"Michael Daly" ) writes:
On 28-Aug-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote:

there's *nothing* I haven't tried in 6 foot or higher waves. what millponds
do you paddle in? 6 foot waves are for children. we get wakes on the canal
higher than that.

Still bull****ting, huh willy?

what it says in the subject line

Not to mention the wonderful bucket seat in the Ellesmere.


a small concession to comfort. I did like the lower back support on some of
the kayaks I tried. few had any above the hips.

Long, narrow hulls don't roll in waves the way wide stable kayaks do. That's
why deployed sponsons are a bad idea in rough conditions. Not rolling means
more stability in rough conditions.

hull stability comes from both length and beam. a long fast boat can be
just as stable as a short beamy boat. older sailboats were long and narrow
but heavy. moderns sailboats are light and beamy. the apddling and sailing
boat I built with the sponsons on it is both narrow and short. no sponons,
no renetry.


Round bottom hulls have _no_ initial stability. If the shape doesn't change with
angle of heel, there is no position that is more stable. This makes for a very
tippy kayak = not safe.

round bottom boats with sponsons above the waterline have both superior
wave riding and plenty of reserve bouyancy. If you visit my website but
leave off the "/top.htm" you get an indexed list of all the files some of
which are in any HTML references. Scroll down to files bluecanuxx.yyy to
see text and photos describing a boat I made by sawing completely round 55
gal blue plastic barrels in half and mounting sponsons on the gunwales and
read about the stability tests.


Hard chined kayaks typically have excellent secondary stability and are rock
solid in the roughest conditions. That is what the eastern Canadian and
Greenland Inuit used and they could have made their kayaks any way they wanted.

you've fallen into the "traditional" trap. there's no indication they even
imagined round bottom boats. let alone tried and descarded them. with
little in the way of framing material to work with it was materials which
shaped the boat as is the case with all native craft. I wasn't there
either but I still have the better argument.

Waves catch on chines before they catch on sponsons but how much
difference that makes to very light displacement hulls like kayak I don't
know. However, in longer kayaks the chines are also longer and more
subject to wave action.

Waves break when the length is 7 times the height. If the wave crests
match the length of a 20 ft kayak they'll break at 3 ft approx. If the
wave is cresting at one end of a 20 ft kayak and the wave trough is at the
other end that's a 40 foot wave and it will break at 6 ft in height
approx. In either case you should have got off the water before then.

The worst boating situation is waves coming from more than one direction.
You can fall right into a hole in the water. It has happened to me
somewhat artificially in the 7.5 ft boat I have the sponsons on, caught
between 2 ft powerboat wakes on a canal. The sides on the boat are 1 ft
with a 4" draft leaving 9" of freeboard. The beam is 24" like a kayak
(length 7.5 ft as mentioned). Boat didn't ship a drop. The boat sails in
quite stong winds for its size in smaller waves. The key is to lower body
weight (centre of gravity) which a kayak paddler cannot do sitting upright
in a tiny cockpit. I can't see a kayak paddler riding out a storm sitting
bolt upright in a narrow boat without sponsons unless he or she is really
into rolling which I imagine would be exhausing. Better, I think to have a
large cockpit you can lie down in. There have been kayaks, although
homemade by boat desingers and not mass produced, in which one could
recline, even sleep in overnight as Herreshoff did on his.


V-bottoms track well with less weathercocking than round bottoms and are decently
stable if the V is not to sharp. That means less fatigue and hence, more safety.

fatigue = safety in boat design? that's a new argument. you rest
when you get tired. that's safety no matter what boat you're in. I'm not
sure about the V-bottom speed argument as round bottoms have least wetted
surface per pound of displacement. That's just theory and I haven't any
tank tests or computer simulations to support it.

Stop trying to argue with kayakers about kayaks when you don't know anything
about them.

Stop trying to portray necessarily limited and subjective personal
impression as fact. You seem to be arguing from a sea kayaking perspective
using production boats (which are marketed on appearance as much as
anything else).

What's your experince with sponsons? I've used them with good results on
two boats I've desinged and built for myself.

