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Bridge loan to nowhere..
RG wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in message ... On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 12:46:42 -0700, "RG" wrote: "Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in message ... On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 14:20:58 -0500, Boater wrote: Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 12:21:14 -0500, Boater wrote: We've handed out close to a trillion dollars to the Wall Street and banking industries, and for what? We'll get nothing out of that. Not even a lousy car. Tell me just out of curiosity - what model car do you drive? How about your wife? Why do you ask? I don't fault the UAW or organized workers for the crappiness of some of the cars US producers turn out. Just curious. It's a Toyota. Really. ~Snerk~ That's what I thought. Made down South with non-Union labor. Do as I say - not as I do. Typical. He wants to save a company from which he won't buy a car because of quality issues which is built by the very same Union members he says are so important to the US. Instead he buys a car from a foreign company built in the US by non-Union labor. Now is that tortured thinking or what? -- Twisted. So much so that he couldn't even bring himself to directly an honestly answer your simple question. Please pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. You haven't been selling AIG-branded insurance, have you? |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
"Boater" wrote in message ... The quality issues have nothing to do with the workers who build the car, and everything to do with corporate management. That's right. I forgot. The union workers are paid to stay home while Rick Wagoner personally bolts the cars together. Eisboch |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 14:08:18 -0500, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
No - it was not caused by Wall Street - it was caused by two outsized factors - the first was the speculative oil bubble which placed an absurd tax the average American who suddenly had limited funds due to the increased costs of fuel and fuel oil. The second factor was the refusal of the FED and Treasury Department to back up Bear Stearns - which was a solvent company with plenty of assets that had run into liquidity because of ourside pressure on it's stock. Live by leverage, die by leverage. Bear Stearns was only solvent went times were good. When you leverage yourself 35 to 1, you go bye, bye, when things get tight. GM had been in trouble for years prior to the collapse. I'm not denying GM has been in trouble, I'm only arguing the present financial meltdown brought it into crisis. With respect to Obamessiah's New New Deal, the original New Deal was a joke and strictly make work. This isn't going to work either because it's a SOP to the construction unions to keep their members busy - screw everybody else. Tell me - what's an average factory worker make building solar panels. Have any idea? How about a truck driver - non Union? How about a flag waver for traffic control. The guy who runs the paver, the roller, the bridge steel worker. Is Obama going to give all these people the same rate of pay regardless of what they do? How is he giong to control the cost? Is it going to be privately contracted or government contracted? How about the engineers, the surveyors, the cost managers, accountants and lawyers - they all going to be paid at the same rate as professionals? It's a joke - you know it, I know it. That's the difference, I don't see this as a joke. We are in recession, and it looks like a serious one to me. Let GM go down, and we are talking depression. That's no joke. Many of us will survive financially, but what about the social upheavals? The last depression brought us facists, communists, unions, all warring for a piece of the pie. Hell, we even had a Dupont planning a coup. No thanks. Frankly, I don't give a damn about GM. During normal times, I'd say let them go under, but in these times, I think the risk of letting them fail is too big. The bridge *loan* they are talking about is 1/10 what we have already spent on Wall Street, and only a couple of months of the spending we've been doing in Iraq for years. |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message ... The quality issues have nothing to do with the workers who build the car, and everything to do with corporate management. That's right. I forgot. The union workers are paid to stay home while Rick Wagoner personally bolts the cars together. Eisboch Unless things have changed drastically since I last visited an autoplant, virtually every decision on who does what with what and for how long is determined by management. Design is determined by management. Tools are decided by management. Training is decided by management. Materials are decided by management. Assembly line speed is decided by management. |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
wrote in message t... That's the difference, I don't see this as a joke. We are in recession, and it looks like a serious one to me. Let GM go down, and we are talking depression. That's no joke. Many of us will survive financially, but what about the social upheavals? The last depression brought us facists, communists, unions, all warring for a piece of the pie. Hell, we even had a Dupont planning a coup. No thanks. Frankly, I don't give a damn about GM. During normal times, I'd say let them go under, but in these times, I think the risk of letting them fail is too big. The bridge *loan* they are talking about is 1/10 what we have already spent on Wall Street, and only a couple of months of the spending we've been doing in Iraq for years. I know you were addressing Tom, but I wanted to also respond. I am not opposed to a bridge loan. I'd just like to see it tied to a genuine requirement on the part of GM to change their ways. Otherwise, the money is completely wasted. That's why I still think it should be done with strong oversight, such as that in Chapter 11. I don't point the finger of distrust or blame at management or the labor union. I just think there are so many years of adversarial distrust between them that they need an arbitrator to fairly and efficiently reorganize the company. One thing I don't get, and maybe one of you guys more familiar with unions can explain. As I understand it, the UAW represents workers at all three Detroit automakers, meaning GM, Ford, and Chrysler. Why is it that Ford has been more