"I am Tosk" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...


This is just pie in the sky, there is no cause and effect. The middle
class is mostly non-union and self employed.

Scotty

Let me clear that last line up. What I meant was the the middle class is
"made up of" non-union and/or self employed.. Sorry, I am sure the ones
I have filtered are already all over this, hopefully you will not fall
into that trap

Scotty



Partially, but I'm betting a significant, if not a majority of the middle
class work for companies and are not self-employed.

--
Nom=de=Plume

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...

"I am Tosk" wrote in message

This is just pie in the sky, there is no cause and effect. The middle
class is mostly non-union and self employed.


I don't believe it's the case that most middle class people are
self-employed.


Word games.
It is accurate to state that the majority of middle class working people are
either non-union, work for a non-union company *or* are self-employed.

In fact, I think that pretty much covers *all* working people.

Eisboch

On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 23:57:11 -0500, Eisboch wrote:


Word games.
It is accurate to state that the majority of middle class working people
are either non-union, work for a non-union company *or* are
self-employed.

In fact, I think that pretty much covers *all* working people.

I think, including public workers, unions account for a little over 12%
of the workforce. They had been a dwindling segment, but apparently, in
the last several years, union membership has shown a bit of an uptick.

On 24/01/2010 4:57 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 11:13:31 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

There will be no meaningful recovery until we find a way to replace
all the jobs that we have sent offshore.


Not sure I agree with the "replace all" comment, but I do certainly agree
with the rest of the statement.


I am not sure why you disagree with "all" unless you mean "all plus
the new kids entering the market".
Our economy has been based on the middle class having good jobs. We
really have to start making things here again.
Maybe we should have a telethon to collect money to rebuild the US
infrastructure after we are done in Haiti..

If you use a term such as "all" or "every" it's almost always wrong. Some
jobs won't be replaced.

We can't all work for the government. Nothing would get done.

On 25/01/2010 3:56 AM, Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:56:47 -0500, I am Tosk
wrote:

There are plenty of things we need in the
infrastructure area. We just need to talk people into paying for it.

The roads and bridges are fine, and the dollar for dollar return in
products is not as good when spent on highway maintenance as it would be
in a decent sock factory. It's not the infrastructure that is holding
back our manufacturing. It's the Un..... well, either way, we need to
address the things that are killing the manufacturing base.

When you start building roads and bridges you also crank up the heavy
equipment factories, the cement plants and the steel fabricators.
There are also other infrastructure items like our failing sewer
systems and water distribution that need work.
We would put a lot of people to work if this wind generation scheme
caught hold but the environmentalists will never let it happen.


I just don't get it. Government spending on infrastructure may create some
jobs in
certain industries, but it needs to be paid for by tax revenues from
somewhere.
Tax revenues come mostly from income taxes on employed people..... 45
percent, I think.
Point is, there has to be more private industry jobs hiring people who pay
taxes than just
those working on infrastructure improvements to pay for it.

Otherwise, the US just continues to borrow money to create a few jobs.

Eisboch

None of this is being paid for, more debt, the same kind of debt that
caused this depression. Congress needs to take Obama's credit card
away, oh wait, congress is liberal-democrat....good luck.

It isn't really that government doesn't have the money for the right
things. It is about priorities and waste.

Continuing to borrow money I suspect is no longer occuring. On he debt
markets I see very little going into government paper to fund this debt.
Democrats and banks are just "creatin" it, seriously.

No one in their right mind is lending Obama #2 trillion and more to come
at a stupid silly rate of 0.01% interest. This is hyperinflationary
money creation going on. Hell, just print it. Which makes me wonder
when the USD collapses, not if.

They only call it debt as government has to account for itself as a loan
to itself in a weird sort of way.

On 24/01/2010 11:11 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 15:57:49 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 11:13:31 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

There will be no meaningful recovery until we find a way to replace
all the jobs that we have sent offshore.


Not sure I agree with the "replace all" comment, but I do certainly
agree
with the rest of the statement.


I am not sure why you disagree with "all" unless you mean "all plus
the new kids entering the market".
Our economy has been based on the middle class having good jobs. We
really have to start making things here again.
Maybe we should have a telethon to collect money to rebuild the US
infrastructure after we are done in Haiti..



If you use a term such as "all" or "every" it's almost always wrong. Some
jobs won't be replaced.

I agree a lot of auto workers are not going to be making cars but they
could be making other things. I believe wind energy is a boondoggle
but if people are willing to do it, it is not a bad place for factory
workers to work. There are plenty of things we need in the
infrastructure area. We just need to talk people into paying for it.


What's wrong with wind turbines? They seem to work... of course, it'll
require some investment...

Then you invest. Don't ask government too, no need to. If you believe
in it, and it makes money instead of being next years garbage, you will
profit!