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John Fereira ) writes:

I went out on our local lake last year with a couple of friends on a day
when there were some strong winds coming down the 40 mile long lake from the
north. There were frequent 2-3' breaking waves. All three of us are
experienced in and have practiced several different reentry techniques. We
paddled about a mile out and decided to practice some re-entries. First we
tried the "cowboy" rescue as described above. Even though my Outer Island
is narrow (21"), has a very low rear deck, and a cockpit large enough to sit
in before putting in my legs, I was unable to sucessfully get back in using
a cowboy rescue after four attempts.

was the problem, the narrow beam and cockpit? you have to push up right
quick because the hull is least stable when you're sitting upright.
perhaps its not a good technique for some people on those very narrow
boats. I don't think I'd need to use a paddle brace but that's personal.

After the fourth time capsizing before
*almost* getting back into the cockpit, I grabbed my paddle float and was
back in the cockpit in less than 30 seconds. Only one of the three of us
managed to reenter his kayak and stay upright using a cowboy rescue that
day. On flatter water all of us have sucessfully used a cowboy rescue to
reenter many, many times. Usually, however, if we have capsized we just
roll up or use and assisted eskimo rescue off a paddling partners bow.
That's the way the easter Canadians, Greenlanders, Aluets, and Innuit have
been doing it for generations.

I guess you've never had any alligator wresting experience, there, sonny.
I don't see you listed with the WRWF (World Reptile Wrestling Federation).
"Cowboy"? What "cowboy"" What do dry dirty dusty cowboys know about
getting back into boats they've fallen out of? Ever done any log rolling?

I've never paddled around Iceland, and God only knows why anybody would
want to. I'll bet even teh native don't do it any more, unless maybe
offered large sums of money by tourists. Climbing in over the rear deck
worked for me. It wasn't even a challenge. Maybe its all the swimming and
water polo and getting in and out of the pool. I can understand why you'd
want to go in a group of like-minded people (???) where you paddle but I'm
strictly a solo paddler on the lakes and rivers of Ontario where waves and
cold water are not unkown. In one of my less rational moments I did go out
in a parka in December to see what it was like. I rely on myself to
re-enter any boat I might fall out of. I don't know what experinece you've
had with sponsons but I've found them usefull on two narrow boats, both of
which had a 24" beam.

Sponsons are used to avoid re-entry.

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On 31-Aug-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote:

Not to mention the wonderful bucket seat in the Ellesmere.

a small concession to comfort. I did like the lower back support on some of
the kayaks I tried. few had any above the hips.

Major concession. Providing full support to the butt and upper thighs means
_no_ numb legs or circulation issues.

Real kayakers don't want a high back support. If the back support comes above the
hips, it interferes with paddling technique. A low back support is only to keep you
from sliding backwards. Proper technique includes not resting back on your
back support, but sitting upright or leaned slightly forward.

Given that you've never learned how to paddle a kayak properly , you wouldn't know
that.

but heavy. moderns sailboats are light and beamy. the apddling and sailing
boat I built with the sponsons on it is both narrow and short. no sponons,
no renetry.

You complain about kayaks and justify your nonsense because of the
sailboat you built. Get a clue willy!

Round bottom hulls have _no_ initial stability. If the shape doesn't change with
angle of heel, there is no position that is more stable. This makes for a very
tippy kayak = not safe.

round bottom boats with sponsons above the waterline have both superior
wave riding and plenty of reserve bouyancy.

They'll only be above the water line if there are no waves - which is when they
are least useful. They'll give you lots of drag. If you want to paddle a tub, fine -
but don't dictate what kayakers are supposed to use because of your nonsense.
A hull with permanent sponsons is not a round hull - it is a hull with sponsons.
Not the same thing at all.

Hard chined kayaks typically have excellent secondary stability and are rock
solid in the roughest conditions. That is what the eastern Canadian and
Greenland Inuit used and they could have made their kayaks any way they wanted.

you've fallen into the "traditional" trap. there's no indication they even
imagined round bottom boats. let alone tried and descarded them. with
little in the way of framing material to work with it was materials which
shaped the boat as is the case with all native craft. I wasn't there
either but I still have the better argument.

Then kindly explain why there are plenty of examples of Inuit and Aleut craft
that _do_ have round bottoms. The Netsiligmeot kayaks were used on lakes
and rivers and were round bottomed. Aleut baidarkas and kayaks like the
King Island were round bottomed. However, the Eastern Arctic paddlers,
who specialized in sea mammal hunting in rough conditions chose the
hard chine.

There is little real evidence that the Inuit designed and built their craft with
restrictions in resources governing.

Your "better" argument is based on misconception. If you study the
history and development of Inuit and Aleut craft you'd not make such
ridiculous statements. Look up the following authors - Eugene Arima,
David Zimmerly, George Dyson, Harvey Golden - in books and kayaking
magazines and you'll find out the reality of native craft instead of your
fantasies.

