I'm not gonna order anything I can't try first. I got a long haid;
round-haid helmets don't fit me worth a damn...and, frankly, IME
fit's a lot more important than all them fancy materials.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Gil Turner wrote:

shamless self-promotion snipped

This is apparently nothing but one man's crusade against Pro-Tec. I'm
sorry his son was killed, but the fact that he chose a helmet that didn't
fit his head properly doesn't make the product defective. I have one that
stays on and in place just fine. As Mary points out, people's heads are
shaped differently and no single helmet is going to fit everyone
perfectly. Apparently, the two college kids who designed this new helmet
didn't reseach that aspect very thoroughly. Billing this unavailable
product as the "World's Safest Whitewater Helmet" is a bad joke, bordering
on disingenuous. The psuedo-official sounding business name "Whitewater
Research & Safety Institute, Inc." and the BS about issuing a "Voluntary
Recall Demand" is even more misleading.

If the product comes to market and it provides good protection for the
people it fits, so much the better. However, this marketing strategy isn't
fooling anyone and Mr. Turner would do well to consider a different
approach.

I truly hope Mr. Turner isn't going to become the Tim Ingram of helmets.

--
Regards

Brian Nystrom
President, CEO and Grand Pubah
The Institute for Exposing Personal Vendettas Disguised as Official
Agencies

Gil Turner wrote:
Those who will come after him, down the twisting, thundering path of
the whitewater will be able to rely on a helmet that will provide far
greater protection in this extreme, dangerous, but rapidly growing
sport.

I'm sorry to hear about your son's death. That's an interesting motive
for designing a safer white water helmet, one that I can only applaud.
However, I do have some critical notes with this article...

I'm not at all impresssed by claims to be the world's best or safest,
but I am interested to hear how this claim is substantiated. Has this
helmet been compared to other purpose designed white water helmets in
comparatice tests?

I also find several lines in this article misleading or just plainly
wrong. For example, there were at that time (1998) and have been since
several purpose designed white water helmets on the market, from a
couple of brands all over the world. Granted, some are offering better
protection than others, but that's not what the article seems to imply.

On top of that I find the general tone of the article annoying. What
exactly is so extreme and dangerous about this sport?

There are already good products out on the market to protect yourself
against blows to the head and body, from a number of companies. That
said, there will always be a certain risk involved with paddling
whitewater (or any water for that matter).

--
Wilko van den Bergh
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Brian Nystrom posted:

snip
this marketing strategy isn't
fooling anyone and Mr. Turner would do well to consider a different
approach.

I truly hope Mr. Turner isn't going to become the Tim Ingram of helmets.

--
Regards

Brian Nystrom
President, CEO and Grand Pubah
The Institute for Exposing Personal Vendettas Disguised as Official
Agencies

This may or may not be the worlds safest whitewater helmet, but any helmet that
stays in place (which Protec does not), provides protection from impact (which
Protec does not), and is designed for whitewater (which Protec is not) is
welcome in the paddling community.

Mr. Nystrom, I am totally disgusted by your jumping in to troll a thread of
this kind. If you had a shred of self respect you would restrain yourself this
one time. You would do well to seek professional help for your low self esteem.

Get some therapy.

Dennis

Hi Brian,

I knew the group that was paddling with Lucas, and was really saddened to
hear about his death five years ago. He died in a rapid that is one of the
biggest 'mainstream' Class Vs in the world, and one that I have always
carried.

It's unfortunate that you're insulting his dad. I've talked in the past
about how whitewater helmets need to be improved, but though I do possess
the technical ability to do such a project, I haven't. I'm glad to see Gil
doing it. Looks to me from the pictures on the website that he's addressed
major areas of concern that I have-- notably full protection for the base of
the brain that's lacking on almost all of the current crop.

Chuck

http://www.wildcountry.info

in article , Brian Nystrom at
wrote on 9/2/03 4:30 AM:

This is apparently nothing but one man's crusade against Pro-Tec. I'm
sorry his son was killed, but the fact that he chose a helmet that didn't
fit his head properly doesn't make the product defective. I have one that
stays on and in place just fine. As Mary points out, people's heads are
shaped differently and no single helmet is going to fit everyone
perfectly. Apparently, the two college kids who designed this new helmet
didn't reseach that aspect very thoroughly. Billing this unavailable
product as the "World's Safest Whitewater Helmet" is a bad joke, bordering
on disingenuous. The psuedo-official sounding business name "Whitewater
Research & Safety Institute, Inc." and the BS about issuing a "Voluntary
Recall Demand" is even more misleading.

If the product comes to market and it provides good protection for the
people it fits, so much the better. However, this marketing strategy isn't
fooling anyone and Mr. Turner would do well to consider a different
approach.

I truly hope Mr. Turner isn't going to become the Tim Ingram of helmets.

Paddlec1 wrote:

Brian Nystrom posted:

snip
this marketing strategy isn't
fooling anyone and Mr. Turner would do well to consider a different
approach.

I truly hope Mr. Turner isn't going to become the Tim Ingram of helmets.

--
Regards

Brian Nystrom
President, CEO and Grand Pubah
The Institute for Exposing Personal Vendettas Disguised as Official
Agencies

This may or may not be the worlds safest whitewater helmet, but any helmet that
stays in place (which Protec does not),

Nonsense. It may not fit your head, but it fits mine fine and apparently does so
for others here, too.

provides protection from impact (which
Protec does not),

More nonsense. It may not be the most protective helmet on the market, but mine has
done the job for many years in several different activities (cycling, climbing,
paddling). While it carries a fair number of external scars, the shell is intact
and the padding is still resilient.

and is designed for whitewater (which Protec is not)

Well, you're three for three with the nonsense. The fact that the basic Protec
helmet design is adaptable to many uses is a strength, not a vice.


is welcome in the paddling community.