successful in lowering per unit costs, while actively revamping their product line? The latest automotive reviews rates the newer Ford products as being equal or in some cases better than their Toyota and Honda counterparts, quality wise and Ford is in the least amount of trouble financially. Does each auto manufacturer negotiate different contracts with the UAW in terms of pay, benefits and retirement packages? Eisboch |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message t... That's the difference, I don't see this as a joke. We are in recession, and it looks like a serious one to me. Let GM go down, and we are talking depression. That's no joke. Many of us will survive financially, but what about the social upheavals? The last depression brought us facists, communists, unions, all warring for a piece of the pie. Hell, we even had a Dupont planning a coup. No thanks. Frankly, I don't give a damn about GM. During normal times, I'd say let them go under, but in these times, I think the risk of letting them fail is too big. The bridge *loan* they are talking about is 1/10 what we have already spent on Wall Street, and only a couple of months of the spending we've been doing in Iraq for years. I know you were addressing Tom, but I wanted to also respond. I am not opposed to a bridge loan. I'd just like to see it tied to a genuine requirement on the part of GM to change their ways. Otherwise, the money is completely wasted. That's why I still think it should be done with strong oversight, such as that in Chapter 11. I don't point the finger of distrust or blame at management or the labor union. I just think there are so many years of adversarial distrust between them that they need an arbitrator to fairly and efficiently reorganize the company. One thing I don't get, and maybe one of you guys more familiar with unions can explain. As I understand it, the UAW represents workers at all three Detroit automakers, meaning GM, Ford, and Chrysler. Why is it that Ford has been more successful in lowering per unit costs, while actively revamping their product line? The latest automotive reviews rates the newer Ford products as being equal or in some cases better than their Toyota and Honda counterparts, quality wise and Ford is in the least amount of trouble financially. Does each auto manufacturer negotiate different contracts with the UAW in terms of pay, benefits and retirement packages? If you focus your efforts on designing out the flaws on the areas that will cost you the most to fix in warranty repair then you will reduce your costs the most. |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
"Boater" wrote in message ... RG wrote: "Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in message ... On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 12:46:42 -0700, "RG" wrote: "Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in message ... On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 14:20:58 -0500, Boater wrote: Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 12:21:14 -0500, Boater wrote: We've handed out close to a trillion dollars to the Wall Street and banking industries, and for what? We'll get nothing out of that. Not even a lousy car. Tell me just out of curiosity - what model car do you drive? How about your wife? Why do you ask? I don't fault the UAW or organized workers for the crappiness of some of the cars US producers turn out. Just curious. It's a Toyota. Really. ~Snerk~ That's what I thought. Made down South with non-Union labor. Do as I say - not as I do. Typical. He wants to save a company from which he won't buy a car because of quality issues which is built by the very same Union members he says are so important to the US. Instead he buys a car from a foreign company built in the US by non-Union labor. Now is that tortured thinking or what? -- Twisted. So much so that he couldn't even bring himself to directly an honestly answer your simple question. Please pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. You haven't been selling AIG-branded insurance, have you? Your hypocrisy knows no bounds, dip****. "I refuse to buy products made in China" Guess where your MacBook came from, numbnutz. "I refuse to shop at Wal-Mart" Unless they've got a deal on an HP printer. "I support the UAW" Except when it comes to what I park in my driveway. It never ends with you. I can't even imagine how much it must suck to be you. And you're right. We don't know what Karen drives. All we know is that it apparently isn't fast enough to get the **** away from you. At what point in your life did you come to the conclusion that truth and integrity have no value whatsoever? |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
"Eisboch" wrote in message ... "BAR" wrote in message ... wrote: Obama's already talking about major infrastructure spending with the intent of creating jobs. It seems to me, saving GM's jobs, might in the long run, be cheaper. Where is the money coming from to pay for those infrastructure projects? In this recession the government doesn't have the revenue to pay for these extra projects. With the cost of oil dropping like a rock The Obama cannot raid the oil companies for "wind-fall-profits" and the worst thing The Obama can do is raise taxes on anyone. Nope, and this has been something I've learned as I watch and listen to and about this mess. The government can write checks forever. They print the money. Eventually, hyper-inflation will come along and bite us in the ass, but right now most of the left leaning economic experts are saying, "We'll deal with that when the time comes". Eisboch I have some German pre-war 500,000DM paper. Want to buy some, cheap? 80 |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 18:07:45 -0500, Eisboch wrote:
I know you were addressing Tom, but I wanted to also respond. I am not opposed to a bridge loan. I'd just like to see it tied to a genuine requirement on the part of GM to change their ways. Otherwise, the money is completely wasted. That's why I still think it should be done with strong oversight, such as that in Chapter 11. I think we are on the same page. GM clearly needs to get the message. Hell, the board just gave Wagoner a vote of confidence. As I said, I'm not concerned with GM near as much as I'm concerned with what GM's failure could do to the rest of the economy. We need to get some confidence back in the system. I think there are better ways than Chapter 11, but I would accept a Chapter 11 solution. I just don't think, at this moment, this economy could sustain a GM failure. I don't point the finger of distrust or blame at management or the labor union. I just think there are so many years of adversarial distrust between them that they need an arbitrator to fairly and efficiently reorganize the company. There is still some of that, but they have come a long way since the Japanese invasion. In the last contract, the union instituted a two tier system, where new hires get paid less. If I'm not mistaken, labor costs per vehicle a getting quite similar, especially since the foreign plants are starting to have retirees. One thing I don't get, and maybe one of you guys more familiar with unions can explain. As I understand it, the UAW represents workers at all three Detroit automakers, meaning GM, Ford, and Chrysler. I think it's more competent management than anything else. I'm not sure, but I don't believe the UAW contracts with the different companies are the same, though. They are similar, but not the same. I remember reading somewhere, that Ford doesn't make any money manufacturing autos, they make their money financing autos. If that's the case, GM sold 1/2 of GMAC to Cerebrus. That also may account for some of the differences. Why is it that Ford has been more successful in lowering per unit costs, while actively revamping their product line? The latest automotive reviews rates the newer Ford products as being equal or in some cases better than their Toyota and Honda counterparts, quality wise and Ford is in the least amount of trouble financially. Does each auto manufacturer negotiate different contracts with the UAW in terms of pay, benefits and retirement packages? See above, but don't take it to the bank. ;-) |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
"Boater" wrote in message ... Eisboch wrote: "Boater" wrote in message ... The quality issues have nothing to do with the workers who build the car, and everything to do with corporate management. That's right. I forgot. The union workers are paid to stay home while Rick Wagoner personally bolts the cars together. Eisboch Unless things have changed drastically since I last visited an autoplant, virtually every decision on who does what with what and for how long is determined by management. Design is determined by management. Tools are decided by management. Training is decided by management. Materials are decided by management. Assembly line speed is decided by management. And a major portion of the assembly is done by robots. And here we have the root of the problem. Back in the late 70's and early 80's as Nissan, Toyota and Honda started chipping away at Detroit's market share, the Japanese cars were being built on new, modern, automated assembly lines. They didn't have unions to get ****ed off about it. Detroit, not to be left behind, started automating their lines as well, developing robotic systems to do the work of people. I remember this well, because industrial programmable logic controllers (PLC), built by Texas Instruments, were initially prohibited by the UAW contracts because the description of the PLC included the words "microprocessor" and "computer". The UAW contract prohibited line workers from being replaced by a "computer". So, the plan was withdrawn for a while, then re-introduced and the logic controller was called a "PLC". But anyway, that's when the downfall started. Automation was resisted and contract negotiations became very adversarial over the years. Ridiculous contract clauses were agreed to, because sales were still good, money was being made and management was focused on trying to avoid the numerous strikes that occurred anyway. Remember? Eisboch |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
RG wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message ... RG wrote: "Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in message ... On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 12:46:42 -0700, "RG" wrote: "Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in message ... On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 14:20:58 -0500, Boater wrote: Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 12:21:14 -0500, Boater wrote: We've handed out close to a trillion dollars to the Wall Street and banking industries, and for what? We'll get nothing out of that. Not even a lousy car. Tell me just out of curiosity - what model car do you drive? How about your wife? Why do you ask? I don't fault the UAW or organized workers for the crappiness of some of the cars US producers turn out. Just curious. It's a Toyota. Really. ~Snerk~ That's what I thought. Made down South with non-Union labor. Do as I say - not as I do. Typical. He wants to save a company from which he won't buy a car because of quality issues which is built by the very same Union members he says are so important to the US. Instead he buys a car from a foreign company built in the US by non-Union labor. Now is that tortured thinking or what? -- Twisted. So much so that he couldn't even bring himself to directly an honestly answer your simple question. Please pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. You haven't been selling AIG-branded insurance, have you? Your hypocrisy knows no bounds, dip****. "I refuse to buy products made in China" Guess where your MacBook came from, numbnutz. "I refuse to shop at Wal-Mart" Unless they've got a deal on an HP printer. "I support the UAW" Except when it comes to what I park in my driveway. It never ends with you. I can't even imagine how much it must suck to be you. And you're right. We don't know what Karen drives. All we know is that it apparently isn't fast enough to get the **** away from you. At what point in your life did you come to the conclusion that truth and integrity have no value whatsoever? Sorry, numnuts, but I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart in decades, either in a store or via the internet. As for my laptop, the box it came in said "Made in Singapore." I don't think that referred to the box. I doubt many laptops are made in the USA these days. Can you verify a line of laptops with say 80% of more of U.S. made content? And you don't know what is in my driveway. So, how did AIG work for you? Still getting residuals on the overpriced crap you sold to unsuspecting purchasers of "insurance"? |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