Waves catch on chines before they catch on sponsons but how much
difference that makes to very light displacement hulls like kayak I don't
know.

The most important part of your statement is "I don't know". You are
talking through your hat, willy. My hard chined kayak will allow me
to paddle though pushy waves in a straight line, while soft chined
kayaks around me are tracking wildly. Obviously there's more going on
than just the chine shape.

There's a lot more to the performance than the shape of the chine. If you
talk to designers, they will point out that the kayaks can be designed with
roughly the same properties regardless of chine shape. However, most
designs tend towards typical performance characteristics - notably the
difference in how secondary stability is perceived.

When you know what you're talking about, let us know. In the meanwhile,
don't waste our time with your fantasies about craft you know nothing about.

I can't see a kayak paddler riding out a storm sitting
bolt upright in a narrow boat without sponsons unless he or she is really
into rolling which I imagine would be exhausing.

Anyone who sits bolt upright in a kayak deserves what they get. Most of us
let the kayak move beneath us and stay upright as a result. The kayak, if
it fits properly, is an extension of the body and is exceptionally stable if
you know that. I have _never_ tipped over in any conditions, any wave height
or pattern, unless I wanted to.

Better, I think to have a
large cockpit you can lie down in. There have been kayaks, although
homemade by boat desingers and not mass produced, in which one could
recline, even sleep in overnight as Herreshoff did on his.

Do you want to paddle or sleep? Guess what - even if you're lying inside a
modern kayak, you'd be marginally stable at best. Stability is a dynamic
situation and sitting up is _more_ stable. The kayaks that are used for
trans-oceanic paddling that allow sleeping lying down are _wide_ and
big - more like sailboat hulls if you look at one extreme - Peter Bray's
Newfoundland to GB crossing. Since I'm not into barges, I'll stick to
my sea kayak.

I'm not
sure about the V-bottom speed argument as round bottoms have least wetted
surface per pound of displacement. That's just theory and I haven't any
tank tests or computer simulations to support it.

What V-bottom speed argument? Round bottoms are faster - that's why racing
kayaks have rounded bottoms. However, the average paddler would be scared
to get in one since they're so tippy. It doesn't take much to get used to, but
you never see the racers around here go outside the breakwaters to paddle.
I don't think the racers would be too interested in sponsons when gold medals
are on the line.

Stop trying to portray necessarily limited and subjective personal
impression as fact. You seem to be arguing from a sea kayaking perspective
using production boats (which are marketed on appearance as much as
anything else).

My knowledge is based on years of paddling, study and talking with folks who
design kayaks for a living. I'm not limiting myself to production kayaks - there
are a lot of skin on frame, stitch and glue, cedar strip and other homemade
kayaks out there. I've got a partially completed one in the garage that'll be on
the water this fall. 17 foot by 18" beam, hard chine in the Greenlandic style.
You won't find production kayaks in that category.

You on the other hand have only minutes of experience in production, recreational
kayaks - not sea kayaks in ocean or Great Lakes storms. Yet you keep trying
to tell us what to do. First you spout nonsense about waxing hulls even though
waxing has no benefit and may be detrimental to performance. Then you rag
on hard chine hulls, even though you have no idea how they handle and don't
have any experience with the benefits. Then you make ridiculous statements
about what the Inuit have done, even though you have no clue what the historical
record shows.

If someone should stop posting nonsense - it's you!

What's your experince with sponsons? I've used them with good results on
two boats I've desinged and built for myself.

Look at the sponson threads in r.b.p - I've already listed my experiences.

Mike

On 31-Aug-2003, "Michael Daly" wrote:

Then kindly explain why there are plenty of examples of Inuit and Aleut craft
that _do_ have round bottoms. The Netsiligmeot kayaks were used on lakes
and rivers and were round bottomed. Aleut baidarkas and kayaks like the
King Island were round bottomed. However, the Eastern Arctic paddlers,
who specialized in sea mammal hunting in rough conditions chose the
hard chine.

An apology here - I mixed up "round bottom" and "round chine" in these
examples. The Baidarkas and such of the western Arctic are round
chined, not round bottomed. As such they don't have the stability issues
of a round bottomed kayak. However, the point I'm trying to make is that
the Inuit and Aleut can and did make a wide variety of boats and were
clearly in a position to choose their designs according to their needs,
contrary to what Willy-boy contends.

