On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:01:50 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:40:09 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:



One of my doctors is an Iranian immigrant and once, when we had some
time to kill for one reason or another, I asked her why she still wore
the hijab (head scarf) after all these years of living in the US. What
she said was very interesting. She tried to stop wearing the hijab
during med school - to kind of blend in as she put it, but was very
uncomfortable if only because the hijab represented, to her, concepts
of modesty, privacy, and morality at a personal level. She understood
the concept of freedom of choice, but this was a cultural thing - she
explained it this way - even though she is a non-practicing Muslim
(actually she's rather agnostic), married to an American (former
All-American from Brandeis - I didn't dare ask her if he was Jewish),
basically non-religious, the head covering represented something that
she was comfortable with. What she did say, though, which really was
intriguing is that in America, she had the choice to wear it or not -
in Iran, there was no choice. It meant as much to her to have the
choice as it did to actually wear it.

In part, that's what we're fighting - ingrained cultural ethics and
morality in addition to religious fanaticism.

Excellent example. But all that must be changed if we hope to serve
McRibs in Afghanistan or Iran.
Personally, whether I care for a culture or not, I respect it.
Cultures don't happen by accident.

True and all cultures have their ugly side and their beautiful side.
When I think of Islam (generic Islam), I think of mathematics,
navigation, architectural wonders, trade and commerce in addition to
5th Century barbarism, cruelty and that horror of horrors - theocracy.

We have our analogs in Western society also - this isn't an us vs them
kind of comparison. Western society can be as vicious and barbaric as
any seen on the face of the planet - but Western societies at least
try to incorporate the social out riders and/or adjust for them. That
is'nt necessarily so in other societies.

"TopBassDog" wrote in message
...
You oppose womens' rights?

I support women's rights in this country but I don't think we have the
right to invade another country and impose our culture on them.

Tell that to Bush? Oh, too late....

It would have been cheaper to fly all the Afghani women who want their
rights here and buy them a nail salon.

Just a bit sexist, not to mention not much of an argument.

How many billion do you think we have wasted in Afghanistan for
virtually zero results? We have killed a lot of people but I don't
think we are a bit safer for it.

Thanks to Bush. Now we'll see what Obama can do.

I am old enough to remember the Vietnam rhetoric and it was basically
what we are hearing now. I was wrong then in supporting the war, I
don't want to be on the wrong side again.

It's a concern. My guess is that Obama has heard of VN.

--
Nom=de=Plume

You're blathers are becoming humourous.

I'm glad you're amused.

Yes, let's see what your President-elect can do. That is, if he will
do anything at all.

President elect? Ummmm.... are you posting from the past?

--
Nom=de=Plume

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 11:33:43 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:01:50 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:40:09 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:



One of my doctors is an Iranian immigrant and once, when we had some
time to kill for one reason or another, I asked her why she still wore
the hijab (head scarf) after all these years of living in the US. What
she said was very interesting. She tried to stop wearing the hijab
during med school - to kind of blend in as she put it, but was very
uncomfortable if only because the hijab represented, to her, concepts
of modesty, privacy, and morality at a personal level. She understood
the concept of freedom of choice, but this was a cultural thing - she
explained it this way - even though she is a non-practicing Muslim
(actually she's rather agnostic), married to an American (former
All-American from Brandeis - I didn't dare ask her if he was Jewish),
basically non-religious, the head covering represented something that
she was comfortable with. What she did say, though, which really was
intriguing is that in America, she had the choice to wear it or not -
in Iran, there was no choice. It meant as much to her to have the
choice as it did to actually wear it.

In part, that's what we're fighting - ingrained cultural ethics and
morality in addition to religious fanaticism.

Excellent example. But all that must be changed if we hope to serve
McRibs in Afghanistan or Iran.
Personally, whether I care for a culture or not, I respect it.
Cultures don't happen by accident.

True and all cultures have their ugly side and their beautiful side.
When I think of Islam (generic Islam), I think of mathematics,
navigation, architectural wonders, trade and commerce in addition to
5th Century barbarism, cruelty and that horror of horrors - theocracy.

