"Michael Daly" ) writes:
On 2-Sep-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote:

as it happens I know as much about sponson on kayaks as anyone else
who has posted in this thread,

You know how much I know about sponsons? Really? When did you ever go
paddling with me when I was checking out a kayak with sponsons?

Yes, of course I know you know nothing sponsons, because if you did know
anything about sponsons it would have been obvious in what you've written in
this long rambling discussion.


You've spent a few minutes of time in kayaks in your whole life! How much of
that with sponsons? Get off yor high horse!

I claim experince in a range of small boats makes a person capable of
making accurate comparisons after 2-3 hours investigating a number of
different kayak models. You experience may differ and you have no way of
knowing what someone else tell about kayaks after trying a number of them.
As I wrote earlier, you are writing from compatitively limited experience,
It shows in what you contribute to the discussion. You also deomstrate a
very competitive obsessive temperment, it that's any use to you.


As far as I can tell I am THE ONLY person posting in
this thread who has actually used sponsons.

Probably because you haven't been paying attention to the others in these
threads. You are not the only one and your experience with kayaks is trivial.

and I've just as much experience re-entering kayaks. my one re-entry
on a demo boat being more than most posting in this thread have done.

One re-entry makes you an expert?

"Expert" is not a word I would use for myself, and certainly not for you
based on what you've written to date.

That's your problem, willy-boy, you
think you're an expert when you actually know nothing at all. Some of us
practice re-entry techniques _frequently_ and even pay for pool time in the
winter just to practice. I've practiced _many_ different techniques for
re-entry, solo and assisted. That's why I _know_ you're full of ****.

I'd like to make two observations. First, you complained that shoving a
boat cushion under my hips to raise them and allow me to get them over the
gunwale of my boat was inadvisable because the cushion might float away.
yet you accept a kayka re-entry technique which depends on using a paddle
float without question.

No, that was Mary.

You obviously don't know paddle float re-entry. In a standard paddle float re-entry,
the paddle float is _attached_ to the paddle and the paddle to the kayak, so it isn't
going to float away.

Look up Sea Seats on the web. There are products sold for kayakers that do
exactly what your seat cushion does, except that it's designed for rescue in rough
conditions. I know kayakers who use them.

I'd advise kayakers who are serious about re-entry
to forget about re-entry aids and practice unaided re-entry until they can
do it under any conditions with their eyes closed and one hand tied behind
their back. That should meet your requirements. It meets mine.

Which precludes the use of sponsons.

No it does not. Sponsons, for those who have been reading this thread with
any understanding at all, are intended to prevent capsize and subsequent
re-entry. They are not a re-entry aid.


This is exactly what some of us have been saying for a while. Too bad you don't
pay attention. Yes I can re-enter a kayak and roll up with one hand tied behind my
back. In fact I know several rolls that allow me to do that (butterfly roll, armpit roll,
window shade roll, storm roll variation etc.)

Only a few fanatics would paddle in rough conditions and then only
occasionally unless they have become obsessed with rough weather conditons
and distain paddling in normal conditions.

Well this means a lot of us will stay home. The reason you want to paddle in
rough conditions is because they happen a lot. Squalls on the Great Lakes
come up fast - hell, even Lac des Chenes off Brittania Bay gets some good
summer squalls.

Yes but anyone with any boating experience can see themn comming from far
enougth away to get to shore. At one of the evening demos I attended, in
fact the one when I tried re-entering a kayak, the sales rep was concered
about some thunder and lightning. She was reluctant to let me go out until
I pointe out to her that the clouds were moving upriver, the cold front
had passed, and the light and noise show was moving away, not toward us.
Reading winds and weather patterns is basic to sailing. Its not an option
for sailing like it is for paddling.

Any paddler that spends their paddling time in calm water
assuming that all will be well is setting themselves up for a disaster.
Every paddler should be comfortable in rough conditions. Besides, that's
when paddling gets to be fun. And when my hard chine kayak really behaves
well.

Yep, and you are writing according to personal prefernce, not mine which
I see as more wide ranging, or that of the general paddling public.
"Limited" is the word I used to describe your outlook and experience.


If you spend most of your time in good boating
conditions then that's when you will fall out of your kayak most often,
when you least expect it.

Years of sea kayaking under all conditions on the Great Lakes and oceans
and no upsets unless I wanted to. Kayaks are _not_ that unstable. Your
comments are based on ignorance.

Are you claiming capsize and re-entry is a non-issue? Or just a non-issue
yourself?


Its a human thing, not a weather thing. I seldom
go boating in rough weather and I've fallen out of boats more than I care
to admit.

You also brag about never taking lessons. Maybe if you learned something
about boating, you'd fall out less. In many years of sailing, canoeing and
kayaking, I've suffered no upsets in calm conditions. In fact the only upsets
have been canoeing and kayaking in WW.

If you were to paddle onto a submerged log or other debris you
too could not roll the boat. You'd just fall out.

I've paddled onto submerged and semi-submerged stuff (logs, rocks, ice etc)
many times and never tipped. Falling out of kayaks is something that rarely
happens.

It would be straightforward to roll up under these conditions but you'd have to
scull or brace in the upright condition until you gain full control. I've actually
practiced these things. You, on the other hand, are full of ****.

And as likely as not if
startled, eg dive bombed by a seagull, the paddler would throw the paddle
in the air landing out of reach and unavailable to assist in a re-entry.

If birds startle you that much, stay home. Most of us don't let go
of the paddle - it's trained into us. Besides, smart paddlers carry
spares.

Nope, I'd work on that unassisted re-entry and not rely on the paddle. Now
sponsons, they stay with the boat. I'd invest my safety dollar in a good
set of sponsons and maybe go a bit slower from an occasional bit of drag
on wavetops.

This is _not_ an unassisted re-entry. This is an assisted re-entry. Sponsons
are used to assist paddlers back into the kayak.

What people really object to but won't admit is that sponsons
don't make their sleek colourful boats look sexy. Sponsons just don't fit
their self image as kayakers. Nothing to do with performance or safety.
Everything to do with appearances. Bah.

You continue to ignore what folks have been saying about sponsons.

1) they don't work as well as some people claim. Other techniques are just as
effective.

2) Sponsons are slower to deploy than paddle floats or other techniques.

3) Excess time in the water due to sponsons means greater threat of
hypothermia. Paddlers who actually know what they're talking about
rate rescue techniques with time-in-water as a critical criteria.

4) Sponsons provide limited stability improvements compared to claims.

5) Increasing the stability of a boat in rough conditions _increases_ the likelyhood
of upset. Stability on flat water is instability on waves.

6) If broached on a breaking wave, sponsons _greatly_ increase the likelyhood
of capsize. A narrow kayak can be edged into the wave and be more stable
with a proper brace.

7) Sponsons, if deployed, significantly increase drag. Kayaks don't have enough
freeboard to keep them above water.

8) Sponsons give people a false sense of security, leading them into conditions
where they don't belong. Training and practice, not gear, is what is important.

Agressivness like yours is what leads paddlers into coniditions where they
don't belong, not safety mindedness.


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