Governments waste... last thing we need is more of it. Current policy
is economic suicide. Pure and simple.

On 25/01/2010 4:02 AM, Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message
...


What's wrong with wind turbines? They seem to work... of course, it'll
require some investment...


One problem is that they are notoriously over-rated in terms of their output
capacity.
Another big problem is environmentalists.
Another big oops is that the optimum areas that large scale wind turbine
generating plants would
be located are typically remote with no existing way to get the power to the
grid.
The cost of getting the power to the grid can be enormous and full of
additional environmental
impacts and/or objections.

Eisboch

Actually, i would say serious technical problems. No wind, night time,
people want to charge their cars does not work. Something to do with
the laws of physics that our fantasy leaders can't over come.

On 24/01/2010 6:35 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 24/01/2010 3:57 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 15:02:26 -0500,
wrote:

Chinese are tightening their credit. I thinks Obama's problems just
got
worse. Especially if China wants some of that maturing US debt paid
off.


What happens if the USA just says, "No"?

Just curious.

Short answer ...
The dollar would be devalued and oil would cost more, among other
things.

Good answer, hyper inflation due to currency devaluation. And I really
think that is the liberal game plan. Has been for over 2 years as nothing
else explains the mad-hatter direction of government other than pure
insanity, which may be true all the same. Here goes my view on how
government is thinking on this depression.

Government does not sees the problem as people not having money, they see
homes in a recession pricing. It makes it attractive for a family to toss
the keys to the banks and walk. Growth is needed to hide losses and screw
ups.

Part of the plan is getting people to put all the money in seemingly safe
places, T-bills, money market, cash places. At ultra low interest rates.

Now lets say let the dollar fall by say 75% in a rapid period of time, too
fast to move out of cash and sell t-bills etc. Just stop honoring debt,
just like Iceland just did. Who knows, they could be the pilot group.

So if one woke up and oil went from $80 barrel to $320 a barrel, the
government just devlaued it's $12 trillion dollar debt by 75%, as people
get wage increases in the inflation cycle, and money is stuck in low
interest, the currency debt and fiscal debt becomes depreciated on the
backs of people with money.

It is why I am in pure cash (can buy gold/stock/real-esate etc) on a
click. But will not touch a morgage mutual, t-bill or cd/gic with a 10
foot poll. I view lending right now as toxic. Even if it is lending to
government. The only way I would lend to government is with an infation
clause and 5% premium without taxation. Otherwie a brick of gold looks
pretty good.

Lets take a scenario, person A buys $1000 of oil, say 12.5 barrels of it.
Person B buys a T-bill at a meaningless interest rate. Then the dollar
plumets as debt isn't honored against the currency itself.

Person A still has 12.5 barels of oil worth $4000. Person B has $1000.10
that now can only purchase 1/4 of what it did not too long ago. Value
currency depreciation.

More people will get jobs if it goes far enough as then US goods become
cheap like Chinese ones. Hyper inflation as coffee goes from $10 a tine
to $40, but government doesn't give a damn about retired and people, they
are just to milk for statism. Wages will not keep up.

How this addresses housing is simple. If a home is $200K to build today,
but is selling for $180K, and has a $200K morgage, after inflation it
changes to perhaps $500K to build and $400k to buy. No idiot will oss the
keys for that sweet deal.

To understand government policy, it becomes easy once you realize they are
the biggest meanist delinquent dysfunctional debtors going. A debt monger
mindset and plent of self denial.

Time will tell, but in 2010 some time we should see a big move down in USD
value. Big move actually. Probably in the later hald as the mini recovery
bubble pops.



If you think hyperinflation is coming, claiming that you've got all cash
isn't exactly where you want to be. You should be complete in a precious
metals, since you may not be able to "click" and get it done, as the SEC
would shut down the exchange. Also, you'll need to have the gold or whatever
in your possession to be safe.

Oh, and you're not too bright... if that wasn't obvious.

No, I prefer stuff like coal, oil, natural gas and things we will need
in a prolonged depression to live. Gold is at a value peek, might go
higher. But not knowing gold markets I tend to stay away. People
making real money at gold bought in 3 to 5 years ago.

I don't even own any Walmart, even though I love the company as I see
another round of household spending cuts coming. Middle class is
starving for cash they don't have. This will reduce discretionay
spending even further. But at the right time, after the big collapse,
might find myslef buying shares Walmart.

On 24/01/2010 11:18 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 24/01/2010 6:35 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 24/01/2010 3:57 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 15:02:26 -0500,
wrote:

Chinese are tightening their credit. I thinks Obama's problems just
got
worse. Especially if China wants some of that maturing US debt paid
off.


What happens if the USA just says, "No"?

Just curious.

Short answer ...
The dollar would be devalued and oil would cost more, among other
things.

