Wilko kayaker posted:

snip
No matter how difficult the water was that his
sons are/were paddling, to state that *all* white water paddling is
extreme and dangerous is nonsense. That's what I'm having an issue with.
snip

Here are his words:

"Thanks to
a young man whose last day on the river was the beginning of something
of real value; a gift of greater safety to many he will never know.
Those who will come after him, down the twisting, thundering path of
the whitewater will be able to rely on a helmet that will provide far
greater protection in this extreme, dangerous, but rapidly growing
sport."

I did not take that to mean that *all* whitewater is extreme. Regardless, I
don't think the Turners know any other kind.

snip
From what
I've read in his message posted here and on the web, he doesn't impress
me with his knowledge about our sport.
snip

And why should he? He tells how he got into this and does not claim to be a big
water boater, or a marketing guru.

If he wants his product to have some effect on the safety of our sport,
it sure helps to make sure who his target audience is, and how he can
approach them and interest them in his product. IMNSHO this isn't the way.

Give the guy a little credit. I don't know him, he may not even be a paddler.
He makes one post here offering to sell what he believes to be a safe and
reliable paddling helmet (at cost of production), and he gets trashed and his
helmet gets roundly critisized (I'm not talking about you here Wilko). Quite
the reception for a guy who is trying to make a positive contribution to the
sport.

Ever seen Nurpu?

Dennis

On 8-Sep-2003, (Paddlec1) wrote:

[...]the twisting, thundering path of
the whitewater [...] this extreme, dangerous, but rapidly growing
sport."

I did not take that to mean that *all* whitewater is extreme.

I think that you're really stretching it to make such a claim. There's
nothing in the quoted text that limits the applicability of "extreme."

Regardless, I don't think the Turners know any other kind.

I guess they've never seen a calm river then?

I thought their post was over the top, and up to now have refrained
from getting too involved, but I've got to say that supporting their
hype is a bit much. I think Brian and Wilko are closer to the
truth than the supporters of this hyperbole have been.

Mike

Paddlec1 wrote:
Wilko posted:

"Thanks to
a young man whose last day on the river was the beginning of something
of real value; a gift of greater safety to many he will never know.
Those who will come after him, down the twisting, thundering path of
the whitewater will be able to rely on a helmet that will provide far
greater protection in this extreme, dangerous, but rapidly growing
sport."

I did not take that to mean that *all* whitewater is extreme. Regardless, I
don't think the Turners know any other kind.

Sorry Dennis, but I can only read from that they they consider all white
water paddling is extreme and dangerous. As you point out, they may not
know any other. That's a *very* small part of the community that they
aim at...

snip
From what
I've read in his message posted here and on the web, he doesn't impress
me with his knowledge about our sport.

snip

And why should he? He tells how he got into this and does not claim to be a big
water boater, or a marketing guru.

He claims to have come up with the "world's safest whitewater helmet",
without giving *any* arguments in to support his claim.

He just puts a couple of populistic terms in his article to sell it,
even though those terms aren't representative for our sport. If he
doesn't know what he's talking about with regard to whitewater paddling,
what customers (paddlers) he's aiming at, what does that say about his
product? Who says that he does know what he's talking about with regard
to that? I know other products that are sold as the world's best
whatever, but I wouldn't buy a "Tell&Sell" white water helmet either...

If he wants his product to have some effect on the safety of our sport,
it sure helps to make sure who his target audience is, and how he can
approach them and interest them in his product. IMNSHO this isn't the way.

Give the guy a little credit. I don't know him, he may not even be a paddler.
He makes one post here offering to sell what he believes to be a safe and
reliable paddling helmet (at cost of production), and he gets trashed and his
helmet gets roundly critisized (I'm not talking about you here Wilko). Quite
the reception for a guy who is trying to make a positive contribution to the
sport.