D.Duck wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message ... "BAR" wrote in message ... wrote: Obama's already talking about major infrastructure spending with the intent of creating jobs. It seems to me, saving GM's jobs, might in the long run, be cheaper. Where is the money coming from to pay for those infrastructure projects? In this recession the government doesn't have the revenue to pay for these extra projects. With the cost of oil dropping like a rock The Obama cannot raid the oil companies for "wind-fall-profits" and the worst thing The Obama can do is raise taxes on anyone. Nope, and this has been something I've learned as I watch and listen to and about this mess. The government can write checks forever. They print the money. Eventually, hyper-inflation will come along and bite us in the ass, but right now most of the left leaning economic experts are saying, "We'll deal with that when the time comes". Eisboch I have some German pre-war 500,000DM paper. Want to buy some, cheap? 80 I have about a million pesos somewhere. Big chunky coins. Not the ones that gained in value. I do have some coins with value, though. I visit them once a year at the bank vault, say hello, and tuck them in for another year of sleep. |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote: wrote in message t... On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 23:59:58 -0500, Eisboch wrote: A Chapter 11 filing does not, in itself, reorganize a company and certainly is *not* a means for "getting people to do the same things, only cheaper". All it does is protects the company from involuntary bankrupcy by putting the vendor bill collectors, banks and lawsuits at bay while an effort is made to reorganize and satisfy current finanical obligations via negotiation. While protected in Chapter 11 a plan is developed to reorganize, refinance, and re-negotiate existing (and in GM's case - obsolete) contracts. Overseen by a bankruptcy court, the plan, agreed to by all concerned parties is generated and when implimentated, the company emerges from Chapter 11. If a plan cannot be produced that is approved by all concerned parties, the company usually goes belly up in Chapter 7. Sure, but the end result is "getting people to do the same thing, only cheaper". Let me ask you something, does the bankruptcy court take into consideration America's interests? Under normal circumstances, I would readily agree GM should go Chapter 11, but these are not normal circumstances. We are in recession, and it's looking like it could be a severe one. Personally, I don't think we can afford to let GM go into bankruptcy at this time. Barney Frank's bill limits the ability to truly reorganize the auto companies. It's simply throwing money into the same sink hole. Six-eight months from now they'll be back, needing more survival money. The auto industry's contracts and historical ways of doing business need a complete overhauling in order to be a viable, competitive entity in today's global markets. Chapter 11 reorganization, prepackaged with a government bridge loan to keep the beast breathing during the process, makes sense to me. You know, we have already spent $350 billion to bail out the *******s that caused this mess. We've let them keep their millions in bonuses, but we're quibbling about spending 1/10 of that to save an industry that provides 1-3 million jobs. I don't get it. And, I would point out, it was the incompetence of Wall Street that brought Detroit's troubles into crisis. Obama's already talking about major infrastructure spending with the intent of creating jobs. It seems to me, saving GM's jobs, might in the long run, be cheaper. I would respectfully suggest that your last sentence underscores where I think you (and others) are wrong. Saving GM's jobs doesn't fix GM's problems. GM does not, and has not for a long time, (predating the current economic meltdown), sold enough vehicles to be profitable and justify their current bloated structure. GM's crisis was coming anyway. The meltdown accelerated it and presented an opportunity to pick up some TARP money. It's time to face the music and do what is necessary to save *any* jobs at GM and related industry businesses. That cannot be done internally through GM management and the UAW. There's too much history and tradition of the "good old days". It will take a Chapter 11 filing (with preconditions and government support) to fix it. Eisboch You know, by generally accepted accounting standards, the federal government is broke, bankrupt, even, though it does have the ability to borrow and print money. I say if the auto industry is allowed to back out of paying agreed upon and contracted pension and health benefits to retirees, then the federal government should do the same with its civilian and military retirees. If that were proposed, my suspicion is that those who depend upon federal civilian and military pensions and benefits would object mightily. The point is, the retirees planned around the contracted benefits and depend upon them. Problem is, in the private sector, corporate thieves were allowed to pile up unfunded liabilities in order to help cook their books. We've handed out close to a trillion dollars to the Wall Street and banking industries, and for what? We'll get nothing out of that. Not even a lousy car. Bail out GM and chances are you will get a lousy car. Oh wait. You don't buy american cars, do you? |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
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Bridge loan to nowhere..
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 18:06:36 -0500, Boater
wrote: Eisboch wrote: "Boater" wrote in message ... The quality issues have nothing to do with the workers who build the car, and everything to do with corporate management. That's right. I forgot. The union workers are paid to stay home while Rick Wagoner personally bolts the cars together. Unless things have changed drastically since I last visited an autoplant, virtually every decision on who does what with what and for how long is determined by management. Design is determined by management. Tools are decided by management. Training is decided by management. Materials are decided by management. Assembly line speed is decided by management. Then what does the Union do? And by the way, you never answered my question. Why did you buy a foreign car built by non-Union labor in the US? Smacks of hyprocrisy don't you think? -- "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." H. L. Mencken |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:51:16 -0600, wrote: Frankly, I don't give a damn about GM. During normal times, I'd say let them go under, but in these times, I think the risk