Brian Nystrom writ, in part:

I really have to question whether designing a whitewater helmet that
may actually make it to market is a suitable project for a couple of
college kids.
I'm getting the impression that they just haven't done all the necessary
research. This sounds like a project that should be taken up with the
assistance of Snell Labs and other organizations which have
researched head injuries in-depth. Again, I'm not questioning their
motivation, it just seems like they
may have overlooked some critical details.

Brian, I believe you've hit the nail on the helmet.

That was kinda what I thought when I saw their video a year or two ago. The
video showed two grinning college kids and one test (taking a fire hose to a
mounted helmet)...and, if memory serves, that was about it.

Generally, the "World's Best" of a product is the result of a substantial
effort. It can be a team of researchers with bunches of ideas, or just one with
an antiparadigmatic insight. Butt under any circumstances, it would involve
significant time, with extensive testing of all competitors' products under a
variety of conditions. It's impossible--imPOSSible!!--to do that with two
college kids, one semester, and a $50,000-dollar grant.

If they were claiming "World's Best Handpaddles," I'd ignore it, because who
cares? But this is a critical piece of safety equipment. Under these
circumstances, with all due respect and sympathy for Mr. Turner's grief and his
subsequent efforts, I agree with you that his approach is irresponsibly
misguided.

Riviera Ratt, PITA
STILL Swimless in the 3rd Millennium! (almost)
Click of the Week updated 8/12/03
For A Good Time, call http://www.americanwhitewater.org
and http://members.aol.com/rivieraratt/ratthole.html

Amen to that.

Phat Ratty Ratt wrote:

Brian Nystrom writ, in part:

I really have to question whether designing a whitewater helmet that
may actually make it to market is a suitable project for a couple of
college kids.
I'm getting the impression that they just haven't done all the necessary
research. This sounds like a project that should be taken up with the
assistance of Snell Labs and other organizations which have
researched head injuries in-depth. Again, I'm not questioning their
motivation, it just seems like they
may have overlooked some critical details.

Brian, I believe you've hit the nail on the helmet.

That was kinda what I thought when I saw their video a year or two ago. The
video showed two grinning college kids and one test (taking a fire hose to a
mounted helmet)...and, if memory serves, that was about it.

Generally, the "World's Best" of a product is the result of a substantial
effort. It can be a team of researchers with bunches of ideas, or just one with
an antiparadigmatic insight. Butt under any circumstances, it would involve
significant time, with extensive testing of all competitors' products under a
variety of conditions. It's impossible--imPOSSible!!--to do that with two
college kids, one semester, and a $50,000-dollar grant.

If they were claiming "World's Best Handpaddles," I'd ignore it, because who
cares? But this is a critical piece of safety equipment. Under these
circumstances, with all due respect and sympathy for Mr. Turner's grief and his
subsequent efforts, I agree with you that his approach is irresponsibly
misguided.

Riviera Ratt, PITA
STILL Swimless in the 3rd Millennium! (almost)
Click of the Week updated 8/12/03
For A Good Time, call http://www.americanwhitewater.org
and http://members.aol.com/rivieraratt/ratthole.html

--
Regards

Brian

In article
Brian Nystrom wrote:



Gil Turner wrote:

[quoted text muted]
shamless self-promotion snipped

This is apparently nothing but one man's crusade against Pro-Tec.

I didn't see Pro-Tec mentioned. How could it be a "crusade"
agasint them, if they aren't mentioned?

I'm
sorry his son was killed, but the fact that he chose a helmet that didn't
fit his head properly doesn't make the product defective.

I missed the analysis and evaluation that supports your
statement that it didn't fit his head properly. Do you have
support for the cause of the helmet movement being a fit issue?

I have one that
stays on and in place just fine. As Mary points out, people's heads are
shaped differently and no single helmet is going to fit everyone
perfectly.

Yes, helmets come in various sizes for this reason and are
generally adjustable in the straps and even internally.

Apparently, the two college kids who designed this new helmet
didn't reseach that aspect very thoroughly.

That may be apparent to you, but you provide no support for that
accusation either. Would you like the helmet better if the
designers were 42 years old? Is Johns Hopkins University not up
to your standards for such academic work?

Billing this unavailable
product as the "World's Safest Whitewater Helmet" is a bad joke, bordering
on disingenuous. The psuedo-official sounding business name "Whitewater
Research & Safety Institute, Inc." and the BS about issuing a "Voluntary
Recall Demand" is even more misleading.

How did it mislead you?


If the product comes to market and it provides good protection for the
people it fits, so much the better. However, this marketing strategy isn't
fooling anyone and Mr. Turner would do well to consider a different
approach.

Which marketing strategy would that be? How would you advise
them to market the helmet?

I truly hope Mr. Turner isn't going to become the Tim Ingram of helmets.

But we have you to save us from disingenuous rants, don't we?


--
Regards

Brian Nystrom
President, CEO and Grand Pubah
The Institute for Exposing Personal Vendettas Disguised as Official
Agencies

Go to his web site and read it for yourself. While you're at it, read the rest
of the thread. Next time you "come late to the party" in a thread, you might
want to try this before you make youself look foolish by asking questions that
have aready been answered.

lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote:

a bunch of previously answered questions, snipped

--
Regards

Brian

In article
Brian Nystrom wrote:

Go to his web site and read it for yourself.

