On 25/01/2010 4:06 AM, Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message
...

"I am wrote in message
...

The roads and bridges are fine, and the dollar for dollar return in
products is not as good when spent on highway maintenance as it would be
in a decent sock factory. It's not the infrastructure that is holding
back our manufacturing. It's the Un..... well, either way, we need to
address the things that are killing the manufacturing base.

Old instructor told me long ago, don't bother with the bee, go for the
stinger...

Scotty, we need to go for the stinger.


The roads and bridges are dandy, until they collapse. Infrastructure is
one of the things we really need to work on in this country.


The reason they haven't been is .... no money. An otherwise healthy
business climate must
exist generating tax revenues is needed to pay for fixing the roads a
bridges. A healthy
business climate is something we don't have.

Agreed. From a pure divident point of view, the risk/reward isn't there
fo 9/10 companies. Serious problem going forward.

If government could generate wealth, we would all be working for
government. But someone has to do the work.

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 12:59:43 -0500, I am Tosk
wrote:

I still think putting all that money into roads that folks will drive
around on for free isn't as good as putting the money into factories t
make hard goods that can be sold to the public...

Scotty


Without decent roads, how will they get those goods to market?
Roads aren't "free" anyway. They get funded through gas taxes.
Unfortunately that fund gets raided for non-road things.

Well, I am certainly not advocating stopping maintenance on current
roads and such, but that alone is not going to save our economy or
manufacturing base. I don't think there are too many here who really
trust that the union highway workers are "productive" with our money. We
need to start making products again, period...

Our road crews are usually non-union contractors. We only wish they
would hire locally instead of outsourcing from "Blue" counties. The
stimulus money seems to be targeted that way.

No doubt the stimulus was more to reward blue areas and punish red
ones..

Scotty

In article ,
says...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...

"I am Tosk" wrote in message

This is just pie in the sky, there is no cause and effect. The middle
class is mostly non-union and self employed.


I don't believe it's the case that most middle class people are
self-employed.


Word games.
It is accurate to state that the majority of middle class working people are
either non-union, work for a non-union company *or* are self-employed.

In fact, I think that pretty much covers *all* working people.

Eisboch

Yes, that is what I meant to say...

Scotty

On Jan 25, 6:53*pm, thunder wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:30:51 -0800, Jack wrote:
On Jan 25, 4:09*pm, thunder wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:59:56 -0500, Harry wrote:
thunder wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 12:40:57 -0800, nom=de=plume wrote:

And, it's never an either/or situation. There are typically union
and non-union shops. So, your statement about if they don't like
the wage, they can go somewhere else doesn't necessarily apply.
There might be other non-union shops, but there might not be.

Let's not forget the 22 "Right to work" states.

That's the "22 right-to-work-for-less" states.

Yup, the map would seem to correspond to the lower wage states.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Right_to_work.svg

The right to work states have the lowest cost of living.

Meanwhile, those union states have the highest unemployment, closed down
factories, biggest social problem, highest cost of living, etc.

South Carolina has the new Boeing plant coming here.

"CHICAGO—Boeing Co. said it would build a second final assembly line for
its troubled 787 Dreamliner jet in South Carolina, a move that spurns
the powerful aircraft machinists' union that had been negotiating with
Boeing to locate the work at the current factory near Seattle."

"It's the first time since 2006 that Boeing will assemble a commercial
airplane outside of the Puget Sound area and provides the company with
an assembly line beyond the reach of the labor union that has caused
production headaches off and on for decades in Seattle."

How are those unions working out for ya?

Fine, you are the one complaining about unions. *Oh, and the Boeing story
seems to make a lie out of what you posted up-thread.

"In a union environment, the job and it's wages are controlled by the
union
through coercion. *As we've seen, the market's ability to sustain the wage
seemingly has no influence on the demands of the unions. The company has
no choice, as it can not terminate striking workers, and will go under if
it does not comply with the union's demands. *It is essentially held
hostage until bled dry."

It would seem the company has a choice, doesn't it?

They had no choice but to vacate their home plant, in their home
state, and spend millions building another plant all the way across
the country just to get away from a union that "has caused production
headaches off and on for decades in Seattle." That's a legacy to be
proud of for the union.

Boeing will find that, unlike their west coast union employees, South
Carolina workers aren't whiny-ass bitches.

nom=de=plume wrote:
"I am Tosk" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:52:08 -0800, Jack wrote:

On Jan 25, 2:19 pm, thunder wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:11:32 -0800, Jack wrote:
No, it's called greed. It's not market driven when the company has
no choice but to pay.
Gordon Gekko, "Greed...is good."
You're basing your position on a fictional character? Awesome.


Collective bargaining = legalized coercion.
I'm glad you finally see it. Although, I'm sure that you are in denial
that a corporation is a collective by definition.
Big difference in application, though.

In a non-union environment, the company offers the jobs for a wage, and
the workers have a choice to take it or not. The wage is driven by ,
among other factors, market conditions.

In a union environment, the job and it's wages are controlled by the
union through coercion. As we've seen, the market's ability to sustain
the wage seemingly has no influence on the demands of the unions. The
company has no choice, as it can not terminate striking workers, and
will go under if it does not comply with the union's demands. It is
essentially held hostage until bled dry.
The entire history of the labor movement, not withstanding. Coercion is
just as likely to come from management, as from the union.
Not necessarily true. I have been in several unions and worked in and
around union shops from CT to Texasasasas.... The only violence and
"thuggery" I have ever seen is directly traceable to the unions, not the
management. I have been in factorys that were voting, and never saw
coercion from the mgt, but certainly did from the other side. This is
real world expedience, I have posted about it before, I am sure you have
seen it...