of letting them fail is too big. The bridge *loan* they are talking about is 1/10 what we have already spent on Wall Street, and only a couple of months of the spending we've been doing in Iraq for years. I understand and I don't think it's funny at all - it is very serious. However, I've been through this - I'm, and you, are old enough to remember '56 which was as bad if not worse than now. We all survived, our father's got new jobs and life went on. Too bad we've lost more than a million jobs in the last year. But I am sure there are jobs aplenty for everyone, including the aging GM workforce. |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 18:06:36 -0500, Boater wrote: Eisboch wrote: "Boater" wrote in message ... The quality issues have nothing to do with the workers who build the car, and everything to do with corporate management. That's right. I forgot. The union workers are paid to stay home while Rick Wagoner personally bolts the cars together. Unless things have changed drastically since I last visited an autoplant, virtually every decision on who does what with what and for how long is determined by management. Design is determined by management. Tools are decided by management. Training is decided by management. Materials are decided by management. Assembly line speed is decided by management. Then what does the Union do? And by the way, you never answered my question. Why did you buy a foreign car built by non-Union labor in the US? Smacks of hyprocrisy don't you think? -- Traditionally, manufacturing unions negotiate to improve the wages, hours, working conditions and benefits of their members. In progressive countries abroad and at some plants here, they do more. The construction unions are significantly different in scope, as are the professional unions, such as teachers' unions. My understanding is that the Toyota we have was not built by non-union workers in the USA. Why did I choose it? Because at the time I purchased it, the corresponding Ford and GM vehicles were too large. |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:38:05 -0500, Boater
wrote: Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:51:16 -0600, wrote: Frankly, I don't give a damn about GM. During normal times, I'd say let them go under, but in these times, I think the risk of letting them fail is too big. The bridge *loan* they are talking about is 1/10 what we have already spent on Wall Street, and only a couple of months of the spending we've been doing in Iraq for years. I understand and I don't think it's funny at all - it is very serious. However, I've been through this - I'm, and you, are old enough to remember '56 which was as bad if not worse than now. We all survived, our father's got new jobs and life went on. Too bad we've lost more than a million jobs in the last year. But I am sure there are jobs aplenty for everyone, including the aging GM workforce. Probably are - at Toyota so they can build cars for guys like you who say one thing and do another. You now, being a big time Union backer and flack..er..writer/editor, I'm surprized that you haven't have your tires slashed and your windows broken when you visit all these auto plants and Union job sites you keep talking about. Don't your fellow Unionists support the UAW? Or do they all drive Toyotas? -- "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." H. L. Mencken |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:28:01 -0500, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
Maybe it's because I see it as more black and white than others - it's not that I don't have empathy and sympathy for laid off workers - I do, believe me I honestly do. Hell, I know that, and didn't mean to insinuate anything else. We're just looking at this differently. Right now, I believe the economic situation it too perilous to allow GM to fail. It is difficult to defend GM. They have had plenty of warning to make the difficult decisions, and they didn't. As I have said, under normal circumstances, I'd let the market deal with them. From my perspective, eventually, several major car manufacturers are going to fail anyway. There seems to be a glut of manufacturers with very few open markets. But you know what - they expected the good times to keep on rolling and their bosses expected the good times to keep on rolling and guess what - the good times ain't rolling anymore. Pain is a great motivator. I've been there - not a dime to my name, fresh out of rehab, no home, no job, but I swore that would never happen again. I worked my ass off, obtained more education, Mrs. Wave worked an after school job for a few years - we scrimped, saved, invested and only bought one thing on credit - the property we now own. And that was paid off in ten years. We owe nothing, are comfortable and it's all because we took nothing for granted and planned for the future - good times and bad. We took responsibility for our own future. And that's what's missing here - we're asking the average taxpayer to keep GM's and the UAW's future sound while their own is on shaky ground. That's not fair. |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:38:05 -0500, Boater wrote: Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:51:16 -0600, wrote: Frankly, I don't give a damn about GM. During normal times, I'd say let them go under, but in these times, I think the risk of letting them fail is too big. The bridge *loan* they are talking about is 1/10 what we have already spent on Wall Street, and only a couple of months of the spending we've been doing in Iraq for years. I understand and I don't think it's funny at all - it is very serious. However, I've been through this - I'm, and you, are old enough to remember '56 which was as bad if not worse than now. We all survived, our father's got new jobs and life went on. Too bad we've lost more than a million jobs in the last year. But I am sure there are jobs aplenty for everyone, including the aging GM workforce. Probably are - at Toyota so they can build cars for guys like you who say one thing and do another. You now, being a big time Union backer and flack..er..writer/editor, I'm surprized that you haven't have your tires slashed and your windows broken when you visit all these auto plants and Union job sites you keep talking about. Don't your fellow Unionists support the UAW? Or do they all drive Toyotas? I only drive a Toyota down at the boat ramp. |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
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Bridge loan to nowhere..