Mike

(William R. Watt) wrote in
:

John Fereira ) writes:

I went out on our local lake last year with a couple of friends on a
day when there were some strong winds coming down the 40 mile long
lake from the north. There were frequent 2-3' breaking waves. All
three of us are experienced in and have practiced several different
reentry techniques. We paddled about a mile out and decided to
practice some re-entries. First we tried the "cowboy" rescue as
described above. Even though my Outer Island is narrow (21"), has a
very low rear deck, and a cockpit large enough to sit in before
putting in my legs, I was unable to sucessfully get back in using a
cowboy rescue after four attempts.

was the problem, the narrow beam and cockpit? you have to push up right
quick because the hull is least stable when you're sitting upright.

As I said, I've sucessfully performed that rescue technique many times. The
narrow beam actually makes it easier to straddle the boat and the cockpit is
big enough such that I can sit down before putting my legs in, although one
of my other boats does have an ocean cockpit. The point is that I've
actually practiced the method under a range of conditions, and in the kind
of conditions that are most likely going to cause a capsize I found it
unreliable.

perhaps its not a good technique for some people on those very narrow
boats. I don't think I'd need to use a paddle brace but that's
personal.

Frankly, I would prefer to know with a high amount of certainty what would
work and what would not.

After the fourth time capsizing before
*almost* getting back into the cockpit, I grabbed my paddle float and
was back in the cockpit in less than 30 seconds. Only one of the
three of us managed to reenter his kayak and stay upright using a
cowboy rescue that day. On flatter water all of us have sucessfully
used a cowboy rescue to reenter many, many times. Usually, however,
if we have capsized we just roll up or use and assisted eskimo rescue
off a paddling partners bow. That's the way the easter Canadians,
Greenlanders, Aluets, and Innuit have been doing it for generations.

I guess you've never had any alligator wresting experience, there,
sonny.

Sonny? You have no idea how old I am.

I don't see you listed with the WRWF (World Reptile Wrestling
Federation). "Cowboy"? What "cowboy"" What do dry dirty dusty cowboys
know about getting back into boats they've fallen out of?

"Cowboy reentry" is the commonly used name to describe the technique which
you claim is the normal way for kayakers to reenter their boat. I assume
it's because it involves straddling the boat as you climb up toward the
cockpit as if one were riding a horse, or as in the case of the conditions
that are likely going to cause a capsize, a bucking bronco.


Ever done any
log rolling?

No, but I'm pretty proficient at kayak rolling.


I've never paddled around Iceland, and God only knows why anybody would
want to. I'll bet even teh native don't do it any more, unless maybe
offered large sums of money by tourists.

You'd lose that bet. Chris, Leon, and Shawna met several local kayakers
along the way and gave some instruction at a couple of Icelandic kayak
clubs. As to why anyone would want to paddle around Iceland, if you're
really interested you can read about their expedition at
http://www.icelandexpedition2003.com


Climbing in over the rear deck
worked for me. It wasn't even a challenge. Maybe its all the swimming
and water polo and getting in and out of the pool.

How many times did you try it and under what conditions?

I can understand why
you'd want to go in a group of like-minded people (???) where you
paddle

Can you? It's a group of good friends that goes out on Wednesday's after
work to practice a variety of skills and just have fun on the water. We
practice a lot of things that make us better and safer solo paddlers as
well. The advantage of practicing as a group is that if something isn't
working it is much easier to reenter with the assistance of another
accomplished paddler using a bow assist rescue, paddle assist rescue, a T-X
with it's several variations, an H-I rescue, etc.

Just out of curiosity, do you think you could reenter a kayak or your
sailboat if you had a dislocated shoulder? How about if you were
hypothermic? Yes, we practice hand-of-god rescues as well.

but I'm strictly a solo paddler on the lakes and rivers of
Ontario where waves and cold water are not unkown.

The lake that I am describing is only about an hour and half south of Lake
Ontario. It's 40 miles long so we get some pretty big waves and cold water
here too. I was out a couple of days ago when there were 2-3' breaking
waves. BTW, I don't believe your 6' waves on the Rideau canal story for an
instant. I'm sure that if they are as common as you claim you should be able
to provide a picture.

In one of my less
rational moments I did go out in a parka in December to see what it was
like. I rely on myself to re-enter any boat I might fall out of. I
don't know what experinece you've had with sponsons but I've found them
usefull on two narrow boats, both of which had a 24" beam.

Sponsons are used to avoid re-entry.