No need.

While you're at it, read the rest
of the thread. Next time you "come late to the party" in a thread, you might
want to try this before you make youself look foolish by asking questions that
have aready been answered.

Possibly, you meant to say, "next time you come late to the
jihad". Your tone conveys signs that you are quite overwrought
about how someone else chooses his words, yet in your post on
this matter you lack the delicacy you seem to demand of others.
You can head for the river and settle down a bit.


a bunch of previously answered questions, snipped

I'll unsnip here and put them back.

This is apparently nothing but one man's crusade against Pro-Tec.

I didn't see Pro-Tec mentioned. How could it be a "crusade"
agasint them, if they aren't mentioned?

I'm
sorry his son was killed, but the fact that he chose a helmet that didn't
fit his head properly doesn't make the product defective.

I missed the analysis and evaluation that supports your
statement that it didn't fit his head properly. Do you have
support for the cause of the helmet movement being a fit issue?

I have one that
stays on and in place just fine. As Mary points out, people's heads are
shaped differently and no single helmet is going to fit everyone
perfectly.

Yes, helmets come in various sizes for this reason and are
generally adjustable in the straps and even internally.

Apparently, the two college kids who designed this new helmet
didn't reseach that aspect very thoroughly.

That may be apparent to you, but you provide no support for that
accusation either. Would you like the helmet better if the
designers were 42 years old? Is Johns Hopkins University not up
to your standards for such academic work?

Billing this unavailable
product as the "World's Safest Whitewater Helmet" is a bad joke, bordering
on disingenuous. The psuedo-official sounding business name "Whitewater
Research & Safety Institute, Inc." and the BS about issuing a "Voluntary
Recall Demand" is even more misleading.

How did it mislead you?


If the product comes to market and it provides good protection for the
people it fits, so much the better. However, this marketing strategy isn't
fooling anyone and Mr. Turner would do well to consider a different
approach.

Which marketing strategy would that be? How would you advise
them to market the helmet?

I truly hope Mr. Turner isn't going to become the Tim Ingram of helmets.

But we have you to save us from disingenuous rants, don't we?




--
Regards

Brian

Wilko kayaker posted:

snip
What
exactly is so extreme and dangerous about this sport?
snip

Ever heard of Big Timber Creek (720 per mile gradiant)? Mesa Falls? The Turners
have.

Dennis

Wilko kayaker posted:

snipIt's one thing to come up with good paddling gear that can
make the risk of injury less, it's another altogether to sensationalize
a sport just to make your point.
snip

All perspective. What would you call it if one of your son's lost his life
paddling 5++ Jacobs Ladder on the Payette (which by the way, he had paddled
many times previously)? What would you call it if your other son and his
friends were traveling the globe making first decents and filming it?

Ever heard of Teton Gravity Research?

Dennis

"Paddlec1" wrote in message
...
All perspective. What would you call it if one of your son's lost his life
paddling 5++ Jacobs Ladder on the Payette (which by the way, he had
paddled
many times previously)? What would you call it if your other son and his
friends were traveling the globe making first decents and filming it?

While I sympathize with the parents on their son's death, I have to question
why a paddler with this much experience and paddling very hard runs like the
ones mentioned above (by the way Jacobs Ladder isn't 5++) was wearing a
Protec helmet. Anyone with any experience should know that there are other
helmets on the market which are more suitable for expert kayaking. This is
not to say that a Protec helmet isn't just fine for Class 3-4. Before making
a choice to paddle expert runs boaters should educate themselves on the pros
and cons of the gear they choose to wear.

pete

Paddlec1 wrote:

Wilko posted:

It's one thing to come up with good paddling gear that can
make the risk of injury less, it's another altogether to sensationalize
a sport just to make your point.

snip

All perspective. What would you call it if one of your son's lost his life
paddling 5++ Jacobs Ladder on the Payette (which by the way, he had paddled
many times previously)? What would you call it if your other son and his
friends were traveling the globe making first decents and filming it?

With all due respect for the man's loss Dennis, that message was worded
in a questionable way. No matter how difficult the water was that his
sons are/were paddling, to state that *all* white water paddling is
extreme and dangerous is nonsense. That's what I'm having an issue with.

Claiming things like the "worlds best" and so on is one thing, but I
would expect that someone who makes such claims at least does enough
research into the sport to know what they're talking about. From what
I've read in his message posted here and on the web, he doesn't impress
me with his knowledge about our sport.

If he wants his product to have some effect on the safety of our sport,
it sure helps to make sure who his target audience is, and how he can
approach them and interest them in his product. IMNSHO this isn't the way.

--
Wilko van den Bergh
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

peteg wrote:

snip
Protec helmet. Anyone with any experience should know that there are other
helmets on the market which are more suitable for expert kayaking.
snip

Are and were, two vastly different words. Yeah, just as today, there were
better helmets available than the protec, but not many and not here.

snip
boaters should educate themselves on the pros
and cons of the gear they choose to wear.

pete

Agreed.

Dennis