He comes onto this forum, trying to market a product to a mostly
knowledgable audience. His motives might be okay, but his advertising
tactic isn't, and he could at least not try to insult our intelligence
by coming up with unsubstantiated claims. If he wants to make a positive
contribution, he could at least have done some research into our sport
and realize what works and what doesn't.

Ever seen Nurpu?

Nope. Why?

--
Wilko van den Bergh
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote:

In article
Brian Nystrom wrote:

Go to his web site and read it for yourself.

No need.

I think that pretty much says it all, you prefer to remain ignorant of the subject
you're attempting to debate. If you're too lazy to read the material and find the
answers for yourself, don't expect me to spoon feed them to you.

--
Regards

Brian

Michael Daly posted:

snip
I thought their post was over the top, and up to now have refrained
from getting too involved, but I've got to say that supporting their
hype is a bit much.
snip

Go watch Nurpu.

Dennis

Wilko kayaker posted:

snip
He comes onto this forum, trying to market a product to a mostly
knowledgable audience. His motives might be okay, but his advertising
tactic isn't,

My understanding is that this is a nonproffit endevor. Who says he knows
anything about marketing? If he were doing this for money he could hire a slick
advertising firm.

and he could at least not try to insult our intelligence
by coming up with unsubstantiated claims.

Untill someone holds one of those helmets in their hands they don't know any
more about it than I do, which is zip. Who knows, could be a valid claim.

If he wants to make a positive
contribution, he could at least have done some research into our sport
and realize what works and what doesn't.

Research? He mentioned that his son Nick is assisting him. Go watch Nurpu.

Dennis

Paddlec1 wrote:
Wilko posted:

He comes onto this forum, trying to market a product to a mostly
knowledgable audience. His motives might be okay, but his advertising
tactic isn't,


My understanding is that this is a nonproffit endevor. Who says he knows
anything about marketing? If he were doing this for money he could hire a slick
advertising firm.

For the impact and effect his post has, it doesn't matter that he does
this for profit or not. The tone is doing his message more bad than
good, and I don't think that could be his intention.

and he could at least not try to insult our intelligence
by coming up with unsubstantiated claims.


Untill someone holds one of those helmets in their hands they don't know any
more about it than I do, which is zip. Who knows, could be a valid claim.

He makes a claim, it's up to him to substantiate it.

If he wants to make a positive
contribution, he could at least have done some research into our sport
and realize what works and what doesn't.

Research? He mentioned that his son Nick is assisting him. Go watch Nurpu.

I don't need to watch a video to judge from a message whether or not
someone has an accurate image of our sport. Depsite his son's
experience, it seems that the father still hangs onto an image that in
incongruous with reality. That does make me wonder about the validity of
his claims wrt white water paddling equipment...

--
Wilko van den Bergh
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

On 9-Sep-2003, (Paddlec1) wrote:

Go watch Nurpu.

Why? Does it "prove" that all white water is extreme? Does it
prove that their helmet is the safest in the world? Does it prove
anything?

Mike

in article gers.com,
Michael Daly at wrote on 9/9/03 8:21 AM:


Why? Does it "prove" that all white water is extreme? Does it
prove that their helmet is the safest in the world? Does it prove
anything?

Mike

Hi Mike,

I think Dennis suggested that this might give perspective on the Turners'
vision for a whitewater helmet, and the things they expect it to be able to
hold up to.

Ya know, the Turners are Dennis' friends. Folks might consider that a
little before denouncing their intentions.

And hey-- justifying Pro-tec helmets- huh?

Chuck

peteg wrote:

While I sympathize with the parents on their son's death, I have to question
why a paddler with this much experience and paddling very hard runs like the
ones mentioned above (by the way Jacobs Ladder isn't 5++) was wearing a
Protec helmet. Anyone with any experience should know that there are other
helmets on the market which are more suitable for expert kayaking...

Which helmets are these?

Aside from Mike Fentress design with facemask, now unavailable,
I haven't seen any kayaking helmets that impress me a whole lot.
Many of them look like retro Hell's Angel's motorcycling helmets
with limited coverage.