You don't know much about history then...

The entire
concept of unions, is to balance the equation. If either side gets out
of whack, the system doesn't work. You seem quite willing to accept the
company's collective, take it or leave it position. I'll point out,
that's many against one. With a union, it's many against many. Which is
fairer?
Are you asking us for our opinion, or should we just agree with yours?
Really, if "everybody" thought the way you do, there would be no need to
vote and 80% of the country wouldn't be non-union.

Easy concepts to grasp, if you'll just... think.
While you're thinking, consider this. The strength of this country is
the middle class, and the strength of the middle class correlates quite
closely with union membership. Cause and effect?
This is just pie in the sky, there is no cause and effect. The middle
class is mostly non-union and self employed.

I don't believe it's the case that most middle class people are
self-employed.

Look into it and come back to us with some numbers. I don't believe the
sky is falling, but you never know.

Harry wrote:


Look into it and come back to us with some numbers. I don't believe the
sky is falling, but you never know.


Sorry, "flajims," but the real Harry uses a mac and doesn't post as a
Harry using "Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/2009)"

Canuck57 wrote:
On 25/01/2010 4:02 AM, Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message
...


What's wrong with wind turbines? They seem to work... of course, it'll
require some investment...


One problem is that they are notoriously over-rated in terms of their
output
capacity.
Another big problem is environmentalists.
Another big oops is that the optimum areas that large scale wind turbine
generating plants would
be located are typically remote with no existing way to get the power
to the
grid.
The cost of getting the power to the grid can be enormous and full of
additional environmental
impacts and/or objections.

Eisboch

Actually, i would say serious technical problems. No wind, night time,
people want to charge their cars does not work. Something to do with
the laws of physics that our fantasy leaders can't over come.

Our fantasy leaders are a bunch of Don Quixotes.

Harry wrote:
Canuck57 wrote:
On 25/01/2010 4:02 AM, Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message
...


What's wrong with wind turbines? They seem to work... of course, it'll
require some investment...


One problem is that they are notoriously over-rated in terms of their
output
capacity.
Another big problem is environmentalists.
Another big oops is that the optimum areas that large scale wind turbine
generating plants would
be located are typically remote with no existing way to get the power
to the
grid.
The cost of getting the power to the grid can be enormous and full of
additional environmental
impacts and/or objections.

Eisboch

Actually, i would say serious technical problems. No wind, night
time, people want to charge their cars does not work. Something to do
with the laws of physics that our fantasy leaders can't over come.

Our fantasy leaders are a bunch of Don Quixotes.


Sorry, "flajims," but the real Harry uses a mac and doesn't post as a
Harry using "Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812)"

Harry wrote:
Canuck57 wrote:
On 25/01/2010 4:02 AM, Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message
...


What's wrong with wind turbines? They seem to work... of course, it'll
require some investment...


One problem is that they are notoriously over-rated in terms of their
output
capacity.
Another big problem is environmentalists.
Another big oops is that the optimum areas that large scale wind turbine
generating plants would
be located are typically remote with no existing way to get the power
to the
grid.
The cost of getting the power to the grid can be enormous and full of
additional environmental
impacts and/or objections.

Eisboch

Actually, i would say serious technical problems. No wind, night
time, people want to charge their cars does not work. Something to do
with the laws of physics that our fantasy leaders can't over come.

Our fantasy leaders are a bunch of Don Quixotes.


--
Harry has access to a PC and is perfectly capable of using it to make a
convincing spoof, as we have already seen. In fact we have seen screen
shots of his desktop which included spoofing software. One might ask
oneself if someone has spoofing software on his desk top, would he be
likely to use it?
Ask your self these questions. Is this post a spoof? Am I responding to
a spoof? Why am I reading posts that are likely to be spoofs?

Harry wrote:
Harry wrote:
Canuck57 wrote:
On 25/01/2010 4:02 AM, Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message
...


What's wrong with wind turbines? They seem to work... of course, it'll
require some investment...


One problem is that they are notoriously over-rated in terms of
their output
capacity.
Another big problem is environmentalists.
Another big oops is that the optimum areas that large scale wind
turbine
generating plants would
be located are typically remote with no existing way to get the
power to the
grid.
The cost of getting the power to the grid can be enormous and full of
additional environmental
impacts and/or objections.

Eisboch

Actually, i would say serious technical problems. No wind, night
time, people want to charge their cars does not work. Something to
do with the laws of physics that our fantasy leaders can't over come.

Our fantasy leaders are a bunch of Don Quixotes.


Sorry, "flajims," but the real Harry uses a mac and doesn't post as a
Harry using "Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812)"


--
Harry has access to a PC and is perfectly capable of using it to make a
convincing spoof, as we have already seen. In fact we have seen screen
shots of his desktop which included spoofing software. One might ask
oneself if someone has spoofing software on his desk top, would he be
likely to use it?
Ask your self these questions. Is this post a spoof? Am I responding to
a spoof? Why am I reading posts that are likely to be spoofs?