On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 20:00:14 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



"X ~ Man" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...471223268.html

This **** is getting old.

Do you think we should be able to rape the environment and pollute at
will? Have you seen how the rain forests are decimated and will never
return to what they were? What about poisons in your drinking water, are
you okay with that?

----------------------------------------------------------------

Harry, (assuming your *are* Harry)

The USA signed the International CITES agreement in 1973 that is designed to
protect overharvested and therefore
endangered species ... most wood. Since then only the protected wood that
was harvested before 1969 or thereabouts
can be used. It's not just guitars. It's furniture, picture frames...
etc.

In 2008, the US Fish and Wildlife Service unilaterally decided to expand
the interpretation and enforcement to cover
virtually anything that was once alive. This is includes abalone inlays in
guitars, more wood species (as they
deem fit) and, of course, anything else that was once alive. It's a little
bit carried away because much that they are
"protecting" isn't any where near being endangered.

The amount of material used in guitars is minor compared to furniture and
other products. Problem with guitars
is that if you happen to travel out of the country with your beautiful and
favorite Martin D-35 that happens to have
some abalone in it's rosette or headstock inlay and then try to return ...
it may be confiscated and destroyed.

Protecting endangered species is one thing, but those with the badges are
getting a little carried away.

Eisboch

Perhaps, perhaps not. They had a history of violations, apparently. It
will likely be sorted out in court don't you think?

As to degree, imagine what happens to someone who smuggles in an
exotic bird. It's just one bird, but how many had to be caught for
that to happen.

wrote in message ...

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 20:00:14 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



"X ~ Man" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...471223268.html

This **** is getting old.

Do you think we should be able to rape the environment and pollute at
will? Have you seen how the rain forests are decimated and will never
return to what they were? What about poisons in your drinking water, are
you okay with that?

----------------------------------------------------------------

Harry, (assuming your *are* Harry)

The USA signed the International CITES agreement in 1973 that is designed
to
protect overharvested and therefore
endangered species ... most wood. Since then only the protected wood that
was harvested before 1969 or thereabouts
can be used. It's not just guitars. It's furniture, picture frames...
etc.

In 2008, the US Fish and Wildlife Service unilaterally decided to expand
the interpretation and enforcement to cover
virtually anything that was once alive. This is includes abalone inlays
in
guitars, more wood species (as they
deem fit) and, of course, anything else that was once alive. It's a
little
bit carried away because much that they are
"protecting" isn't any where near being endangered.

The amount of material used in guitars is minor compared to furniture and
other products. Problem with guitars
is that if you happen to travel out of the country with your beautiful and
favorite Martin D-35 that happens to have
some abalone in it's rosette or headstock inlay and then try to return ...
it may be confiscated and destroyed.

Protecting endangered species is one thing, but those with the badges are
getting a little carried away.

Eisboch

Perhaps, perhaps not. They had a history of violations, apparently. It
will likely be sorted out in court don't you think?

As to degree, imagine what happens to someone who smuggles in an
exotic bird. It's just one bird, but how many had to be caught for
that to happen.

-------------------------------------------------------

My bet is that Gibson will produce all the necessary CITES certifications to
prove that the materials they were using were perfectly legal.
Same thing that happened in the last raid, as I understand it. It's legal
to use Ivory for example as long as it was purchased from a
particular, approved source.

My problem with all this is that there are millions of private citizen
guitar owners who could have their expensive instruments confiscated because
they are not aware that they must prove that the materials used were legally
obtained and used. I have a custom built 12 string guitar made of
legally obtained Brazilian Rosewood ... but I don't have the certs to prove
it. Very few people do.

Some common sense is required.

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 20:43:48 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



wrote in message ...

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 20:00:14 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



"X ~ Man" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...471223268.html

This **** is getting old.

Do you think we should be able to rape the environment and pollute at
will? Have you seen how the rain forests are decimated and will never
return to what they were? What about poisons in your drinking water, are
you okay with that?

----------------------------------------------------------------

Harry, (assuming your *are* Harry)

The USA signed the International CITES agreement in 1973 that is designed
to
protect overharvested and therefore
endangered species ... most wood. Since then only the protected wood that
was harvested before 1969 or thereabouts
can be used. It's not just guitars. It's furniture, picture frames...
etc.

In 2008, the US Fish and Wildlife Service unilaterally decided to expand
the interpretation and enforcement to cover
virtually anything that was once alive. This is includes abalone inlays
in
guitars, more wood species (as they
deem fit) and, of course, anything else that was once alive. It's a
little
bit carried away because much that they are
"protecting" isn't any where near being endangered.

The amount of material used in guitars is minor compared to furniture and
other products. Problem with guitars
is that if you happen to travel out of the country with your beautiful and
favorite Martin D-35 that happens to have
some abalone in it's rosette or headstock inlay and then try to return ...
it may be confiscated and destroyed.

