office.

Are you still whining about the election? It's been 3 1/2 years, get
over it.

Maybe "ashamed" was not the best word I could have used. But I was
sure not proud that I was an American, when I was in Europe. It is a
big world, and many of the people in it don't like me, because of my
government.

Then they are narrow minded idiots. Do you hate all Saudis because a
bunch of them took down the WTC on 9/11? I certainly don't and there's
no reason for anyone not to make similar distinctions between people and
governments.

America attacked Iraq without just cause.

I don't agree.

So we are scorned in many places. Do you like that?

Of course not, but it's nothing new. There will always be people who
hate us because we're the "big kid on the block". We're constantly in
no-win situations. If we act, we're criticized. If we don't act and some
bad happens as a result, we're criticized. The world if full of "Monday
morning quarterbacks" and we're never going to win them all over.

You (or someone in this thread) mentioned something about my being a
troll.

It wasn't me.