So are strong bracing skills and the ability to self-right a boat by
rolling.

"Michael Daly" ) writes:


Send him over and I'll put him to the test. Considering that you know next to
nothing about kayaking, I fail to see how you're in a position to make any
claims.

as it happens I know as much about sponson on kayaks as anyone else
who has posted in this thread, and considerably more about sponsons on
other boats. you are all talking from no experience at all and no knowledge
that I can discern. As far as I can tell I am THE ONLY person posting in
this thread who has actually used sponsons.

and I've just as much experience re-entering kayaks. my one re-entry
on a demo boat being more than most posting in this thread have done.

additionaly, OF COURSE THERE ARE NO SIX FOOT WAKES ON THE RIDEAU CANAL. Its
amazing how gullible, or more likely so wrapped up in their own
self-importance, some people can be not to recognize when someone is
pulling their leg. if there were 6 ft wakes they would suck the sunbathers
off the beach on Mooney's Bay into deep water and drown them like kittens,
and drastically reduce the value of waterfront property. geessh, get a life.

I'd like to make two observations. First, you complained that shoving a
boat cushion under my hips to raise them and allow me to get them over the
gunwale of my boat was inadvisable because the cushion might float away.
yet you accept a kayka re-entry technique which depends on using a paddle
float without question. I'd advise kayakers who are serious about re-entry
to forget about re-entry aids and practice unaided re-entry until they can
do it under any conditions with their eyes closed and one hand tied behind
their back. That should meet your requirements. It meets mine.

The other observation is I don't agree with the other poster that it's
most likely that person would fall out of his or her kayak in rough water.
Only a few fanatics would paddle in rough conditions and then only
occasionally unless they have become obsessed with rough weather conditons
and distain paddling in normal conditions. This applies especially to sea
kayaking because surveys of ocean sailors have shown that offshore
cruisers encounter winds of 12-15 mph most of the time. Its what makes
ocean cruising such a popular activity. Nobody enjoys being tossed around
riding out storms at sea. If you spend most of your time in good boating
conditions then that's when you will fall out of your kayak most often,
when you least expect it. Its a human thing, not a weather thing. I seldom
go boating in rough weather and I've fallen out of boats more than I care
to admit. I don't drink. Its that momentary lack of attention, the day
dreaming from repetition and boredom that has done me in, not rough
weather. This summer I saw one kayak paddle right over top of anther and
the paddler fall out. There is no way he could have rolled out of that
situtation. If you were to paddle onto a submerged log or other debris you
too could not roll the boat. You'd just fall out. And as likely as not if
startled, eg dive bombed by a seagull, the paddler would throw the paddle
in the air landing out of reach and unavailable to assist in a re-entry.
Nope, I'd work on that unassisted re-entry and not rely on the paddle. Now
sponsons, they stay with the boat. I'd invest my safety dollar in a good
set of sponsons and maybe go a bit slower from an occasional bit of drag
on wavetops. What people really object to but won't admit is that sponsons
don't make their sleek colourful boats look sexy. Sponsons just don't fit
their self image as kayakers. Nothing to do with performance or safety.
Everything to do with appearances. Bah.




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(William R. Watt) writes:

"Michael Daly" ) writes:


Send him over and I'll put him to the test. Considering that you know next to
nothing about kayaking, I fail to see how you're in a position to make any
claims.

as it happens I know as much about sponson on kayaks as anyone else
who has posted in this thread, and considerably more about sponsons on
other boats. you are all talking from no experience at all and no knowledge
that I can discern. As far as I can tell I am THE ONLY person posting in
this thread who has actually used sponsons.

I've also never attached theatrical risers to the sides of my car,
but I don't intend to try that, either. Y'ever hear of, "If it
ain't broke, don't fix it"? Or maybe, "Not everybody has to try
everything to know it's a bad idea"?

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Mary Malmros wrote in
:

John Fereira writes:

(William R. Watt) wrote in
[snipster]
but I'm strictly a solo paddler on the lakes and rivers of
Ontario where waves and cold water are not unkown.

The lake that I am describing is only about an hour and half south of
Lake Ontario.

Heh...you'll appreciate this, John, since you're from my same
latitude and only a short ways west. Every summer, me and my buds
head _north_ to Ontario for the warm-water paddling on the Ottawa
River. The section we paddle is controlled by a top-release dam,
and it's considerably warmer than the Deerfield, which is
bottom-release. It feels like bath-water to us!