Protecting endangered species is one thing, but those with the badges are
getting a little carried away.

Eisboch

Perhaps, perhaps not. They had a history of violations, apparently. It
will likely be sorted out in court don't you think?

As to degree, imagine what happens to someone who smuggles in an
exotic bird. It's just one bird, but how many had to be caught for
that to happen.

-------------------------------------------------------

My bet is that Gibson will produce all the necessary CITES certifications to
prove that the materials they were using were perfectly legal.
Same thing that happened in the last raid, as I understand it. It's legal
to use Ivory for example as long as it was purchased from a
particular, approved source.

My problem with all this is that there are millions of private citizen
guitar owners who could have their expensive instruments confiscated because
they are not aware that they must prove that the materials used were legally
obtained and used. I have a custom built 12 string guitar made of
legally obtained Brazilian Rosewood ... but I don't have the certs to prove
it. Very few people do.

Some common sense is required.


Millions? That seems like an exaggeration. Are there really that many
Gibson guitars out there or even other makes that are really
expensive? How many travel outside the country? I doubt it's millions
or anything close.

I don't believe the 2009 court action has concluded. If they can prove
the material is legal, they should be able to recover damages.

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 20:00:14 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

Protecting endangered species is one thing, but those with the badges are
getting a little carried away.

==========

That's a classic "big government" problem with everyone trying to
justify the importance of their job, no matter how ridiculous the
outcome.

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 21:18:34 -0400, Wayne B
wrote:

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 20:00:14 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

Protecting endangered species is one thing, but those with the badges are
getting a little carried away.

==========

That's a classic "big government" problem with everyone trying to
justify the importance of their job, no matter how ridiculous the
outcome.

Basically, you're unwilling to look at the larger issue.

wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 21:18:34 -0400, Wayne B
wrote:

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 20:00:14 -0400, wrote:

Protecting endangered species is one thing, but those with the badges are
getting a little carried away.
==========

That's a classic "big government" problem with everyone trying to
justify the importance of their job, no matter how ridiculous the
outcome.
Basically, you're unwilling to look at the larger issue.
Idiots start sentences with "Basically"...

-HB

On 8/27/2011 8:00 PM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ~ Man" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...471223268.html


This **** is getting old.

Do you think we should be able to rape the environment and pollute at
will? Have you seen how the rain forests are decimated and will never
return to what they were? What about poisons in your drinking water, are
you okay with that?

----------------------------------------------------------------

Harry, (assuming your *are* Harry)

The USA signed the International CITES agreement in 1973 that is
designed to protect overharvested and therefore
endangered species ... most wood. Since then only the protected wood
that was harvested before 1969 or thereabouts
can be used. It's not just guitars. It's furniture, picture frames... etc.

In 2008, the US Fish and Wildlife Service unilaterally decided to expand
the interpretation and enforcement to cover
virtually anything that was once alive. This is includes abalone inlays
in guitars, more wood species (as they
deem fit) and, of course, anything else that was once alive. It's a
little bit carried away because much that they are
"protecting" isn't any where near being endangered.

The amount of material used in guitars is minor compared to furniture
and other products. Problem with guitars
is that if you happen to travel out of the country with your beautiful
and favorite Martin D-35 that happens to have
some abalone in it's rosette or headstock inlay and then try to return
... it may be confiscated and destroyed.

Protecting endangered species is one thing, but those with the badges
are getting a little carried away.

Eisboch

Turns out it's just a continuation of "elections have concequences"...

We now know that the reason they were raided is because Gibson
contributes to Repubs. Martin Guitars uses the exact same wood but
contributes to Dems and did not get raided.
http://landmarkreport.com/andrew/201...ublican-donor/
What did you expect from the Obamunists.

Politics as usual...

On 26/08/2011 7:48 AM, JustWait wrote:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...471223268.html


This **** is getting old.

Yep, hazards of too much government. So they screw over little
companies with wealth producing jobs that pay taxes.

And the fleabaggers wonder why the country is going broke....amazing.
--
If it is all Bush's fault, then how come Obama is doing much more of the
same and expecting different results?

On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 15:18:14 -0600, Canuck57
wrote:

On 26/08/2011 7:48 AM, JustWait wrote:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...471223268.html


This **** is getting old.

Yep, hazards of too much government. So they screw over little
companies with wealth producing jobs that pay taxes.

And the fleabaggers wonder why the country is going broke....amazing.

You know all about the hazards of stupidity.

On Aug 26, 8:48*am, JustWait wrote:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...57653052047122...

This **** is getting old.

this isn't the first time Gibson's been raided, Scott. Henry let them
do a material audit a few years ago and all was clean, now the fed is
at it again. .

Yeah, it's ridiculous.