Sure and I said as much.

Mr. Nystrom, I am totally disgusted by your jumping in to troll a thread of
this kind.

Troll nothing. I call it as I see it and this is a pretty clear call. I truly hope
that this turns out to be a useful product, but the marketing approach they've
taken is blatantly misleading. If you can't see this, then order one and see what
happens.

whiney crap snipped

Get a grip.

--
Regards

Brian

The best helmet would be one with a pair of sponsons....


Ed

(ok, ok... I know. I just couldn't resist. grin )

Charles Pezeshki wrote:

Hi Brian,

I knew the group that was paddling with Lucas, and was really saddened to
hear about his death five years ago. He died in a rapid that is one of the
biggest 'mainstream' Class Vs in the world, and one that I have always
carried.

It's unfortunate that you're insulting his dad.

I'm not insulting anyone. For that matter, I'm not questioning his motives,
either. What I am questioning is his approach. His words clearly express a
personal vendetta against Protec. I can't say I fully understand his grief or
claim that I would feel any differently were I in his position. However, I
strongly object to his misleading claim of the "Worlds Safest Whitewater Helmet"
and the attempt to pass off a business as some form of "official" safety agency.

I've talked in the past
about how whitewater helmets need to be improved, but though I do possess
the technical ability to do such a project, I haven't. I'm glad to see Gil
doing it.

If his company ultimately produces a good product, I'm all for it. However, a
good product deserves to be marketed honestly on it's merits, not by bitter
attacks on a competing product. This kind of approach will ultimately backfire
and could prevent his product from saving a life. I'm sure that's not Mr.
Turner's intent.

Looks to me from the pictures on the website that he's addressed
major areas of concern that I have-- notably full protection for the base of
the brain that's lacking on almost all of the current crop.

Interesting. Research on helmets for other applications has shown that close
fitting padding at the lower rear of a helmet causes an increase in broken necks
when impacts that cause head rotation occur (ie., frontal impacts or glancing
impacts to the top of the helmet...sound familiar?). That's why helmets for
other applications are not made that way. A closer fit does not necessarily make
a helmet safer. If the helmet itself causes or exacerbates injury, the users
could be at greater risk than they would be with a design that seems less
protective, but won't contribute to injuries.

I really have to question whether designing a whitewater helmet that may
actually make it to market is a suitable project for a couple of college kids.
I'm getting the impression that they just haven't done all the necessary
research. This sounds like a project that should be taken up with the assistance
of Snell Labs and other organizations which have researched head injuries
in-depth. Again, I'm not questioning their motivation, it just seems like they
may have overlooked some critical details.

--
Regards

Brian

ospam (Larry Cable) writes:

(Paddlec1)

Typed in Message-ID:

This may or may not be the worlds safest whitewater helmet, but any helmet
that
stays in place (which Protec does not), provides protection from impact
(which
Protec does not), and is designed for whitewater (which Protec is not) is
welcome in the paddling

community.



I have to agree with Brian on this one. While I'm not of the opinion that
Protec is the ultimate in head protection, it works OK and has protected many a
head from injury, including mine. Mine does fit and it has provided impact
protection. Could it be better? Yes, of course it could.

Well, Protec's been through a few changes. Current Protec helmets
have a two-point strap attachment, but a few years back, that wasn't
so. Anecdotally, it seems the change in the strap has made a real
difference in how well the helmet stays in place -- and there are
still a lot of one-strap Protecs out there.


--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Dave Manby wrote:

OK I tried to avoid this one!

Thanks for jumping in; your insight is appreciated.

I am for my sins the chair of the BCU safety committee and several years
ago the committee sent all the helmet on the market to the road research
testing lab at Birmingham Uni. OK they usually test motor bike helmets.
The guy from the research department came and presented his findings.

The Protec helmet was in those days the best of a pretty poor bunch was
his summary. In fact he refused to test one as they reckoned the lack of
resistance would damage their machine!

That's not terribly surprising, considering what they're used to testing. I guess
it comes down to what level of protection one expects. If you want motorcycle level
protection, you'll have to deal with the same weight and bulk. Realistically, what
paddling helmets primarily protect against are cuts, abrasions and contusions. The
shock absoption may also reduce concussions. However, they're not going to save
someone from a severe impact. That's another gripe I have about Mr. Turner's
claims; he presents no evidence that his son's accident was survivable had he been
wearing a helmet that protected him better. It seems that a big assumption is being
made.

Couple of interesting points he made was the very real cocoon effect
that wearing a helmet has. You are likely to try and paddle harder /
drive faster because of this effect the helmet has.

It seems that it's a "chicken or the egg" argument. Helmets are bought for
protection during activities where head injury is possible. Would we engage in the
activity without a helmet?

I use mine primarily for playing in surf and rocks. All I expect of it is to keep
me from bleeding and perhaps save me a lump on the head if I whack a rock
inadvertently. However, with the forces involved with moving water, I know that
it's not going to save my life if I do something stupid or get caught off-guard.

And Brian if your
helmet bears the scars of previous battles with rocks you should throw
it away and buy a new one as it WILL not be as strong as it was. (No
matter what it is made of)

I appreciate your concern, but the damage is purely superficial. I've never taken
any serious whacks with on the helmet. It's a multi impact helmet, anyway.

If you crash your motor bike your helmet is
toast but you may well not be toast because of it!

That's the idea. Motorcycle helmets (and cycling helmets) are sacrificial items.
One impact and the helmet is destroyed, but it has done it's job. In the trash it
goes. This provides a relatively high level of protection for a given size and
weight, but is it practical/acceptable for a sport where multiple impacts can
reasonably be expected? I guess that would come down to a personal choice.

--
Regards

Brian