A friend of mine from Ithaca goes up there quite often as well. Have you
met a guy named Matt Stevens?


Moral to that story, latitude is just _one_ factor influencing water
temperature...and often, not the most important one.

There's a similar scenario not far from here. I've gone flyfishing a bunch
of times on a couple of rivers in the Catskills. Both the east and west
branch of the Delaware river are tailwater rivers (fed from the bottom of a
dam). The west branch is fed from Cannonsville reserveroir all summer but
the feed into the east branch from Pepacton reservoir is reduced
significantly. As a result, the water temperature goes up and many of the
fish in the east branch move into the west branch.

On 2-Sep-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote:

as it happens I know as much about sponson on kayaks as anyone else
who has posted in this thread,

You know how much I know about sponsons? Really? When did you ever go
paddling with me when I was checking out a kayak with sponsons?

You've spent a few minutes of time in kayaks in your whole life! How much of
that with sponsons? Get off yor high horse!

As far as I can tell I am THE ONLY person posting in
this thread who has actually used sponsons.

Probably because you haven't been paying attention to the others in these
threads. You are not the only one and your experience with kayaks is trivial.

and I've just as much experience re-entering kayaks. my one re-entry
on a demo boat being more than most posting in this thread have done.

One re-entry makes you an expert? That's your problem, willy-boy, you
think you're an expert when you actually know nothing at all. Some of us
practice re-entry techniques _frequently_ and even pay for pool time in the
winter just to practice. I've practiced _many_ different techniques for
re-entry, solo and assisted. That's why I _know_ you're full of ****.

I'd like to make two observations. First, you complained that shoving a
boat cushion under my hips to raise them and allow me to get them over the
gunwale of my boat was inadvisable because the cushion might float away.
yet you accept a kayka re-entry technique which depends on using a paddle
float without question.

No, that was Mary.

You obviously don't know paddle float re-entry. In a standard paddle float re-entry,
the paddle float is _attached_ to the paddle and the paddle to the kayak, so it isn't
going to float away.

Look up Sea Seats on the web. There are products sold for kayakers that do
exactly what your seat cushion does, except that it's designed for rescue in rough
conditions. I know kayakers who use them.

I'd advise kayakers who are serious about re-entry
to forget about re-entry aids and practice unaided re-entry until they can
do it under any conditions with their eyes closed and one hand tied behind
their back. That should meet your requirements. It meets mine.

Which precludes the use of sponsons.

This is exactly what some of us have been saying for a while. Too bad you don't
pay attention. Yes I can re-enter a kayak and roll up with one hand tied behind my
back. In fact I know several rolls that allow me to do that (butterfly roll, armpit roll,
window shade roll, storm roll variation etc.)

Only a few fanatics would paddle in rough conditions and then only
occasionally unless they have become obsessed with rough weather conditons
and distain paddling in normal conditions.

Well this means a lot of us will stay home. The reason you want to paddle in
rough conditions is because they happen a lot. Squalls on the Great Lakes
come up fast - hell, even Lac des Chenes off Brittania Bay gets some good
summer squalls. Any paddler that spends their paddling time in calm water
assuming that all will be well is setting themselves up for a disaster.
Every paddler should be comfortable in rough conditions. Besides, that's
when paddling gets to be fun. And when my hard chine kayak really behaves
well.

If you spend most of your time in good boating
conditions then that's when you will fall out of your kayak most often,
when you least expect it.

Years of sea kayaking under all conditions on the Great Lakes and oceans
and no upsets unless I wanted to. Kayaks are _not_ that unstable. Your
comments are based on ignorance.

Its a human thing, not a weather thing. I seldom
go boating in rough weather and I've fallen out of boats more than I care
to admit.

You also brag about never taking lessons. Maybe if you learned something
about boating, you'd fall out less. In many years of sailing, canoeing and
kayaking, I've suffered no upsets in calm conditions. In fact the only upsets
have been canoeing and kayaking in WW.

If you were to paddle onto a submerged log or other debris you
too could not roll the boat. You'd just fall out.

I've paddled onto submerged and semi-submerged stuff (logs, rocks, ice etc)
many times and never tipped. Falling out of kayaks is something that rarely
happens.

It would be straightforward to roll up under these conditions but you'd have to
scull or brace in the upright condition until you gain full control. I've actually
practiced these things. You, on the other hand, are full of ****.

And as likely as not if
startled, eg dive bombed by a seagull, the paddler would throw the paddle
in the air landing out of reach and unavailable to assist in a re-entry.