On Dec 7, 8:08*pm, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote: On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:30:09 -0600, wrote: On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:28:01 -0500, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: Maybe it's because I see it as more black and white than others - it's not that I don't have empathy and sympathy for laid off workers - I do, believe me I honestly do. Hell, I know that, and didn't mean to insinuate anything else. *We're just looking at this differently. *Right now, I believe the economic situation it too perilous to allow GM to fail. *It is difficult to defend GM. *They have had plenty of warning to make the difficult decisions, and they didn't. *As I have said, under normal circumstances, I'd let the market deal with them. * Well, I'm glad it's not my decision. *It's easy for me to say what to do as I don't have any skin in the game. *:) From my perspective, eventually, several major car manufacturers are going to fail anyway. *There seems to be a glut of manufacturers with very few open markets. Every boom cycle has a bust cycle. *We're in a bust cycle. And, to tell the truth, there is still a lot right with the economy. It is the economic engine of the world and it will survive. *There is a safety net this time and there are concerned people who will work it all out eventually. It's just a matter of time. Quesiton of curiosity. are the big 3 beggers tanking in the US? or does this include their entire overseas operations as well. Reason I'm bringing this up is because Delphi chaptered a couple years ago here stateside, while in the mean time they were building a massivly huge mfg. facility in New Deli India. hmmmm. |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
"Eisboch" wrote in message ... Barney Frank's bill limits the ability to truly reorganize the auto companies. It's simply throwing money into the same sink hole. Six-eight months from now they'll be back, needing more survival money. Lets hope a dumb assed bill like this dies on the floor. The auto industry's contracts and historical ways of doing business need a complete overhauling in order to be a viable, competitive entity in today's global markets. Chapter 11 reorganization, prepackaged with a government bridge loan to keep the beast breathing during the process, makes sense to me. Eisboch That is as far as I would go. Maybe management is worried that once the government sees the books the SEC will roll in? To me, chapter 11 seems the valid route. So what if it lands in chapter 7 at a later time. GM isn't exactly that critical in the big picture. In fact, say GM does die outright. The Detroit buyers will shift their purchases to Ford and Chrysler keeping more of their people working. So what if GM makes more cars, what are they going to do? Store them on the Whitehouse lawn? They are not selling! Maybe seantors own too much JCI, GM or Cerberus? Best explanation I have. Over 1,000,000 people lost their jobs in the last few months, very few were actually auto workers. What makes these ******s so special and the rest can go to hell? Who is bailing out the majority? ------ New USSR - United States Socialist Republic - Loans on the government for free and the land of Government Motors. |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in message ... On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 23:59:58 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: The auto industry's contracts and historical ways of doing business need a complete overhauling in order to be a viable, competitive entity in today's global markets. Chapter 11 reorganization, prepackaged with a government bridge loan to keep the beast breathing during the process, makes sense to me. While I understand the idea, I don't want money going to GM. Ford doesn't want the money, just a backup which is one hell of a lot less expensive. Let GM sink. If they can't get through Chapter 11, tough. Let them go Chapter 7 and disappear. Ford, Toyota, Honda and others will take up the slack. Survival of the fittest. Agreed. To give you an idea how nasty the GM-UAW-CAW thing is follow this. Canada is having a crisis right now with interferance of its democracy. GM has asked Canada for $6.8 billion. The economic impact to Canada would be equivelent of about $70 billion US to the US taxpayer. It is believed GM-CAW calls up a socialist party and askes to get this money at any cost ASAP. The NDP makes a bribe to a separatist party known as the Bloc for their unmitigated support to over throw the current government. They agree. They then approach a minority opposition party called the Liberals that has a leader even Liberals don't like. He is in heat to become the Prime Minister of Canada with a junta coalition. Fortunately our PM and Govenor General narrowly avoid this coup d'etat. But they are about to try again after replacing the Liberal leader as 68% of the Canadians oppose the junta. That kind of majority hasn't been seen in over 100 years! There are many that would not accept a GM product for free, unless it was to burn it. Separation polls indicate if this hhappens, 64% of Albertans favor leaving confederation, which will inevitablly result in Canada as you know it breaking up. GM is screwing with your neighboors democracy, along the worlds most longest unprotected border to the north of you. I know the US is in crisis, but you don't want a natural resource source like Canada doing some leftist socialist Venzuela type nationalisation, you might want to consider the impact of this and slap GM hard into unitigated chapter 11 before they do more damage than you know. Fire the board and management while you are at it. There is no otehrs more deserving of being fired with cause than that lot. |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
"Eisboch" wrote in message ... "Canuck57" wrote in message ... "Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in message ... I still say that this is a great opportunity for some capital investment firm to step in and build a new car company from scratch designed to compete with Honda/Toyota, etc. I'd be willing to bet that it could be done, start to manufacturing and distribution, in less than five years. Chapter 11 would allow that to proceed. I wouldn't even doubt some billionaires' private equity cash is sitting and waiting and watching. But they know, to get the meaningful change needed to make GM viable, means they need chapter 11. There is also a mater of equity here. GM's market cap is what, $2.5 billion? GM is asking for $25 billion? WTF. In my books that makes their debt to equity obscenly stupid. No wonder that can't borrow a dime. One of the financial experts interviewed on CNN commented on this. He said that even if GM received the full requested government bailout ... *plus* an additional 50-75 billion that he figured will be necessary in the future, GM will still be an insolvent, bankrupt company. It makes absolutely no sense to pour money into it without stepping back and completely reorganizing it's business base. It will be painful for sure. Jobs will be lost. Benefits will be cut back. Dealerships will close. But reality *has* to be faced and the sooner it is done, the better chance it has of surviving. IMO, anyone who thinks that simply dumping billions of dollars into a company like GM is going to benefit anyone in the long run has lost touch with reality. Eisboch Please, I beg. Write your senator and congressman to tell them to force GM chapter 11 ASAP. They are screwing with Canadian politics in a bad way. Fortunately the junta failed, but they plan on trying again. |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:02:08 -0800, Tim wrote:
are the big 3 beggers tanking in the US? or does this include their entire overseas operations as well. Reason I'm bringing this up is because Delphi chaptered a couple years ago here stateside, while in the mean time they were building a massivly huge mfg. facility in New Deli India. GM has been pressuring their suppliers to use low cost countries such as India. http://www.allbusiness.com/management/3500893-1.html hmmmm. |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
wrote in message t... On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:28:01 -0500, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: Maybe it's because I see it as more black and white than others - it's not that I don't have empathy and sympathy for laid off workers - I do, believe me I honestly do. Hell, I know that, and didn't mean to insinuate anything else. We're just looking at this differently. Right now, I believe the economic situation it too perilous to allow GM to fail. It is difficult to defend GM. They have had plenty of warning to make the difficult decisions, and they didn't. As I have said, under normal circumstances, I'd let the market deal with them. From my perspective, eventually, several major car manufacturers are going to fail anyway. There seems to be a glut of manufacturers with very few open markets. Again, I think your last paragraph illuminates the problem and is the heart of the dilemma in terms of what to do. If you believe there are going to failures of some car manufacturers anyway due to over capacity, what sense does it make to pour money into prolonging the life of a very troubled and distressed company if it's eventual demise is all but certain? I think that is the situation in the case of GM and probably Chrysler as do many others. Furthermore, oil prices will eventually go up again. That factor, plus the focus on fuel efficient and alternative energy driven cars is going to change America's love affair and overall use of their cars. It's happening already. Cars will be less a part of our lives, driven fewer miles, used primarily for basic, necessary transportation and last longer. That's going to further diminish the market growth for "new" cars and particularly the ones that traditionally generate the highest profits. Regardless of how a company like GM manages to stay in business, they can't remain the goliath of a company they have been over the past 40 years. Jobs are going to be lost and vendor businesses are going to fail. Unemployment is rising everywhere. It's not just the automotive industry. Wouldn't it be better to invest billions of dollars into the creation of new businesses or the expansion of existing, but healthy businesses to create new jobs? Seems to me that route is better than pouring it into a bloated, obsolete organization that is likely to go belly-up anyway. Food for though: I am not working. I am unemployed. I am working on a plan to do something that will employ me and maybe 10 or 12 others in the course of the next 12-14 months if I am successful. There's about 11-13 new jobs. Multiply me by a 100,000 which is a tenth of the number laid off in the past two or three months. That's a lot of new jobs. No, it's *not* a plasma energy generator. :-) Eisboch |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
"Boater" wrote in message ... My understanding is that the Toyota we have was not built by non-union workers in the USA. Why did I choose it? Because at the time I purchased it, the corresponding Ford and GM vehicles were too large. I assume you bought a used Tundra. Eisboch |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 04:29:22 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:
Unemployment is rising everywhere. It's not just the automotive industry. Wouldn't it be better to invest billions of dollars into the creation of new businesses or the expansion of existing, but healthy businesses to create new jobs? Seems to me that route is better than pouring it into a bloated, obsolete organization that is likely to go belly-up anyway. All good points and something to consider - but they won't. Food for though: I am not working. I am unemployed. I am working on a plan to do something that will employ me and maybe 10 or 12 others in the course of the next 12-14 months if I am successful. There's about 11-13 new jobs. Multiply me by a 100,000 which is a tenth of the number laid off in the past two or three months. That's a lot of new jobs. Good luck. No, it's *not* a plasma energy generator. :-) Damn. Let me see - 10/12 - music interest - lots of musical goodies, Hammond B3.... I'VE GOT IT!!! Your going to form the new Blood, Sweat and Tears!!! |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:30:09 -0600, wrote:
From my perspective, eventually, several major car manufacturers are going to fail anyway. There seems to be a glut of manufacturers with very few open markets. You know - you have good points, I think I have good points, Dick has good points - we've all got some really good points. And then there's bull**** like this. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...0_favor07.html I mean seriously - the taxpayer gets f'd over everyday with crap like this -what's 34 billion to keep Union workers from not working at 95% of their base pay. Nothing. I've changed my mind - bail everybody out. I'm going to do something like Eisboch - start a new business and apply for a bail out six months down the road. What the heck - might as well get in on the deal. |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
On Dec 8, 5:32*am, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote: On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:30:09 -0600, wrote: From my perspective, eventually, several major car manufacturers are going to fail anyway. *There seems to be a glut of manufacturers with very few open markets. You know - you have good points, I think I have good points, Dick has good points - we've all got some really good points. And then there's bull**** like this. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...478150_favor07.... I mean seriously - the taxpayer gets f'd over everyday with crap like this -what's 34 billion to keep Union workers from not working at 95% of their base pay. Nothing. I've changed my mind - bail everybody out. *I'm going to do something like Eisboch - start a new business and apply for a bail out six months down the road. What the heck - might as well get in on the deal. Tom, I'd say to stand in line. it would probably be a long one at that. |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
Boater wrote:
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:51:16 -0600, wrote: Frankly, I don't give a damn about GM. During normal times, I'd say let them go under, but in these times, I think the risk of letting them fail is too big. The bridge *loan* they are talking about is 1/10 what we have already spent on Wall Street, and only a couple of months of the spending we've been doing in Iraq for years. I understand and I don't think it's funny at all - it is very serious. However, I've been through this - I'm, and you, are old enough to remember '56 which was as bad if not worse than now. We all survived, our father's got new jobs and life went on. Too bad we've lost more than a million jobs in the last year. But I am sure there are jobs aplenty for everyone, including the aging GM workforce. It is amazing that as the population increases and more of the youth come onto the rolls of job seekers that we don't have 50, 75 or 100 million people out of work. If we are to believe the naysayers then our percentage of jobless in the USA would increase over time without ever decreasing. The strange thing is that it keeps fluctuating between 4% and 7% regardless of the size of our population? Can you explain any of this Harry? |