Good answer, hyper inflation due to currency devaluation. And I really
think that is the liberal game plan. Has been for over 2 years as
nothing
else explains the mad-hatter direction of government other than pure
insanity, which may be true all the same. Here goes my view on how
government is thinking on this depression.

Government does not sees the problem as people not having money, they
see
homes in a recession pricing. It makes it attractive for a family to
toss
the keys to the banks and walk. Growth is needed to hide losses and
screw
ups.

Part of the plan is getting people to put all the money in seemingly
safe
places, T-bills, money market, cash places. At ultra low interest
rates.

Now lets say let the dollar fall by say 75% in a rapid period of time,
too
fast to move out of cash and sell t-bills etc. Just stop honoring debt,
just like Iceland just did. Who knows, they could be the pilot group.

So if one woke up and oil went from $80 barrel to $320 a barrel, the
government just devlaued it's $12 trillion dollar debt by 75%, as people
get wage increases in the inflation cycle, and money is stuck in low
interest, the currency debt and fiscal debt becomes depreciated on the
backs of people with money.

It is why I am in pure cash (can buy gold/stock/real-esate etc) on a
click. But will not touch a morgage mutual, t-bill or cd/gic with a 10
foot poll. I view lending right now as toxic. Even if it is lending to
government. The only way I would lend to government is with an infation
clause and 5% premium without taxation. Otherwie a brick of gold looks
pretty good.

Lets take a scenario, person A buys $1000 of oil, say 12.5 barrels of
it.
Person B buys a T-bill at a meaningless interest rate. Then the dollar
plumets as debt isn't honored against the currency itself.

Person A still has 12.5 barels of oil worth $4000. Person B has
$1000.10
that now can only purchase 1/4 of what it did not too long ago. Value
currency depreciation.

More people will get jobs if it goes far enough as then US goods become
cheap like Chinese ones. Hyper inflation as coffee goes from $10 a tine
to $40, but government doesn't give a damn about retired and people,
they
are just to milk for statism. Wages will not keep up.

How this addresses housing is simple. If a home is $200K to build
today,
but is selling for $180K, and has a $200K morgage, after inflation it
changes to perhaps $500K to build and $400k to buy. No idiot will oss
the
keys for that sweet deal.

To understand government policy, it becomes easy once you realize they
are
the biggest meanist delinquent dysfunctional debtors going. A debt
monger
mindset and plent of self denial.

Time will tell, but in 2010 some time we should see a big move down in
USD
value. Big move actually. Probably in the later hald as the mini
recovery
bubble pops.



If you think hyperinflation is coming, claiming that you've got all cash
isn't exactly where you want to be. You should be complete in a precious
metals, since you may not be able to "click" and get it done, as the SEC
would shut down the exchange. Also, you'll need to have the gold or
whatever
in your possession to be safe.

Oh, and you're not too bright... if that wasn't obvious.

To you, not obvious. My generalization about cash is I am not going to
CD/GIC or loan it as a cash instrument, not even a money market and
certainly not bonds or some silly morgage mutual. I don't "invest in
cash" isn't the same as wanting some short term liquidity for
opportunities and portfolio rebalancing.

I have my reasons including if Obama drives the Dow to 8000 or lower it
might be a minor repeat of last year....and like last year have
opportunistic cash for the average in on the dip, its Obama's move. LOL.
Or perhaps buy some gold.

Just that China credit tightening and Japan banking with Obama chest
pounding sounds like trouble.

I don't think the US SEC can shut down a Canadian exchange. Have another
drink.


I definitely think you should put all your money in gold. Also, buy some
land in a remote place and live there.


The thought has occured to me. Would certainly guarantee my fiscal futures.

On 24/01/2010 11:20 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 24/01/2010 5:20 PM, thunder wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 15:02:26 -0500, Eisboch wrote:


What happens if the USA just says, "No"?

Just curious.

It would be one hell of a crash, and 5-10 very rough years, but then...
We'd have to get our own house in order, as no other country would want
to finance our overspending ways. Personally, I don't think it would be
all bad, but there are a lot easier ways to get our house in order. It
would be playing with fire, and you never know how burned we would get.

Iceland, Brazil, Zimbabwe, Venzuela, Argentina, Germany pre WW II all have
some history on this. Generally not good for the standard of living which
drops signifigantly. How far it drops depends a lot on the size of the
default. $2 trillion ot the Chinese, you will notice it big time.
Especially if the Saudis want Euros for USDs on the value drop --
could happen very fast. Get the Japanese banks to drop in the middle
being a major holder of US debt... all hell could break loose when the
germany banks fall.

Just waiting for the music to stop.


Please keep waiting (can you do this quietly?) Get back to us when the sky
starts falling.

You sound like Mike Hnter over in GM group area, LOL.

He is just a loser GM zealot. Been wrong so many times he is hopeless.