If birds startle you that much, stay home. Most of us don't let go
of the paddle - it's trained into us. Besides, smart paddlers carry
spares.

Nope, I'd work on that unassisted re-entry and not rely on the paddle. Now
sponsons, they stay with the boat. I'd invest my safety dollar in a good
set of sponsons and maybe go a bit slower from an occasional bit of drag
on wavetops.

This is _not_ an unassisted re-entry. This is an assisted re-entry. Sponsons
are used to assist paddlers back into the kayak.

What people really object to but won't admit is that sponsons
don't make their sleek colourful boats look sexy. Sponsons just don't fit
their self image as kayakers. Nothing to do with performance or safety.
Everything to do with appearances. Bah.

You continue to ignore what folks have been saying about sponsons.

1) they don't work as well as some people claim. Other techniques are just as
effective.

2) Sponsons are slower to deploy than paddle floats or other techniques.

3) Excess time in the water due to sponsons means greater threat of
hypothermia. Paddlers who actually know what they're talking about
rate rescue techniques with time-in-water as a critical criteria.

4) Sponsons provide limited stability improvements compared to claims.

5) Increasing the stability of a boat in rough conditions _increases_ the likelyhood
of upset. Stability on flat water is instability on waves.

6) If broached on a breaking wave, sponsons _greatly_ increase the likelyhood
of capsize. A narrow kayak can be edged into the wave and be more stable
with a proper brace.

7) Sponsons, if deployed, significantly increase drag. Kayaks don't have enough
freeboard to keep them above water.

8) Sponsons give people a false sense of security, leading them into conditions
where they don't belong. Training and practice, not gear, is what is important.

Get a clue willy-boy. You're just an ignorant blowhard.

Mike

"Michael Daly" ) writes:
On 2-Sep-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote:

as it happens I know as much about sponson on kayaks as anyone else
who has posted in this thread,

You know how much I know about sponsons? Really? When did you ever go
paddling with me when I was checking out a kayak with sponsons?

Yes, of course I know you know nothing sponsons, because if you did know
anything about sponsons it would have been obvious in what you've written in
this long rambling discussion.


You've spent a few minutes of time in kayaks in your whole life! How much of
that with sponsons? Get off yor high horse!

I claim experince in a range of small boats makes a person capable of
making accurate comparisons after 2-3 hours investigating a number of
different kayak models. You experience may differ and you have no way of
knowing what someone else tell about kayaks after trying a number of them.
As I wrote earlier, you are writing from compatitively limited experience,
It shows in what you contribute to the discussion. You also deomstrate a
very competitive obsessive temperment, it that's any use to you.


As far as I can tell I am THE ONLY person posting in
this thread who has actually used sponsons.

Probably because you haven't been paying attention to the others in these
threads. You are not the only one and your experience with kayaks is trivial.

and I've just as much experience re-entering kayaks. my one re-entry
on a demo boat being more than most posting in this thread have done.

One re-entry makes you an expert?

"Expert" is not a word I would use for myself, and certainly not for you
based on what you've written to date.

That's your problem, willy-boy, you
think you're an expert when you actually know nothing at all. Some of us
practice re-entry techniques _frequently_ and even pay for pool time in the
winter just to practice. I've practiced _many_ different techniques for
re-entry, solo and assisted. That's why I _know_ you're full of ****.

I'd like to make two observations. First, you complained that shoving a
boat cushion under my hips to raise them and allow me to get them over the
gunwale of my boat was inadvisable because the cushion might float away.
yet you accept a kayka re-entry technique which depends on using a paddle
float without question.

No, that was Mary.

You obviously don't know paddle float re-entry. In a standard paddle float re-entry,
the paddle float is _attached_ to the paddle and the paddle to the kayak, so it isn't
going to float away.

Look up Sea Seats on the web. There are products sold for kayakers that do
exactly what your seat cushion does, except that it's designed for rescue in rough
conditions. I know kayakers who use them.

I'd advise kayakers who are serious about re-entry
to forget about re-entry aids and practice unaided re-entry until they can
do it under any conditions with their eyes closed and one hand tied behind
their back. That should meet your requirements. It meets mine.

Which precludes the use of sponsons.

No it does not. Sponsons, for those who have been reading this thread with
any understanding at all, are intended to prevent capsize and subsequent
re-entry. They are not a re-entry aid.