We have our analogs in Western society also - this isn't an us vs them
kind of comparison. Western society can be as vicious and barbaric as
any seen on the face of the planet - but Western societies at least
try to incorporate the social out riders and/or adjust for them. That
is'nt necessarily so in other societies.

Unfortunately, the Republican President just past DID see it as us vs.
them. The record is now shows he and his cabinet allied with a group
of thugs who had a definite crusade, Jesus vs. Mohammed agenda.

They don't want McFood in their world and we should respect that.

wrote:
On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:05:53 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

The left has taken to calling Afghanistan "Obama's Vietnam." Well, if
we're going to let troops die as part of a PR stunt, then yes, it does
begin to resemble Vietnam.

Either we're going to give our troops every advantage in an effort to
allow them to win or we should, in fact, get out. If Obama has in mind
a Nixon-style "decent interval" where we are going to let troops be
killed in an effort not to win a war but to simply contrive a
politically-palatable "defeat with honor," then get them out of there.


I say, get them out of there. We have nothing to gain by staying.

If we really wanted to get Bin Laden the best way would have been to
ignore him until he stuck his head up and then just send in a small
team to shoot him.
We should have bombed Afghanistan with school supplies and other aid
after the Soviets left. They would have handed Bin Laden's head to us
on a plate.

I really wonder how much of this is driven by women's rights groups
and drug warriors.

Ever read the book, "Three Cups of Tea?" That's exactly what the author
did, bomb them with schools and supplies.

A well worth read. Should be read by those who disagree, though.

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 14:01:05 -0700, Jim wrote:



Ever read the book, "Three Cups of Tea?" That's exactly what the author
did, bomb them with schools and supplies.

A well worth read. Should be read by those who disagree, though.

Sounds interesting. Ever hear of "The Ugly American?"
Read that in the early '60's.
Basically about the commie threat in VN and playing local culture in a
human, understanding way.
One part I remembered being impressed with was how the hero American
noted that the village women got hunchbacks as they aged - because
they were using short reed brooms to sweep.
He attached long sticks to the reeds to modernize their cleaning
habits and prevent future hunchbacking.
Though ugly physically, the hero was beautiful in thought and motive.
Later as I became educated I saw that though there are different
cultures, most humans are pretty much the same.
Thinking back to that book I realized the broom stuff was pure
bull**** - and condescending.
In the theme of the book it wasn't meant to be.
But it was.
The biggest danger in trying to change a culture is condescension.
Folks don't take kindly to that. And arrogance can make it hard to
recognize in oneself.
That's why I stay away from interfering or resisting other cultures,
but just try to appreciate what I can.
Maybe it can work when the locals go outside and come back to do it
themselves.
But I'm not much for nation building. Except by example.

--Vic

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 14:01:05 -0700, Jim wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:05:53 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

The left has taken to calling Afghanistan "Obama's Vietnam." Well, if
we're going to let troops die as part of a PR stunt, then yes, it does
begin to resemble Vietnam.

Either we're going to give our troops every advantage in an effort to
allow them to win or we should, in fact, get out. If Obama has in mind
a Nixon-style "decent interval" where we are going to let troops be
killed in an effort not to win a war but to simply contrive a
politically-palatable "defeat with honor," then get them out of there.


I say, get them out of there. We have nothing to gain by staying.

If we really wanted to get Bin Laden the best way would have been to
ignore him until he stuck his head up and then just send in a small
team to shoot him.
We should have bombed Afghanistan with school supplies and other aid
after the Soviets left. They would have handed Bin Laden's head to us
on a plate.

I really wonder how much of this is driven by women's rights groups
and drug warriors.

Ever read the book, "Three Cups of Tea?" That's exactly what the author
did, bomb them with schools and supplies.

A well worth read. Should be read by those who disagree, though.

Could easily defeat the Taliban and al Qaeda with this method. But we
don't make any money if we don't sell bombs and bullets. It's our
national franchise!