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wrote:
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:02:08 -0800, Tim wrote: are the big 3 beggers tanking in the US? or does this include their entire overseas operations as well. Reason I'm bringing this up is because Delphi chaptered a couple years ago here stateside, while in the mean time they were building a massivly huge mfg. facility in New Deli India. GM has been pressuring their suppliers to use low cost countries such as India. http://www.allbusiness.com/management/3500893-1.html hmmmm. That is a cycle too. When India becomes too expensive manufacturing will move to other low cost geographical locations. You would be surprised where the current low cost high quality technical labor pool is today. |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
BAR wrote:
Boater wrote: Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:51:16 -0600, wrote: Frankly, I don't give a damn about GM. During normal times, I'd say let them go under, but in these times, I think the risk of letting them fail is too big. The bridge *loan* they are talking about is 1/10 what we have already spent on Wall Street, and only a couple of months of the spending we've been doing in Iraq for years. I understand and I don't think it's funny at all - it is very serious. However, I've been through this - I'm, and you, are old enough to remember '56 which was as bad if not worse than now. We all survived, our father's got new jobs and life went on. Too bad we've lost more than a million jobs in the last year. But I am sure there are jobs aplenty for everyone, including the aging GM workforce. It is amazing that as the population increases and more of the youth come onto the rolls of job seekers that we don't have 50, 75 or 100 million people out of work. If we are to believe the naysayers then our percentage of jobless in the USA would increase over time without ever decreasing. The strange thing is that it keeps fluctuating between 4% and 7% regardless of the size of our population? Can you explain any of this Harry? Of course. It is explained all the time. Perhaps if you stayed in school a bit longer... |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
BAR wrote:
Boater wrote: Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:38:05 -0500, Boater wrote: Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:51:16 -0600, wrote: Frankly, I don't give a damn about GM. During normal times, I'd say let them go under, but in these times, I think the risk of letting them fail is too big. The bridge *loan* they are talking about is 1/10 what we have already spent on Wall Street, and only a couple of months of the spending we've been doing in Iraq for years. I understand and I don't think it's funny at all - it is very serious. However, I've been through this - I'm, and you, are old enough to remember '56 which was as bad if not worse than now. We all survived, our father's got new jobs and life went on. Too bad we've lost more than a million jobs in the last year. But I am sure there are jobs aplenty for everyone, including the aging GM workforce. Probably are - at Toyota so they can build cars for guys like you who say one thing and do another. You now, being a big time Union backer and flack..er..writer/editor, I'm surprized that you haven't have your tires slashed and your windows broken when you visit all these auto plants and Union job sites you keep talking about. Don't your fellow Unionists support the UAW? Or do they all drive Toyotas? I only drive a Toyota down at the boat ramp. Typical hypocrite. What do you suggest I drive down at the boat ramp? |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 04:05:49 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote: On Dec 8, 5:32*am, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:30:09 -0600, wrote: From my perspective, eventually, several major car manufacturers are going to fail anyway. *There seems to be a glut of manufacturers with very few open markets. You know - you have good points, I think I have good points, Dick has good points - we've all got some really good points. And then there's bull**** like this. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...478150_favor07.... I mean seriously - the taxpayer gets f'd over everyday with crap like this -what's 34 billion to keep Union workers from not working at 95% of their base pay. Nothing. I've changed my mind - bail everybody out. *I'm going to do something like Eisboch - start a new business and apply for a bail out six months down the road. What the heck - might as well get in on the deal. Tom, I'd say to stand in line. it would probably be a long one at that. I just watched an interview on CNBC with the head of the UAW and the Vice CEO of GM. They still don't get it. It's amazing that these Union guys think it's due to them and the corporate bosses think they will do just fine. It's enough to make you puke. I've changed my mind again - screw 'em. Everytime they open their pie holes, they make a bigger mess to clean up. |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 04:32:22 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message ... My understanding is that the Toyota we have was not built by non-union workers in the USA. Why did I choose it? Because at the time I purchased it, the corresponding Ford and GM vehicles were too large. I assume you bought a used Tundra. Eisboch I believe he said he had a 4Runner. -- John H. |
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"JohnH" wrote in message ... On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 04:32:22 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: "Boater" wrote in message ... My understanding is that the Toyota we have was not built by non-union workers in the USA. Why did I choose it? Because at the time I purchased it, the corresponding Ford and GM vehicles were too large. I assume you bought a used Tundra. Eisboch I believe he said he had a 4Runner. -- John H. Oh. I was wrong. I thought he mentioned a Tundra. I assume it is an older, used model. Eisboch |
Bridge loan to nowhere..
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in message ... On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:30:09 -0600, wrote: From my perspective, eventually, several major car manufacturers are going to fail anyway. There seems to be a glut of manufacturers with very few open markets. You know - you have good points, I think I have good points, Dick has good points - we've all got some really good points. And then there's bull**** like this. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...0_favor07.html I mean seriously - the taxpayer gets f'd over everyday with crap like this -what's 34 billion to keep Union workers from not working at 95% of their base pay. Nothing. I've changed my mind - bail everybody out. I'm going to do something like Eisboch - start a new business and apply for a bail out six months down the road. What the heck - might as well get in on the deal. F 'em all, let's secede from the Union. |
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