This is exactly what some of us have been saying for a while. Too bad you don't
pay attention. Yes I can re-enter a kayak and roll up with one hand tied behind my
back. In fact I know several rolls that allow me to do that (butterfly roll, armpit roll,
window shade roll, storm roll variation etc.)

Only a few fanatics would paddle in rough conditions and then only
occasionally unless they have become obsessed with rough weather conditons
and distain paddling in normal conditions.

Well this means a lot of us will stay home. The reason you want to paddle in
rough conditions is because they happen a lot. Squalls on the Great Lakes
come up fast - hell, even Lac des Chenes off Brittania Bay gets some good
summer squalls.

Yes but anyone with any boating experience can see themn comming from far
enougth away to get to shore. At one of the evening demos I attended, in
fact the one when I tried re-entering a kayak, the sales rep was concered
about some thunder and lightning. She was reluctant to let me go out until
I pointe out to her that the clouds were moving upriver, the cold front
had passed, and the light and noise show was moving away, not toward us.
Reading winds and weather patterns is basic to sailing. Its not an option
for sailing like it is for paddling.

Any paddler that spends their paddling time in calm water
assuming that all will be well is setting themselves up for a disaster.
Every paddler should be comfortable in rough conditions. Besides, that's
when paddling gets to be fun. And when my hard chine kayak really behaves
well.

Yep, and you are writing according to personal prefernce, not mine which
I see as more wide ranging, or that of the general paddling public.
"Limited" is the word I used to describe your outlook and experience.


If you spend most of your time in good boating
conditions then that's when you will fall out of your kayak most often,
when you least expect it.

Years of sea kayaking under all conditions on the Great Lakes and oceans
and no upsets unless I wanted to. Kayaks are _not_ that unstable. Your
comments are based on ignorance.

Are you claiming capsize and re-entry is a non-issue? Or just a non-issue
yourself?


Its a human thing, not a weather thing. I seldom
go boating in rough weather and I've fallen out of boats more than I care
to admit.

You also brag about never taking lessons. Maybe if you learned something
about boating, you'd fall out less. In many years of sailing, canoeing and
kayaking, I've suffered no upsets in calm conditions. In fact the only upsets
have been canoeing and kayaking in WW.

If you were to paddle onto a submerged log or other debris you
too could not roll the boat. You'd just fall out.

I've paddled onto submerged and semi-submerged stuff (logs, rocks, ice etc)
many times and never tipped. Falling out of kayaks is something that rarely
happens.

It would be straightforward to roll up under these conditions but you'd have to
scull or brace in the upright condition until you gain full control. I've actually
practiced these things. You, on the other hand, are full of ****.

And as likely as not if
startled, eg dive bombed by a seagull, the paddler would throw the paddle
in the air landing out of reach and unavailable to assist in a re-entry.

If birds startle you that much, stay home. Most of us don't let go
of the paddle - it's trained into us. Besides, smart paddlers carry
spares.

Nope, I'd work on that unassisted re-entry and not rely on the paddle. Now
sponsons, they stay with the boat. I'd invest my safety dollar in a good
set of sponsons and maybe go a bit slower from an occasional bit of drag
on wavetops.

This is _not_ an unassisted re-entry. This is an assisted re-entry. Sponsons
are used to assist paddlers back into the kayak.

What people really object to but won't admit is that sponsons
don't make their sleek colourful boats look sexy. Sponsons just don't fit
their self image as kayakers. Nothing to do with performance or safety.
Everything to do with appearances. Bah.

You continue to ignore what folks have been saying about sponsons.

1) they don't work as well as some people claim. Other techniques are just as
effective.

2) Sponsons are slower to deploy than paddle floats or other techniques.

3) Excess time in the water due to sponsons means greater threat of
hypothermia. Paddlers who actually know what they're talking about
rate rescue techniques with time-in-water as a critical criteria.

4) Sponsons provide limited stability improvements compared to claims.

5) Increasing the stability of a boat in rough conditions _increases_ the likelyhood
of upset. Stability on flat water is instability on waves.

6) If broached on a breaking wave, sponsons _greatly_ increase the likelyhood
of capsize. A narrow kayak can be edged into the wave and be more stable
with a proper brace.

7) Sponsons, if deployed, significantly increase drag. Kayaks don't have enough
freeboard to keep them above water.

8) Sponsons give people a false sense of security, leading them into conditions
where they don't belong. Training and practice, not gear, is what is important.

Agressivness like yours is what leads paddlers into coniditions where they
don't belong, not safety mindedness.


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