Vic Smith wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 14:01:05 -0700, Jim wrote:


Ever read the book, "Three Cups of Tea?" That's exactly what the author
did, bomb them with schools and supplies.

A well worth read. Should be read by those who disagree, though.

Sounds interesting. Ever hear of "The Ugly American?"
Read that in the early '60's.
Basically about the commie threat in VN and playing local culture in a
human, understanding way.
One part I remembered being impressed with was how the hero American
noted that the village women got hunchbacks as they aged - because
they were using short reed brooms to sweep.
He attached long sticks to the reeds to modernize their cleaning
habits and prevent future hunchbacking.
Though ugly physically, the hero was beautiful in thought and motive.
Later as I became educated I saw that though there are different
cultures, most humans are pretty much the same.
Thinking back to that book I realized the broom stuff was pure
bull**** - and condescending.
In the theme of the book it wasn't meant to be.
But it was.
The biggest danger in trying to change a culture is condescension.
Folks don't take kindly to that. And arrogance can make it hard to
recognize in oneself.
That's why I stay away from interfering or resisting other cultures,
but just try to appreciate what I can.
Maybe it can work when the locals go outside and come back to do it
themselves.
But I'm not much for nation building. Except by example.

--Vic

Since you can buy a used one for $4.85, I'd say it was money well spent.
This book IS about defeating the Taliban and how to actually win in
Afghanistan.

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Cups-Tea...2624677&sr=1-1

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 14:57:09 -0700, jps wrote:

If we really wanted to get Bin Laden the best way would have been to
ignore him until he stuck his head up and then just send in a small
team to shoot him.
We should have bombed Afghanistan with school supplies and other aid
after the Soviets left. They would have handed Bin Laden's head to us
on a plate.

I really wonder how much of this is driven by women's rights groups
and drug warriors.

Ever read the book, "Three Cups of Tea?" That's exactly what the author
did, bomb them with schools and supplies.

A well worth read. Should be read by those who disagree, though.

Could easily defeat the Taliban and al Qaeda with this method. But we
don't make any money if we don't sell bombs and bullets. It's our
national franchise!

These days, arms are about the only thing we build here for export.
Hell, the Chinese are even knocking off our M-14s and M-16s.


?? Something has changed..

$1.283 trillion f.o.b. (2008)

industrial supplies, 29.8%; production machinery, 29.5%; non-auto consumer
goods, 12.4%; motor vehicles and parts, 9.3%; food, feed and beverages,
8.3%; aircraft and parts, 6.6%; other, 4.1%. (2008)

--
Nom=de=Plume

On Sep 10, 12:07*pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"TopBassDog" wrote in message

...



You oppose womens' rights?

I support women's rights in this country but I don't think we have the
right to invade another country and impose our culture on them.

Tell that to Bush? Oh, too late....

It would have been cheaper to fly all the Afghani women who want their
rights here and buy them a nail salon.

Just a bit sexist, not to mention not much of an argument.

How many billion do you think we have wasted in Afghanistan for
virtually zero results? We have killed a lot of people but I don't
think we are a bit safer for it.

Thanks to Bush. Now we'll see what Obama can do.

I am old enough to remember the Vietnam rhetoric and it was basically
what we are hearing now. I was wrong then in supporting the war, I
don't want to be on the wrong side again.

It's a concern. My guess is that Obama has heard of VN.

--
Nom=de=Plume
You're blathers are becoming humourous.

I'm glad you're amused.

Yes, let's see what your President-elect can do. *That is, if he will
do anything at all.

President elect? Ummmm.... are you posting from the past?

--
Nom=de=Plume

Pennie, would you prefer "President-appointed?"

"TopBassDog" wrote in message
...
Yes, let's see what your President-elect can do. That is, if he will
do anything at all.

President elect? Ummmm.... are you posting from the past?

--
Nom=de=Plume

Pennie, would you prefer "President-appointed?"

I would prefer the facts of which you seem to be lacking. Who exactly
appointed Pres. Obama?



--
Nom=de=Plume